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Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ?

Neo and MuradK .
Whereas I am becoming increasingly inclined towards A Cdre Dhotani, I still believe that The Red Baron was perhaps the best and most famous. MuradK Sahib, you have not commented on MM Alam. What did you think about him. Although the public fora are full of praise for him, could I possibly request your technical input regarding his career and capability.
Thanks in advance
Araz

Have you noticed that all are heros and legends of PAF never made it 2 stars or 3star, well in our days back in the 80s becoming a Air Cdre was a very big thing now in PAF we have more AVM's them Air Cdre's.
After 65, 71 one word Jealousy, If you take out the list of the officers who fought with valour in 65, 71 they all retired before time and some never got promoted. Another word ( Hum Piyala hum Niwaly) they did not like politics they were from a very different breed. When they found out that they need to lick the other guys balls to get promoted they said go to hell.
I can give you countless examples just take MM Alam in the aviation community every one knows him, you only need to wisper MM and they will say Alam. Take Cecil Chaudhry a hero who doesn't know him but never got promoted. I think at times PAF has not been fair with its heros.
MM Alam was is a great man I know him since we were at the academy, strap him up in an F-86 and he will Chew your *** in seconds he was without fear and that makes a fighter pilot very dangerous. I remember he got Court Marshalled for doing a victory roll in front of Shah of Iran during the Demo but was excused, later on he proved to the world in 65 what he can do. Every one who has a name in PAF has been Court Marshalled one time or the other but excused later for there services, all of them were young and Hot shots.
Let me give you a live example look back that the photo where MHk Dotani is shaking hands with the CAS of Bangladesh and Hakim sahib pointed him finger at Dotani and telling the bangladesh CAS about his Record, while he was talking look at the 3rd person standing at his left side no names just look at his face the way he is looking at Dotani. That explains everything.
 
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Have you noticed that all are heros and legends of PAF never made it 2 stars or 3star, well in our days back in the 80s becoming a Air Cdre was a very big thing now in PAF we have more AVM's them Air Cdre's.
After 65, 71 one word Jealousy, If you take out the list of the officers who fought with valour in 65, 71 they all retired before time and some never got promoted. Another word ( Hum Piyala hum Niwaly) they did not like politics they were from a very different breed. When they found out that they need to lick the other guys balls to get promoted they said go to hell.
I can give you countless examples just take MM Alam in the aviation community every one knows him, you only need to wisper MM and they will say Alam. Take Cecil Chaudhry a hero who doesn't know him but never got promoted. I think at times PAF has not been fair with its heros.
MM Alam was is a great man I know him since we were at the academy, strap him up in an F-86 and he will Chew your *** in seconds he was without fear and that makes a fighter pilot very dangerous. I remember he got Court Marshalled for doing a victory roll in front of Shah of Iran during the Demo but was excused, later on he proved to the world in 65 what he can do. Every one who has a name in PAF has been Court Marshalled one time or the other but excused later for there services, all of them were young and Hot shots.
Let me give you a live example look back that the photo where MHk Dotani is shaking hands with the CAS of Bangladesh and Hakim sahib pointed him finger at Dotani and telling the bangladesh CAS about his Record, while he was talking look at the 3rd person standing at his left side no names just look at his face the way he is looking at Dotani. That explains everything.

Dear Sir,
You have hit the hammer on the nail! i couldnt agree more with your assessment! we as a nation dont know how to honour our heroes.
 
Dear Sir,
You have hit the hammer on the nail! i couldnt agree more with your assessment! we as a nation dont know how to honour our heroes.

Sir I would venture to say that we as a nation do not know how to honour anything! Many who should have been recognized were marginalized, and those who deserved to be side tracked made it to places that one could not imagine them in...as such we have faced debacles like the war in 1971.
 
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And yet we honour all the thieves who loot and pillage the country.What a shame. Avery dear friend and just like an elder brother was in the infantry . Retired as a lt Colonel. He told Aslam Beg that he wanted to retire because he wanted to feed his children and that was very difficult on his salary. Aslam Beg wanted him to go to Staff college for further courses prior to promotion. This is the plight of an honest man in Pakistan.Sad state of affairs
Araz
 
Three Ace Brothers of Luftwaffe

Whenever we talk of best ever fighter pilots, we should not forget Adolf Galland. He holds the distinction of being the youngest general of either side of the WW-II.

While most of us know Galland for his 104 kills and rapid promotions, I want to point out one more thing. Thats related to his brothers. His two out of three brothers were also ace pilots called Wilhelm and Paul, with 54 and 17 kills respectively. This way, they became the three ace brothers in the world of military aviation.


Interview with World War II Luftwaffe General and Ace Pilot Adolf Galland » HistoryNet - From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher
 



B]Jorma Sarvanto and six kills in five minutes.
Written by Ossi Juntunen .
Above - a photo of destroyed DB-3 M bomber from 45th DBAP, January of 1940. In the text there is a snap of this story hero, luutnantti (Lt.) Jorma Kalevie Sarvanto, in cokpit of his Fokker D-XXI "FR-97".[/B]

Jorma Sarvanto was born in Turku, 22nd Aug. 1912, when Finland still was an autonomous Grand Duchy of the Russian Imperium. His father was Kaarle Konstantin Sarvanto, a patriot, tailor by trade and his mother Amanda Gustafsson.
Growing up in independent Finland, the young Sarvanto was interested in aviation and the glorious Aces of the First WW. He read all that he could find about von Richthofen, Ball, Guynemer and others. Participation in voluntary Civil Guard duty strengthened the patriotism of the young man, taught him to shoot and prepared him for military career.
As a person, he was described by his fellow pilots as introverted, pensive and calm - he was an exception among the more extroverted fighter pilots. His nickname was "Zamba" due to his musical hobby: he played saxophone and could use a guitar, too.
His flight commander estimated him as follows: "Lt. Sarvanto is by character considerate yet not slow, conscientious and has a military bearing." He also was found fit to be a division leader.

The 'Winter War' was being fought and it was on 6 January 1940. At dawn (about 8:30) the weather in Southern Finland was fairly favourable to enemy bombers. The cloud cover at 300 to 400 m was patchy, providing enough visibility for orientation, but also protecting bombers from surveillance and interceptors, and then haze up to 4000m.
Four Fokker D-XXI fighters with ski undercarrige of the 4th flight of the 24th Squadron were located in the Utti Air Base. The reason that the Flight was there was that during the first days of the year Finnish intelligence had intercepted radio messages from Soviet weather recce a/c flying over Jyväskylä and Kuopio. This indicated that the enemy had targeted these towns. Col.Lt Lorenz, the commander of the 2nd Wing, instructed Maj Magnusson to place his fighters accordingly.
At 9:30 the air surveillance reported enemy planes. The Fokkers were sent in pairs to intercept, but due to poor visibility the enemies could be encountered by chance only.
At the same time Lieutenant Pehr-Erik "Pelle" (his nickname is shortened from the original, as �Bob� from �Robert�) Sovelius was ferrying FR-92 to Utti from Lappeenranta where the fighter had been undergoing periodic major maintenance in one of the few warm hangars of the FAF. As usual the machine guns of the Fokker were loaded even though it was to be a ferrying mission.
Sovelius was near the base as at 10.10 hrs he heard in his headphones: - 'Enemy planes north of Hamina at 3000m!'.
He saw eight DB-3 bombers flying in an abreast formation right in his direction.
Sovelus� battle report of the engagement:lace of the aerial battle: �Northern edge of the Utti airfield.�
Enemy a/c: � DB�
Fate of the enemy a/c: �Dived burning to the ground between Utti and Kaipiainen, North of the railway line.�
Course of the aerial battle: �On a ferrying flight Lappeenranta-Utti I was informed by radio about the movement of enemy a/c at the Southern fringe of the Haukkasuo swamp, eight a/c, on a course to North from Kotka, flying altitude 3000 m. I intercepted the formation on �collision course�. Having climbed above the enemy I half-rolled my Fokker at the left wing a/c. I shot the gunner at 300m and then approached to a distance of 100m. At that moment the third a/c from the left fired at me, so I gave her a brief burst and the gunner fell silent.
Then I fired brief bursts (at the bomber) and the a/c caught fire. The left engine and wing were burning. The a/c crashed.�
Ammunition consumption: �500 pcs.�
Eventual evidence: �A/c found between Utti and Kaipiainen near the railway line.�
Other obervations: �The enemy a/c supported each other by flanking fire. My fighter took 8 hits.�
Signed by : Lt. P.-E. Sovelius Aircraft: FR-92
The other seven bombers continued northwards, and being almost as fast as the Fokker D.XXI they escaped among the clouds and haze. The enemy must have had intelligence information about the Utti base, the �home� of the Finnish fighter aviation, yet these bombers flew almost over it.
The enemy bombing target was Kuopio, population 22000, situated 400 km from the Southern coast at the railway line, which made the navigation easier.
Air raid alert was sounded in Kuopio at 10.52 hours. The town, totally lacking AA defence, was shrouded in frosty mist. The population hurried to take cover in hastily dug splinter shelters, cellars, holes in the ground or in the surrounding forest. Nine two-engined Soviet bombers flew over the town, failing to spot it. The enemy flew to the North, then turned and dropped 7 high explosive (HE) bombs and fired with machine guns. No actual damage was caused.
Immediately another enemy escadrille was spotted. It was recorded to comprise 6 twin-engined bombers. (This was the 6. DBAP intercepted by Sovelius.) They also at first flew over the town and turned back at Siilinjärvi about 15 km to N. Now unfortunately wind had risen and scattered the mist. The enemy approached at an altitude of 1000 m, dropped 54 HE bombs and fired with machine guns. 35 houses were damaged, but only one person was killed � by heart attack. ( Three ore lethal air raids followed later in January and February: 42 people were killed, hundreds wounded, 200 houses damaged or destroyed.) It was a terror raid, pure and simple.
The Fokker pilots at Utti kept their flying gear on and waited for the returning bombers. Lt. Sarvanto ordered his ground crew to keep his "FR-97", "white 2" warm (see profile in page bottom).
Message was received at 11:50 - '7 bombers flying south following the northern railway!'. The pilots of 4./LLv 24 climbed in their fighters, warmed up the engines and turned their radios on. Lieutenant Jorma Sarvanto listened to the radio traffic, soon he and his wingman (constituting one patrol) were ordered to take off. After take-off the wingman found that he had an engine problem (snow had clogged the engine air intake during take off) and he had to return. Lt. Sarvanto continued alone at the optimum rate of climb, direction N to meet the enemy.
The second pair (Lt. Sovelius and Sgt. Ikonen) took off after noticing that Lieutenant Sarvanto had to go alone, but Sarvanto had a good head start. Now the clouds had disappeared from the sky at Utti, and Sarvanto discovered the handsome formation of DB bomber bellies lit by dim sun shining through the haze. He counted seven silver coloured DB-3 bombers. To the left - a wedge of three, to the right - four abreast, all no farther than one plane length from each other. There was no fighter escort.
Sarvanto continued climbing, turning south by a right curve. For a moment he was within the range and sector of the bomber nose gunners, but remained unnoticed due to sun glare. When he was at the same altitude of 3000 m with the bombers, he was about 500m behind them. Sarvanto pursued the enemy at full power. He decided to attack the leftmost wing bomber, although the third from left was closest to him, to avoid getting into cross-fire from the rear gunners. At a distance of 300 m his plane vibrated unpleasantly - he had flown in a bomber gunner MG salvo.
The fighter pilot kept on approaching the bombers. At a distance of 20 (twenty) meters he aimed at the fuselage of his victim, the left wing bomber, and pressed the trigger briefly. The tracers hit the target. Next, he shifted his aim at the rear gunner of the tail bomber, and killed him. Lt. Sarvanto then carefully aimed at the right engine of the first bomber and fired a brief burst. The bomber's engine caught fire. He repeated the same maneouvre at the tail bomber with similar result. Two burning DB-3 bombers were leaving the formation.
Jorma Sarvanto cheered aloud and attacked the right wing of the formation while the bomber rear gunners blazed at his Fokker. He fired at each engine of the nearest bomber, making them smoke and forcing the bomber to leave the formation. Then he engaged the other bombers at a very close range. Each victim caught fire after two to three brief bursts of MG fire. Sarvanto glanced back - the latest smoking bomber was now in flames and diving to the ground.
Now Sarvanto decided to destroy every one of the DB-3 formation. Some burning bombers made a slow half-roll before diving down, another pulled up before diving down. All the time they were flying south, the sun shone red through the haze low in southern horizon unless dimmed by smoke from a burning enemy plane.
Bomber no.6 was much more resistant to his bullets. The Fokker wing guns were out of ammo by now, but finally the DB-3 caught fire, and Finnish pilot could engage the last bomber. He already had eliminated the rear gunner, so he could fly close to the target. He aimed at one engine and pressed the trigger. Not a single shot. Sarvanto pulled the loading lever and retried shooting, but again in vain. He had spent his ammunition. There was nothing to do but leave the bomber alone and return to the base.
Columns of black smoke hung in the air and burning bomber wrecks could be seen on the ground. Sarvanto checked his instruments, there was no damage to vital parts, but his radio was dead and the Fokker's wings resembled Swiss cheese When preparing for landing he found that the hydraulic pump for the landing flaps did not work, but he landed successfully despite that...
Luutnantti Sarvanto felt very satisified as he parked his Fokker, but he did not quite get out of the cockpit before his cheering ground crew grabbed him and threw him in the air. The flight lasted 25 minutes and the actual battle 5 minutes, during which he shot down 6 DB-3 bombers belonging to the 6th DBAP of the Soviet Air Force. Two Soviet airmen bailed out and were taken prisoners, but the sources do not mention their names. The mechanics counted 23 hits from the bomber rear gunners in FR-97, some of them near the cockpit, necessitating several weeks' repairs at the State Aircraft Factory.
The patrol that took off afterwards pursued the surviving bomber.
 
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Sir I would venture to say that we as a nation do not know how to honour anything! Many who should have been recognized were marginalized, and those who deserved to be side tracked made it to places that one could not imagine them in...as such we have faced debacles like the war in 1971.

lean and mean soldiers but fat and lazy generals - quote by an israeli general on the state of the arab armies in 1967.
 
Muradk,

This could be an interesting thread. We should first identify which skills in which pilot over the years were absolute baseline. Ex: The Red Baron HAD to be good with his machine gun AND being able to fly his plane.

What about modern pilots? What skills are an absolute for a Ace today? I'd be curious to know what you think.

Hope I teased your mind..:enjoy:


Modern pilots....it is no longer gun totting heroics like the hey days.
Today it is all about patience and team work.

During WW2, only human eyes were radars. Present day technology gives pilots time to come up with various strategies before engagements. Air war has become much more complex than before.
 
Modern pilots....it is no longer gun totting heroics like the hey days.
Today it is all about patience and team work.

During WW2, only human eyes were radars. Present day technology gives pilots time to come up with various strategies before engagements. Air war has become much more complex than before.

The basic requirement for a fighter pilot
The Killer Instinct......always, all the time. :sniper:
 
Why isnt Oswald Bolcke mentioned here? C'mon he was one of the first persons to devise tactics for air combat. He needs to be mentioned here.
 
Frenchman René Fonck, with 75 confirmed victories
View attachment 3663
British Empire fighter pilots were Mick Mannock with 50 confirmed kills
View attachment 3664
Canadian Billy Bishop credited with 72 victories
View attachment 3665
Oswald Boelcke, victor of 40 aerial engagements, was dead at age 25.
Boelcke is considered the father of the German fighter air force,as well as the "Father of Air Fighting Tactics"
View attachment 3666



a good link is this one
http://ingwer.blogbus.com/c2276140/

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/airwar.htm
 
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I am not an expert here but I love reading about legendary pilots.
Although the Germans lost the war due to their stupid strategic mistakes, but Germans produced some of the best airmen.
ManFred von Richthofen aka Red Baron is one of the most famous fighting aces of World War 1, recorded nearly 80 aerial victories and died at a young age of 25 only.
Erich Hartmann aka The Black Devil is the best fighter pilot if the standard is taken to be number of air kills. He has been claimed the best fighter pilot by many military experts and officials.
Gerhard Barkhorn is the 2nd most successfull fighter pilot after Erich Hartmann with victories reported in the region of 300.
Hans Joachim Marseille aka Star of Africa was arguably one of the best pilots of WW II with nearly 158 kills to his name. He died due to a technical failure in his aircraft. Erich Hartmann regarded him 'THE BEST'.
Adolf Galland as already mentioned here by shehbazi sahab was the youngest General of either side of ww II. He scored 104 kills.
Heinrich Bar one of the best airmen of Germany, scored nearly 200 kills.
Walter Nowotny born in Austria. He was the first person to reach the 250 kills milestone. He died following a crash after a reported engine failure.

n.b. One or Two figures of air kills taken from wikipedia, because I wasn't able to remember them. Thanks
 
apart from the above ww1 aces

1]Karl Allmenroder (1896-1917) achieved 30 victories as an air ace with the German Air Service during the First World War.

2]Julius Arigi (1895-1981) was Austria-Hungary's second highest scoring air ace of the First World War (and its most highly decorated), with his 32 victories second only to Godwin Brumowski.

3]Captain Albert Ball (1896-1917) was Britain's highest scoring profile fighter pilot during World War One.44 victories

4]Francesco Baracca (1888-1918) was Italy's leading fighter pilot during World War One. Operating exclusively on the Italian Front Baracca notched up an impressive tally of 34 enemy aircraft, becoming his country's most successful airman of the war.Having established himself as an accredited ace Baracca painted an image of a prancing horse upon his aircraft: it has been used since 1923 by Ferrari upon its racing cars.


5]Paul Bäumer (1896-1927) was Germany's ninth-highest scoring fighter pilot of the First World War, achieving some 43 air successes in 1917 and 1918.

6]Andrew Frederick Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor (1894-1921) was South Africa's highest-scoring fighter pilot during World War One, with 54 victories.

7]Oliver Freiherr von Beaulieu-Marconnay (1898-1918) scored 25 victories as a leading German air ace of the First World War.

8]Fritz Otto Bernert (1893-1918) scored 27 victories as an air ace with the German Air Service between 1916-17, including five in the space of thirty minutes in April 1917


9]Rudolf Berthold (1891-1920), with 44 air victories, was one of Germany's highest-rated fighter pilots during World War One.


10]William Avery (Billy) Bishop (1884-1956) was Canada's highest-scoring fighter pilot of World War One, with 72 confirmed victories.


11]Leon Jean Pierre Bourjade (1889-1924) was a leading French air ace of the First World War, achieving some 28 aerial victories by the war's close.

12]Maurice Jean Paul Boyau (1888-1918) was a leading French so-called 'balloon buster' of the First World War.33kills

13]Godwin Brumowski (1889-1936) was Austria-Hungary's top-scoring fighter pilot of World War One.35kills

14]Lieutenant Franz Buchner (1898-1920) was a high-scoring German air ace of the First World War, achieving 40 'kills' during 1917 and 1918.

15]Albert Desbrisay Carter (1892-1919) was a leading Canadian air ace of the First World War with 29 'kills' to his credit between 1917-18.

16]William Gordon Claxton (1899-1967), a Canadian air ace, scored a remarkable 37 air victories in just 79 days during the war's final year.

17]Arthur Henry Cobby (1894-1955) served with the Australian Flying Corps (AFC) during the First World War, and achieved 29 victories as a fighter pilot.

18]Raymond Collishaw (1893-1975) was Canada's second-highest scoring fighter pilot during World War One, achieving 60 aircraft victories by the war's close, plus a further eight observation balloons.

19]Willy Coppens (1892-1986) was Belgium's highest-scoring fighter pilot during the First World War, scoring 37 victories by the war's close.

20]Roderic Dallas (1891-1918) was Australia's second-highest scoring air ace during World War One, with 32 victories to his credit.

21]Benno Fiala von Fernbrugg (1890-1964) was one of the Austro-Hungarian empire's highest-scoring air aces of the First World War with 28 victories to his credit.

22]Philip Fletcher Fullard (1897-1984) scored 40 victories (plus a further six probables) as a leading British air ace of the First World War.
 
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1]Captain Frederick Warrington Gillet (1895-1969) was America's second-highest scoring air ace of World War One, with his total of 26 victories bested only by Eddie Rickenbacker's 23.

2]Gabriel Fernand Charles Guerin (1892-1918) achieved 23 victories as a French air ace during the First World War.

3]Georges Marie Ludovic Jules Guynemer (1894-1917) was one of France's highest scoring fighter pilots during World War One, achieving 54 victories prior to his death on 11 September 1917.

4]Tom Falcon Hazell (1892-1946) scored 43 victories with the British Royal Flying Corps as an Irish airman between March 1917 and October 1918.

5]Lieutenant Josef Karl Peter Jacobs (1894-1978) was one of Germany's leading air aces of the First World War, with 48 enemy aircraft and observation balloon 'kills' to his credit.

6]Captain Elwyn Roy "Bo" King (1894-1941) achieved 26 aerial victories as an Australian fighter pilot during World War One.

7]Hans Kirschstein (1896-1918) scored some 27 victories as a German air ace during the First World War.

8]Frank Linke-Crawford (1893-1918) was a leading Austro-Hungarian fighter pilot during the First World War, amassing a total of 27 air victories prior to his death in action in July 1918.

9]Robert Alexander Little (1895-1918) was Australia's highest-scoring fighter pilot during World War One, with 47 confirmed victories.

10]Erich Lowenhardt (1897-1918) was one of the German Air Service’s highest-scoring fighter pilots of the First World War, with 54 victories prior to his death from an aerial collision in August 1918.

11] Georges Felix Madon (1892-1924) remains surprisingly little-known for someone who clearly established himself as a leading French ace of the First World War, with a probable tall of over 100 'kills', of which some 41 were officially confirmed.

12]Major Edward 'Mickey' Mannock (1887-1918) was Britain's highest scoring fighter pilot of World War One.73kills

13]Frederick Robert Gordon McCall (1896-1949) scored 35 confirmed victories as a Canadian air ace during 1918.

14James Thomas Byford McCudden (1895-1918) was a long-serving, high-scoring British fighter pilot during World War One.54kills

15]George Edward Henry "McIrish" McElroy (1893-1918) was one of Britain's top-scoring air aces (and Ireland's highest) of World War One, with 47 victories.

16]Lieutenant Colonel Andrew McKeever was one of Canada's highest-scoring air aces during the First World War, amassing some 31 victories


17]Carl Menckhoff (1883-1948) was a noted German fighter pilot during the First World War, achieving a total of 39 victories during 1917 and 1918.

18]Charles Nungesser (1883-1927) was one of France's most successful fighter pilots of World War One.45kills

19]Armand Pinsard (1887-1953) was France's eighth highest-scoring air ace of the First World War, scoring 27 confirmed victories in total.

20]Francis Granger Quigley (1894-1918) scored 33 confirmed victories as a Canadian air ace during the First World War.

21]Arthur Percival Foley Rhys Davids DSO, MC With Bar (1897-1918) was a pilot on the Western Front during 1917.25kills

22]Lothar Siegfried Freiherr von Richthofen (1894-1922) scored 40 victories as a high-scoring German air ace during the First World War.

23]Eddie Rickenbacker (1890-1973) was America's top-scoring fighter pilot of World War One, with 26 victories

24]Lieutenant Fritz Rumey (1891-1918) was one of Germany's leading fighter pilots of the First World War, with 45 victories to his name.

25]Silvio Scaroni (1893-1977) was Italy's second-highest scoring air ace of the First World War, with his 26 confirmed victories bested only by Francesco Baracca's 34.

26]Ernst Udet (1896-1941) was a German fighter ace who achieved 62 victories during World War One.

27]Joseph Veltjens (1894-1943) scored 35 victories as a leading German air ace of the First World War.

28Werner Voss (1897-1917) was one of Manfred von Richthofen's closest rivals as an air ace during the 1916-17 period, with 48 victories to his credit.
 
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