Who has the strongest Land Forces in ME?

[DESERT FIGHTER]

ToT issue is requested from each contenderers who attends tenders. It has nothing to do with being NATO member but Turkish Undersecretariat's tender regulations. The winner mostly became the country or institute who guarantee to give satisfactory ToT (If requested) under an avarage price compared with others. See Chinese example for Long range air defence system. China is a NATO member ? NATO solidarity stories are just a gossip spreaded by mostly non-NATO countries' members in forums. It is money ($) and political power of countries which enables suppliers to share their ToT. Otherwise, Noone gives a flying sh@t to others in NATO.
With your own logic, Each NATO states must have been a weapon exporter since NATO sates share everything they has with others...

Let me quote a learned member from a "NATO" country @Penguin


P.S: How do you think polish bought F-16s on such low rates?

Sure China would give anybody weapons with ToT... but would US give its core tech? not to india they didnt... they flatly refused to produce full ToT on several parts... includin the AESA etc...

 

[cabatli_53]

Let me quote a learned member from a "NATO" country @Penguin


P.S: How do you think polish bought F-16s on such low rates?

Sure China would give anybody weapons with ToT... but would US give its core tech? not to india they didnt... they flatly refused to produce full ToT on several parts... includin the AESA etc...

Dude, I am not talking about What others are receiving. S. Korea may receive serious ToT cause of Chinese/N. Korean threat or some other countries may receive many other benefits cause of being NATO in order to strengten the state's borders and they may collect fruits of being NATO but Turkey didn't receive anything regarding ToT cause of being NATO excluding some second hand frigates, ballistic missile in Cuba crisses and dozens of second hand M-48 and M60 tanks.

Think Many USA institutes couldn't even join into Turkish tenders cause of refusing a simple ToT. Our NATO friends didn't even give simple artillery rocket tech to us, so Turkey received Chinese tech to develop our artillery rocket/missile family. When they exported something to us, They restrict the total numbers in accordance with their benefits. Many big tenders like 145 AH-1Z and 1000 Leopard2A6 were cancelled cause of not accepting a simple integration of Turkish systems or requesting some assembly rights so Don't bring such stupid "NATO fruit" things to thread When something is told about Turkish industry. Turkey has worked hard and poured money to improve capabilities to that level. It is money, hard working engineers, strategies talks, not fruit of NATO.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Dude, I am not talking about What others are receiving. S. Korea may receive serious ToT cause of Chinese threat or some other countries may receive many other benefits cause of being NATO in order to strengten the state's borders and they may collect fruits of being NATO but Turkey didn't receive anything ToT cause of being NATO excluding some second hand frigates, ballistic missile in Cuba crisses and dozens of second hand M-48 and M60 tanks.

Think Many USA institutes couldn't even join into Turkish tenders cause of refusing a simple ToT. Our NATO friends couldn't even give simple artillery rocket tech to us to Turkey received Chinese tech to develop our artillery rocket/missile family. When they exported something to us, They restrict the total numbers in accordance with their benefits. Many big tenders like 145 AH-1Z and 1000 Leopard2A6 were cancelled cause of not accepting a simple integration of Turkish systems or requesting some assembly rights so Don't bring such stupid "NATO fruid" things to thread When something told about Turkish industry. Turkey has worked hard and poured money to improve capabilities to that level. It is money, hard working engineers, strategies and politic talks, not fruid of NATO.

Okay bro you got nothing for being a NATO members..

 

[Hell NO]

500s comment isn't about the quality of commanders (at least I don't think it is) the Egyptian Armed Forces has. That was never much of a problem. A problem that still persists is the decentralisation of power among junior ranks, whether that be among Officers or NCOs.

In Britain and elsewhere we often joke that a British or US Sgt. has more responsibilities and powers than an Arab Major or Captain. Although this is an over exaggeration and oversimplification it still rings true. The Armed Forces non commissioned ranks remain inexcusably weak when they should be the core of the Army.

As a result of this we simply have too many officers for jobs that should be done by Staff Sgt.s, Sgt. Majors, and Warrant Officers ranks that don't even exist (in the same structure) in our forces. What this means is that the decision making process is convoluted and long (certainly longer than that in Britain and perhaps Israel).

From my personal experience it's the NCOs that run formations not the Officers, a platoon commander is never truly in charge the Sgt. is. In a Company ops room the Capitan and Major get the decision making done but it is the Staff Sgt.s and Sgt. Majors that provide the equipment, ammunition, and rations that allow a platoon or Coy to conduct operations.

This is not to say we haven't changed since 73 we have immensely as have the Israelis. They are nowhere near a perfect army nor are they the switched on dealers of death they wish to portray.

In terms of land forces Egypt definitely comes out on top in the Middle East. The sheer size of the Army in terms of active and reserve personnel blows everyone else out of the water. Egypt has the largest modern MBT fleet in the ME and the entire Army is either armoured or mechanised which is odd (light role infantry is nowhere to be found). More important than that is Army's artillery power, which is its greatest asset. The fire power Army's artillery can bring is astonishing and devastating whether carrying out precision strikes or area bombardment, its counter battery capabilities are also quite scary. As for Air Defence then we don't even need to say anything about that.

What lets us down is the Armed Forces other branches. I have advocated for quite some time now cutting the Army in favour of the Air Force and Navy. It is incredibly bloated and absolutely swallows funding. The introduction of an Army and Navy air corps and the complete professionalism of the force is also on my list but hey ho who's going to listen to me!

I think the light infatry role is given to the sa'ka
About the officers. You know the egyptain mentalty ever one wants to become an officer and few want to become an stg so why not make them officers while doing the stg role.

 

[The Last of us]

Iran has while to reach Turkish level in the quality of ground force hardware such as armoured machines and tanks. There is no point even debating this.
Once Iran gets more funding in the ground then we can consider Iran. But as things stand there is no doubt Turkey ranks first in terms quality of armoured vehicles and tanks in the middle east.
The Isrealis are professional but small and Egypt...Egypt is too reliant on the outside for its military hardware for us to even consider it properly here.

That's not to say Iranian ground forces are bad. What Iran lacks in conventional modern machines it makes up in proficiency. The IRGC ground forces are a very capable force. The regular Iranian ground forced simply gets too little funding.

My vote goes to Turkey.

-

- In terms of Artillery rocket/missiles, Israel and Turkey.
Those two reveal similar solutions. Israeli Lynx, Extra and Lora... Turkish Sakarya (46km), S+ (50km), Kasirga (100km), Kasirga+(120+km), Ylrm Blk-1(300km), Yldrm Blk-2 (450km). There are no other countries that is able to develop and produce own guided artillery missile solutions in ME different than those two.

Hey bro, I disagree with you here.

Iran has very advanced artillery and missiles. Even Isreal does not have anything which is anywhere close to the likes of Khalije fars missile and Hormoz missile. Those missile have ranges of 300km and are in services of IRGC.

 

[Frogman]

I think the light infatry role is given to the sa'ka
About the officers. You know the egyptain mentalty ever one wants to become an officer and few want to become an stg so why not make them officers while doing the stg role.

Special forces and airborne troops are an exception due to the nature of their structure and operation thus they can't be expected to have the same structure the regular infantry has.

In terms of platoon level you would have a two tiered level of command. The tactical level and the administration level.

Tactical level:- Pl commander (Lieutenant) - 1 section commander (Corporal) - 2 section commander (Corporal) - 3 section commander (Corporal)

These guys are primarily interested in receiving orders from the Platoon commander (who got his from the company commander who got his from the battle group commander and so on) and then conveying it to their section.

While in contact the section commanders would constantly be on or in contact with the Pl commander as he will decide what to do with their sections.

Administration:- Pl Sgt. (Sgt.) - 1 section second in command (Lance Corporal) - 2 Sec 2IC (LC) - 3 Sec 2IC

These guys are primarily interested in getting the lads ready for their mission. The Pl Sgt. will receive the supplies for the whole platoon and he is to then call in the section 2ICs who will then distribute ammunition, rations, and any other equipment or even water to their sections.

On the battlefield the Platoon Sgt is occupied with ensuring that sections are always a tactical bound behind the Platoon Commander ensuring an assaulting section is always in the commanders "back pocket". He is also in charge of the reserve section, the reserve section is usually his work party, they will ensure ammunition is loaded and passed to the suppressing and assaulting sections if required so they don't become combat ineffective. Sgt is also in charge of moving casualties among other things.

In essence you almost have two completely separate chains of command. Simply putting an officer who spent his years at a Military Academy learning to be a Pl commander wont work. The Pl Sgt is usually the most experienced guy in a platoon and will shepard a new green Pl commander who just came out of the academy (bearing in mind a lot of the guys in the platoon may have already had several tours under their belt and are experienced).

What you don't want is a lot of bureaucracy or an inter-crossing in these almost separate chains. It will affect the tactical side of things negatively as well as the administration. It will also curb initiative and anger the NCO corp. What you want is an environment where those in charge can crack on with tactical side while you as an NCO makes sure the tactical side can be done and you don't want an officer to be constantly hovering over you while doing it. The Sgt usually has a much better relationship with the lads as a Pl commander needs to distance himself a lot more.

 

[Penguin]

Actually, Being a NATO member doesn't bring anything regarding technology. India is not a NATO member but NATO weapon suppliers are competing each others for sharing technology with them to get the winner. It is about political power of importer countries along with the size of tender ($). Turkey has been woring on defence sector since 1974 and applied clever strategies to improve capabilities since 15 years and It is time to collect fruits of hard working and systematic efforts in following 10-15 years.

Your armor production a started with licence production of US designed AIFV (aka Dutch YPR-765) redubbed ACV-15. Remember FNSS = FMC Corporation + Nurol. FMC Corp = FORD. For years, the Turkish navy used ex-US and ex-German ships, essentially until there came eventually ToT deals with Germany for FACs and MEKO200 and Type 209s, only then ships like Ada class. For years Turkey used first ex-US, then ex-German MBTs. Eventually, own development. There would not be such close mil-indu cooperation with mainly US and German companies if Turkey were NOT a NATO member.

Step stones being:

• used equipment maintainance
• used equipment refurbing
• used equipment modernization
• licenced production
• co-development
• indigenous development

eg List of submarines of the Turkish Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

1. Turkey
2. Israel
3. Iran
4. Egypt

 

[cabatli_53]

Your armor production a started with licence production of US designed AIFV (aka Dutch YPR-765) redubbed ACV-15. Remember FNSS = FMC Corporation + Nurol. FMC Corp = FORD. For years, the Turkish navy used ex-US and ex-German ships, essentially until there came eventually ToT deals with Germany for FACs and MEKO200 and Type 209s, only then ships like Ada class. For years Turkey used first ex-US, then ex-German MBTs. Eventually, own development. There would not be such close mil-indu cooperation with mainly US and German companies if Turkey were NOT a NATO member.

Step stones being:

• used equipment maintainance
• used equipment refurbing
• used equipment modernization
• licenced production
• co-development
• indigenous development

eg List of submarines of the Turkish Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I said, NATO transfer lots of second hand warships and MBT to Turkey on quite lower prices. NATO thought to establish a huge armoured block to stop a likely invasion of Soviets so We received thousands of M-48 and hundreds of M60 tanks. USA and Turkish institutes established lots of JV but what they have done is to just produce/assembly some simple parts of USA products. They never shared anything serious to improve our technological capabilities in order to pass a new level for domestic production so some of JV's are broken up, Some of them have already been proceeding. It is the reason Turkey's offset figures are seen quite bigger to USA.

Licence production deals have nothing to do with being NATO. S. Africa is not inside of NATO but They are also making similar deals with Germany on Naval sector. Nothing special for NATO member Turkey. What I mean from the beggining is that Turkey is not collecting the fruits of being NATO. There are many other underlying reasons of rising levels of defence industry on domestic products.

Iran has while to reach Turkish level in the quality of ground force hardware such as armoured machines and tanks. There is no point even debating this.
Once Iran gets more funding in the ground then we can consider Iran. But as things stand there is no doubt Turkey ranks first in terms quality of armoured vehicles and tanks in the middle east.
The Isrealis are professional but small and Egypt...Egypt is too reliant on the outside for its military hardware for us to even consider it properly here.

That's not to say Iranian ground forces are bad. What Iran lacks in conventional modern machines it makes up in proficiency. The IRGC ground forces are a very capable force. The regular Iranian ground forced simply gets too little funding.

My vote goes to Turkey.



Hey bro, I disagree with you here.

Iran has very advanced artillery and missiles. Even Isreal does not have anything which is anywhere close to the likes of Khalije fars missile and Hormoz missile. Those missile have ranges of 300km and are in services of IRGC.

Bro, The list should be renewed then. The most strategic artillery forces/industry missile capabilities in ME:
Iran
Israel
Turkey

Hormuz project is really strategic and ambitious one. In video, It seems highly precision.

 

[Penguin]

As I said, NATO transfer lots of second hand warships and MBT to Turkey on quite lower prices. NATO thought to establish a huge armoured block to stop a likely invasion of Soviets so We received thousands of M-48 and hundreds of M60 tanks. USA and Turkish institutes established lots of JV but what they have done is to just produce/assembly some simple parts of USA products. They never shared anything serious to improve our technological capabilities in order to pass a new level for domestic production so some of JV's are broken up, Some of them have already been proceeding. It is the reason Turkey's offset figures are seen quite bigger to USA.

M48 > M48A5T1, M48A5T2 upgrades
M60 > M60T (Israëli) Sabra upgrade
ex German Leo2A4 > Next Generation (NG) upgrade package by Aselsan as a private venture
Leo1 A1s and A3s (all ex-German) > upgraded to 1T 'Volkan'
Leopard 2 Next Generation Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com
Both feature Aselsan's VOLKAN Fire Control System

Licence production deals have nothing to do with being NATO. S. Africa is not inside of NATO but They are also making similar deals with Germany on Naval sector. Nothing special for NATO member Turkey. What I mean from the beggining is that Turkey is not collecting the fruits of being NATO. There are many other underlying reasons of rising levels of defence industry on domestic products.

Well, actually they do. For as indicated, previous relations help build trust and experience. The fact that South Africa also got Meko's and Type 209s does not detract from that: they only got those after SA moved back into the civilized worldcommunity by abolishing apartheid. And during the Cold War, SA was firmly in the Western camp, just like Turkey.

Turkey has very longstanding military-industrial relations with Germany.

 

[cabatli_53]

M48 > M48A5T1, M48A5T2 upgrades
M60 > M60T (Israëli) Sabra upgrade
ex German Leo2A4 > Next Generation (NG) upgrade package by Aselsan as a private venture
Leo1 A1s and A3s (all ex-German) > upgraded to 1T 'Volkan'
Leopard 2 Next Generation Main Battle Tank | Military-Today.com
Both feature Aselsan's VOLKAN Fire Control System


Well, actually they do. For as indicated, previous relations help build trust and experience. The fact that South Africa also got Meko's and Type 209s does not detract from that: they only got those after SA moved back into the civilized worldcommunity by abolishing apartheid. And during the Cold War, SA was firmly in the Western camp, just like Turkey.

Turkey has very longstanding military-industrial relations with Germany.

Yep, As It is seen It is about relations of countries along with the money that drive them to cooperate instead of being inside of NATO or not. Noone gives a death adder in others pocket cause of being NATO If they don't see any benefits that I told above. Politics play critical role in such ToT and procurements. If Being NATO member opened all doors to countries requesting technology from others, Each country inside of NATO would have self sufficient enough to fullfill their own requirements but There is not such a thing If We are talking about TECHNOLOGY.

Our longstanding partner Germany refused delivering 1000 Leopard 2A6EX Despite all governmental talks. The ex-German Leopard 2A4 tanks came to Turkey with lots of restrictions. Our biggest ally USA refused some simple licence production for 145 AH-1Z, bigger number of ATACMS missiles, larger number of M270 MLRS. Turkish F-16's can't be operated in Cyprus even in today. If the NATO was what you thought in your minds, Turkey would have never had such an active defence industry today. The motivation and ambitious of Turkish people comes from such bad experiences we have met with our NATO allies at almost all tenders so Domestic equivalents of the products which was refused to sell in past, are being talked as competitive of them today.

Today, Turkey developed an ambitious defence industry thanks to other sources and started revealing many products and Finally, Our friends realized that They started loosing a big market. To receive some cakes, They changed strategy to add Turkey into their projects. It is offered partnership of Eurofighter, British Frigate project, EuroSAM partnership, Utility helicopter partnership...etc but This time, It is Turkey refused all those offers with a great pleasure...

In last years, Turkey made two great technology transfer deal with our Western friends which is going to put Turkey into so special positions. 109+200 T-70 (%65-70 national workshare + technology transfer) and 6 U-214TN(%80+ national input + technology transfer). Those deals and great technology transfer issues are not about being NATO but realization of Turks' anger and determination for technology. They finally realized that If they don't share their technology with Turks, They will loose a big and serious market soTurkey received the extreme benefits that is not seen similar examples before. It is the reason T-70 deal meetings took years to persuade Skorsky officials to be clever for delivering all sensitive technologies to Turkey. After deal, Skorsky announced that It is the first time They have given such a compromise to a country for their technology.

With Skorsky/TAI deal;

-TAI as prime contactor, became second source of the world for S-70 helicopter service and meintenance chain.
-Training/Education services are being done by TAI.
-Aselsan became global domestic avionic integrator institute for T-70 helicopters to be exported by Turkey.
-TAI received licence to export helicopters up to 600 T-70 worldwide.
-The GE engine to be produced by TEI will be called with TEI name and exported to worldwide from Turkey.

What a deal !!!

 

[Gazi]

Loool you really believe Turkey has a better defence industry than israel??lool. Even most turks themselves dont believe that. but as my french friend @Gabriel92 said guess its because most of you dont like Israel.

To be fair israel is more advanced than all of the middle eastern countries. Followed by i would say Turkey/Iran.
Israel isnt in the same league with the others, despite being smaller. Size doesnt really matter if you read hjsyory. If it did my country(a small isolated european island) would have never ruled the worl amd israel wouldnt be a hegemon in the middle east and acting the way it wants.loool

Read again....

Industry wise Israel is indeed Ahead but Turkey also have decent Industry as well and the Gap of Turkey in Industry is fulfilled by Numbers so its Quite even on their Indigenous Capacity.

 

[Malik Alashter]

Clearly Iraq. It's all about training, equipment, and combat experience. Iraq has been receiving training from the best military in the world. All of their training is done according to NATO standards and they are sending their officers to some of the best military academies in the world. They have tons of conventional experience from the 90's and early 2000's, they also have a lot of experience in counter terrorism. Its not all about size, read history and you will see this.

When said the first comment that Iraq has the strongest I didn't mean we are any where close to countries such as Iran, Israel and Turkey manufacturing and producing weapons neather we possess a matched missile systems we still in building all that thanks to America.

I actually meant the training and experience especially within the PM Forces these men have better experience than Israel and Turkey for sure.

I'm confident that in a battle without the air support these PMF brigades will beat both Turkey and Israel again a battle that has no air support.

In terms of military industry yes we lagging behind these nations for sure but as long as we have the money we can be there one day.

Don't forget that Iraq in the 80s were producing and manufacturing some.

Since the Fatwa of Imam Sistani and the emerge of the PMF Iraqis beating ISIS every day the only weak force so far is the army and that/s due to the penetration of the Baathis and ISIS supporters the body of the Army we should never forget that the MoD today is a baathi ((thanks)) to the Government quotas.

 

[cabatli_53]

ME surface to air missile systems ranking:

1-Israel

*Israel has a vast of experience and World class matured missile systems which was developed to actively used on war environments immediately. In accordance with feedbacks, They are upgrading the solutions. The level Israel reached on surface to air missile technologies are apploudable since They are offering some of them to protect USA skies. India ordered Barak-8 missiles for their naval assets.

-Derby
-Iron Dome
-Davit'S Sling
-Barak-1/8
-Arrow-3

2-Iran

* Iran is developing own solutions with working on available platforms. They have reached serious knowledge and started revealing specific products which is reaching longer ranges today. Their seeker technologies along with propulsion systems enables them to open the way of developing longer range surface to air missiles.

-Sayyad 3
-Raad
-Misagh
-Mersad

3-Turkey

*Turkey is new at those sector and working seriously hard/ pouring money and time to develop own family of surface to air missiles called Hisar. One of the most difficult mission Turkish engineers should overcame at the beggining was the heating problem of IIR seeker head during very high speeds. Engineers developed some solutions and overcame the problems. Second problem was to develop a dual pulse motor. It is also tested succesfully in recent days.

Hisar-MANPAD (tender process)
Hisar-A Low altitude (Under development/trials)
Hisar-O Medium altitude (Under development/trials)
Hisar-U Long altitude (Tender process)

Hisar-A

Hisar-O

 

[Osmanovic]

ME surface to air missile systems ranking:

1-Israel

*Israel has a vast of experience and World class matured missile systems which was developed to actively used on war environments immediately. In accordance with feedbacks, They are upgrading the solutions. The level Israel reached on surface to air missile technologies are apploudable since They are offering some of them to protect USA skies. India ordered Barak-8 missiles for their naval assets.

-Derby
-Iron Dome
-Davit'S Sling
-Barak-1/8
-Arrow-3

2-Iran

* Iran is developing own solutions with working on available platforms. They have reached serious knowledge and started revealing specific products which is reaching longer ranges today. Their seeker technologies along with propulsion systems enables them to open the way of developing longer range surface to air missiles.

-Sayyad 3
-Raad
-Misagh
-Mersad

3-Turkey

*Turkey is new at those sector and working seriously hard/ pouring money and time to develop own family of surface to air missiles called Hisar. One of the most difficult mission Turkish engineers should overcame at the beggining was the heating problem of IIR seeker head during very high speeds. Engineers developed some solutions and overcame the problems. Second problem was to develop a dual pulse motor. It is also tested succesfully in recent days.

Hisar-MANPAD (tender process)
Hisar-A Low altitude (Under development/trials)
Hisar-O Medium altitude (Under development/trials)
Hisar-U Long altitude (Tender process)

Hisar-A

Hisar-O

Who is number 4 for indigenous SAM systems in middle east?

Turkey as of now is really lacking in the SAM department, looks like in the next 5 years some of the issues will be resolved but until a long range SAM system is acquired Turkey is vulnerable. Again Turkey is going about this with a long term mindset, the Turks could have bought all air defence systems off the shelf but instead decided to go indigenous. No one will attack Turkey anytime soon so there is not a big risk, Turkey's neighbors are either in chaos or don't have serious militaries.