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Whither Now? The Attack Helicopter Problem for PA

how about the T-129 with Chinese or Russian engines? that would be interesting...

Even 100 CAS planes similar to the British SABA design would completely end the possibility of "Cold Start" or any armoured thrust AND neutralize India's attack helicopters.

AND earn foreign exchange with a cheap export item at a time when CAS is vital for every conflict zone.
I believe a non-ITAR version of the CTS-800 turboshaft engine is under development at Rolls-Royce (to cater for the commercial helicopter market). This, along with Turkey's indigenous turboshaft engine, could be alternatives to the current CTS-800 aboard the T129.

That said, building on the SABA idea, something akin to that has been developed by South Africa's Paramount Group - i.e. the AHRLAC/Mwari. It - like the SABA - has turboprop engine pushing the airframe, providing a max cruise speed of 500 km/h. It reportedly has a payload of 800 kg.

So developing a SABA-like aircraft is doable, and it has been done (lending a possible off-the-shelf platform to build upon) with the Mwari/AHRLAC. Alternatively, the Stavatti Machete is another interesting (also push-turboprop) CAS aircraft concept, though on paper at the moment. If only we had someone in the Pakistani state, or even the private sector, with enough in them to buy-off the Stavatti team and get it developed and built in Pakistan.

http://www.stavatti.com/aircraft/sm-27/

C_qj6yMUQAAyjHH.jpg
 
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I believe a non-ITAR version of the CTS-800 turboshaft engine is under development at Rolls-Royce (to cater for the commercial helicopter market). This, along with Turkey's indigenous turboshaft engine, could be alternatives to the current CTS-800 aboard the T129.

That said, building on the SABA idea, something akin to that has been developed by South Africa's Paramount Group - i.e. the AHRLAC/Mwari. It - like the SABA - has turboprop engine pushing the airframe, providing a max cruise speed of 500 km/h. It reportedly has a payload of 800 kg.

So developing a SABA-like aircraft is doable, and it has been done (lending a possible off-the-shelf platform to build upon) with the Mwari/AHRLAC. Alternatively, the Stavatti Machete is another interesting (also push-turboprop) CAS aircraft concept, though on paper at the moment. If only we had someone in the Pakistani state, or even the private sector, with enough in them to buy-off the Stavatti team and get it developed and built in Pakistan.

http://www.stavatti.com/aircraft/sm-27/

C_qj6yMUQAAyjHH.jpg

Very interesting, thanks for this post. Western engine firms have a long history of making big promises to Turkey and then not delivering leaving Turkey (and many similar Muslim countries) with a failed project. Pakistan was lucky to have China to develop the JF-17 with.

Even if a Turkish engine is on the works, it will take considerable time. Time to develop a new turboshaft engine is very long, as it testing and maturing the technology. Pakistan could easily get a 10 year delay in the mix.

Not discounting what you said, perhaps it can work out as you are suggesting, which would be great.

On the other hand, if it doesn't, then maybe a Chinese or Russian option?

Honestly, I have spent at least 7 years back and forth working on a design concept of a CAS plane like the SABA or the two you just shared. I know from all the research I have done that a CAS aeroplane is way cheaper, easier to operate and has fundamentally superior characteristics than a helicopter can ever have.

The only reason I am not arguing this point very strongly is that we in the East don't tend to think for ourselves, we like to follow the dominant (Western) strategies. So we want to have attack helicopters "Just like US Army and US Marines) not realizing that this has been largely a bureaucratic reason - the US Army and USAF was demarcated on the basis of not having CAS aeroplanes. It has nothing to do with any weaknesses on the part of a CAS aeroplane platform.

There are some areas where a helicopter is better, but these are all marginal issues, and not important for the Pakistani requirement.

The AHRLAC is a nice little plane, would be great for Bangladesh. But would not be very good for the Pakistani requirement, which needs decent armor (thus the Z-19 was rejected). The basic design though is great.

Designing small, subsonic aircraft is very different from designing fighter aircraft. Its a lot easier and costs are unbelievably low, and time taken ican be as little as 1-2 years. It would not need much foreign participation, I believe such an aircraft can be built by local expertise already present in Pakistan.

There are small engineering teams in the US that have built planes like this on their own funds at record time.

Armor for CAS is one potential area where you may need foreign expertise, which one can easily get from Turkey or China. Basically a titanium tub and hardening of the overall airframe and key parts.

The main reasons a fighter takes so much longer and is so complex is because:

1. They have complex FBW that takes a long time to perfect. COIN / CAS aircraft don't need this
2. Radar / avionics integration. Again not an issue for CAS
3. Advanced structural engineering for high speed and high Gs, this needs extensive building and testing. Again not an issue for a CAS aircraft.

One basically needs WWII era engineering with a modern turboprop (say from Ukraine). Some smart weapons and avionices, and that's it. One could add Kevlar armor and use some fancy composites, but its not really a big deal if one doesn't.

As you rightly pointed out, getting to 500 km/h is no big deal. The secret of building a good CAS plane, according to a very senior LM engineer, is to get range (fuel fraction) something that trainers are never built with. And good ordnance capability. To deal with an Indian armored thrust one would need a good and heavy ordnance load, at standoff range.

Just a few thoughts, looks like I rambled on quite a bit.
 
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It is best to increase numbers of aircraft already in inventory or modify existing ones rather than spend money on a new platform.

If an aircraft is required then Convert F-7 into CAS role which its already doing to some extent. Did you know that MFi-17 and K-8 can also carry out combat missions? Otherwise, UCAV Burraq armed with Barq is an available option.

I think UCAV's are a better option than armed trainer aircraft (Super Mushshak, etc) because

* they are cheaper to produce & operate. No pilot training required
* similar payload, i.e., 2x Burq (AR-1) anti-tank missiles (in case of Burraq)
* Super Mushshak ceiling is low, which increases risk of getting hit by short range AD systems like Strela-10. UCAV loss is more bearable than losing pilot+aircraft. Less risk to operators in any engagement

In 1988 Angolan Strela-10 shot down South African Mirage F-1. In 1991, during the Operation Desert Storm, two American A-10 Thunderbolt II ground-attack aircraft were lost one after another to Iraqi Strela-10 fire. In 2014 during ongoing military conflict in Ukraine, Ukrainian An-30 reconnaissance aircraft was lost to Strela-10 fire.

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/strela_10.htm


If 6 Burraq flights (i.e., 30 UCAV) are attached to every brigade deployed for countering CSD assault, it would prove an effective counter, IMO.

There was also talk of acquiring an Multiple launcher System type weapon system which can individually fire missiles at single targets, i forgot the name and link.

You mean YJ2080C2 armoured vehicle and Sabre-ER anti-tank/anti-aircraft missile?
 
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Chop the Chopper
The Army's Apache attack-helicopter had a bad war.
By Fred Kaplan




Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is gearing up for his next war—not with the Syrians or the North Koreans but with the hidebound generals of the U.S. Army. These are the generals who criticized Rumsfeld's battle plan while Gulf War II was still raging and who beat back his efforts, over the past few years, to "transform" the Army into a lighter, lither fighting force. With Rumsfeld's star rising and the generals' tarnished, he can be expected to mount a new offensive on their bureaucratic turf at the first opportunity.

He might want to start by junking the Army's attack helicopter. The current version, the AH-64D Apache Longbow, is in many ways a vast improvement over earlier models, but it is still too dangerous to the pilots who fly it and not dangerous enough to the enemy it's designed to attack.

FRED KAPLAN
Fred Kaplan is the author of Dark Territory: The Secret History of Cyber War.

The U.S. Army's only disastrous operation in Gulf War II (at least the only one we know about) took place on March 24, when 33 Apache helicopters were ordered to move out ahead of the 3rd Infantry Division and to attack an Iraqi Republican Guard regiment in the suburbs of Karbala. Meeting heavy fire from small arms and shoulder-mounted rocket-propelled grenades, the Apaches flew back to base, 30 of them shot up, several disablingly so. One helicopter was shot down in the encounter, and its two crewmen were taken prisoner.

After that incident, Apaches were used more cautiously—on reconnaissance missions or for firing at small groups of armored vehicles. Rarely if ever did they penetrate far beyond the front line of battle, out in front of U.S. ground troops or without the escort of fixed-wing aircraft flying far overhead.

Shortly afterward, when a speech by Saddam Hussein was broadcast over Iraqi television, some armchair commentators observed that the speech was probably live, or at least very recent, because he referred to the downing of an Apache. In fact, that proved nothing. If one thing could have been predicted before the war started, it was that an Apache would be shot down.

Last year, during the Afghanistan war, seven Apaches were flown in to attack Taliban fighters as part of Operation Anaconda. They all got shot up, again by RPGs and machine-gun fire. None crashed, but five were so damaged they were declared "non-mission-capable"—in other words, unable to go back into combat without extensive repair—after the first day.

In the 1999 air war over Kosovo, 24 Apache helicopters were transported to the allied base in Albania. Their arrival was anticipated by many officers and analysts as a turning point in the war. Yet, within days, two choppers crashed during training exercises. Commanders decided not to send any of them into battle; the risk of losing them to Serbian surface-to-air missiles was considered too great.

Attack helicopters have always been troublesome. The U.S. Army lost over 5,000 helicopters in the Vietnam War. (Nor is this a uniquely American problem: The Soviets lost hundreds of Hind helicopters to mujahideen firing shoulder-launched Stinger missiles during their Afghan venture.)

This sorry chronicle raises the question: Why did the Army build helicopters in the first place?

It all goes back to the end of World War II, when the Air Force became an independent service of the armed forces. (Before and during the war, air forces were a branch of the Army.) In its first few years of independence, the Air Force became involved in tumultuous budget battles with the other services. Finally, in April 1948, Secretary of Defense James Forrestal called a meeting with the service chiefs in Key West, Fla., where they divvied up "roles and missions." The emerging document was called the Key West Agreement. An informal understanding that grew out of the accord was that the Air Force (and, to an extent, the Navy) would have a monopoly on fixed-wing combat planes.


The Key West Agreement specified that one mission of the Air Force would be close air support for Army troops on the battlefield. However, it soon became clear that the Air Force generals—enamored of the A-bomb and then the H-bomb—had no interest in this task. To their minds, the next war would be a nuclear war. Armies would play no serious role, so why divert airplanes to giving them cover?

The Army realized it would have to provide its own air support. Blocked from building its own fixed-wing planes, it built rotary-wing planes (or, in civilian parlance, helicopters). And it built thousands of them.


During the Vietnam War, the Air Force's reluctance—at times refusal—to provide close air support became a grave problem. Congressional hearings were held on the lack of any airplane dedicated to that mission. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara briefly brought a wing of the Navy's late-'40s A-1 fighter bombers out of mothballs to take up some of the slack.

Finally, the Army got bold and began research and development on a hybrid aircraft, a bizarre-looking fixed-wing helicopter called the Cheyenne.

McNamara killed the Cheyenne before it got off the ground, but meanwhile, an Air Force general named Richard Yudkin was furious about the Army's maneuver. He saw it as an infringement of the Key West Agreement and a raid on the Air Force's share of the budget. In response, he initiated the Air Force's very first dedicated close-air-support attack plane called the A-X, which grew into the A-10.

Yudkin was a bit of a rebel within the Air Force. The establishment generals (who, by the early '70s, were still dominated by the nuclear-bomber crowd) hated the idea of the A-X for the same reason they hated the close-air-support mission: It had nothing to do with the Air Force's bigger, more glamorous roles. Yudkin couldn't even get the Air Force R & D directorate to work on the project, so he set up his own staff to do it.

The A-10 rolled onto the tarmac in 1976. The brass still hated the thing. It survived only because of pork-barrel politics—it was built by Fairchild Industries in Bethpage, Long Island, home district of Rep. Joseph Addabbo, who was chairman of the House appropriations' defense subcommittee. The plan was to build 850 of the planes. By 1986, when Addabbo died, Fairchild had built just 627, and the program came to a crashing halt. No more A-10s were ordered, and 197 of those in existence were transferred to the Air National Guard and allowed to rot.

When the first Gulf War was being planned in 1990, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, the chief of U.S. Central Command, had to fight the Air Force to send over a mere 174 A-10s for his use. Yet in the course of the war, those A-10s knocked out roughly half of the 1,700 Iraqi tanks that were destroyed from the air, as well as several hundred armored personnel carriers and self-propelled artillery guns. They also conducted search and rescue operations, blew up roads and bridges, and hunted for Scuds.

Even the Air Force brass had to admit the planes had done a good job, and they kept them in the fleet. (They had planned on replacing all of them with modified F-16s.) Though the statistics aren't yet in, the A-10s seemed to do well in Gulf War II, especially now that the Army, Air Force, and Marines are more inclined to coordinate their battle plans.

The A-10 is an unsightly, lumbering beast of a plane. (It's commonly called the Warthog.) It flies low and slow, but its cockpit is made of titanium; it can be shot up very badly, all over, and still not crash. It was the only plane that the Desert Storm air commanders dared fly at under 15,000 feet. Its GAU-8 gun can fire 3,900 rounds of 30 mm armor-piercing ammo per minute. It can also fire Maverick air-to-ground missiles.

So here's a suggestion for Donald Rumsfeld: Deep-six the Apache, and restart the A-10.


Another highly educational piece:

Several lessons can be taken from this encounter:

  • high-altitude “precision” weapons are completely ineffective against dug-in opponent
  • A-10s have huge impact on enemy ground troops, both physical and psychological, which cannot be replicated by high-flying aircraft
  • entire encounter was accoplished by eyeball, with only barest information avaliable to A-10 pilots
  • radio contact was only established after the A-10s have already started attacking enemy positions
https://defenseissues.net/2013/03/23/why-usaf-hates-a-10-and-why-it-cant-be-replaced/
 
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While India is buying helicopters and building them left right and center, Pakistan has been looking to replace at least some of her own fleet of attack helicopters. While the Cobras gave sterling service, they are at their life's end, and only a few operational Cobras remain.

So Pakistan took its time to formulate a plan, after evaluating a number of available products. She also looked at a new niche element - the Mi-35 to insert commandos while providing them with fire support. In brief, this was what was available to Pakistan:

1. The Z-10. Was found to be of poor build quality and too heavy for effective operations in Pakistan
2. The Z-19. Too light
3. US new AH-1s. Pakistan was in the process of receiving these before relationships soured again. Even if it does receive a few more of them, they are too sanctions prone and too few to matter.
4. The T-129. Was the ultimate choice for the PA. However, with recent problems between the US and Turkey and US and Pakistan, its now become an issue as the powerplant, the heart of the aircraft, is American.


Here is my analysis of the problem. This is a COIN / CAS problem essentially, rather than just an issue about purchasing a platform. Two main scenarios:

1. Balochistan / NWFP where you need CAS / COIN like the US needs in Afghanistan. Incidentally, the best platform for this for the US was not the Apache but the A-10 Thunderbolt. This is because a plane can stay longer, have greater payload / armor than a helicopter, and are cheaper to purchase and run on a cpfh basis. At the same time, the A-10 could cover the troops for a long time, hanging up there, while other aircraft just came and left. The US grunts loved the A-10.

2. Defending against "Cold Start" basically a big blunder by a Hindutva extremist government. The only possibility of an armored thrust is between the desert and the fixed defences around Lahore sector. Here is where an armored battle will take place, and India is not only buying lots of more tanks, but a huge number of other armored vehicles. This is a serious threat despite nukes - a Nawaz government may not have the balls to use tactical nukes.

For thwarting an armored combined arms thrust, with SAM units and Apache and other attack helicopters, again, the best solution is NOT an attack helicopter. Attack helicopters are by design slower, with giant radar returns and will be hunted down by SAMs and the top radar equiped Apaches.

So what is the solution? Here me out:

If PA cannot get an attack helicopter, it can easily get an A-10 equivalent. According to a very senior LM / US mil person, the best replacement for the A-10 is the basic form of the British SABA. A relatively simple but sturdy plane, designed to counter an armored thrust in Europe, while fighting of attack helicopters. Was never put into production or even built as a prototype due to political changes, etc.

This can easily be built in Pakistan as the design is very simple and the parts, surprisingly, are easily available. VIZ:
1. The SABA is a single seat, single turboprop engined plane, with a pusher propeller, unlike other CAS turboprops, and more like a UAV design. This gives its enhanced survivability (engines are hiding behind like the A-10) while higher speeds (harder for IAF / SAMs to shoot down)

2. An engine of the class required is already produced by Ukraine, and is a highly mature and tested system, and would be cheap, given the economic condition there.

3. Use the Cirit as the major weapon system. Studies show that the 2.75 rockets can replace guns for basic CAS / COIN work and be highly effective.

4. Use the parts bin of the Chinese industry.

Cost for such a plane could easily be as little as 7 million USD and a major portion of this going to the local economy and in local currency.

The aircraft would be survivable and have STOL performance, meaning they can be based on semi-prepared runways, roads, flat fields.

Because of the inherent superiority of airplanes to helicopters in speed, range and loiter, they would easily overcome Indian attack helicopters and be Ababeels for any armored "cold" start.
Few corrections;

First batch of Vipers has been delivered.

COIN ops in FATA wont remain indefinite.. they are ending.

Instead of Crit missiles... we can use local Barq or other local solutions.

A version of SM is already flying with a FLIR and 2+ A2G missiles..

Which can be further modified into a light attack plane..
 
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I think UCAV's are a better option than armed trainer aircraft (Super Mushshak, etc) because

* they are cheaper to produce & operate. No pilot training required
* similar payload, i.e., 2x Burq (AR-1) anti-tank missiles (in case of Burraq)
* Super Mushshak ceiling is low, which increases risk of getting hit by short range AD systems like Strela-10. UCAV loss is more bearable than losing pilot+aircraft. Less risk to operators in any engagement

In 1988 Angolan Strela-10 shot down South African Mirage F-1. In 1991, during the Operation Desert Storm, two American A-10 Thunderbolt II ground-attack aircraft were lost one after another to Iraqi Strela-10 fire. In 2014 during ongoing military conflict in Ukraine, Ukrainian An-30 reconnaissance aircraft was lost to Strela-10 fire.

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/strela_10.htm


If 6 Burraq flights (i.e., 30 UCAV) are attached to every brigade deployed for countering CSD assault, it would prove an effective counter, IMO.



You mean YJ2080C2 armoured vehicle and Sabre-ER anti-tank/anti-aircraft missile?
The Turkish indegenous armed and surviliance UAVs are doing a great job in the Syrian front!! Pinpointing the targets day and night, and rocket propelled munitions are doing the rest of the job!! The Turkish folks have learnt in a hard way that if munitions aren't 100% indegenous never venture for the Wetern proxy terrorist scums.....
 
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Few corrections;

First batch of Vipers has been delivered.

COIN ops in FATA wont remain indefinite.. they are ending.

Instead of Crit missiles... we can use local Barq or other local solutions.

A version of SM is already flying with a FLIR and 2+ A2G missiles..

Which can be further modified into a light attack plane..

Would appreciate if you share a link indicating delivery. All I have heard are rumors... and if delivered, how many?
 
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I don't think they have been delivered otherwise it would have been on the news already. Even the delivery of used AH-1Fs from the US made press a few years back as have every other delivery of US weapons. It would be the case when the AH-1Zs are delivered as well.
 
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Would appreciate if you share a link indicating delivery. All I have heard are rumors... and if delivered, how many?

Pak Mil never advertises procurements or deliveries.. even AW choppers deliveries were only confirmed after journalists clicks John Maccains visit to FATA... A-100s yeara later at an exercise and many other examples..

Meanwhile here is the Viper’s confirmation.. a tender for hangars etc;

4E09F21C-3C4C-4EBD-B209-67BB43B655B0.jpeg
 
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The A-10 would be swatted out like flies against India. Their armored thrust will necessarily be accompanied by MANPADs, mobile SAMs, and AA guns. There is a reason why USAF wanted to discontinue its use.
 
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Hmmm... a tender for hangars does not confirm the arrival of helicopters my friend. Would like to see proper evidence.

The A-10 would be swatted out like flies against India. Their armored thrust will necessarily be accompanied by MANPADs, mobile SAMs, and AA guns. There is a reason why USAF wanted to discontinue its use.

A-10s, by most accounts, papers, reports, reason and evidence is a far more survivable platform than an attack helicopter, even the Apache. Please read the last few articles I just posted. There is no contest literally. The USAF has been wanting to retire them for highly political reasons, more than anything else.

Please check out post #19 on this thread. I will post more articles if you like, but the available research is very clear.

Here is some to get you started on survivability of the A-10 compared to the most heavily armored attack helicopter - the Apache.
https://www.military-quotes.com/forum/a10-vs-ah64-t1113.html
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=6459
https://defenseissues.net/2013/03/23/why-usaf-hates-a-10-and-why-it-cant-be-replaced/
http://www.rense.com/general38/a10.htm

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2003/04/chop_the_chopper.html

If you just look at the results even in OIF - A-10s accounted for HALF of all the tanks destroyed in the war. While Apaches got badly shot up, losing 10% of the fleet in a single engagement. And then there is Afghanistan and Kosovo, again... no comparison.
 
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Russia does have some excellent gunships, and the Su-25 to boot. The KA-52 would probably be near perfect as an attack helicopter for PA
 
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mi35 is not gunship sir?

pardon me - I forgot about that!

will PAAF get them in numbers? China is the better option to be churning this out in numbers in a joint venture - a la JF-17.
PAAF got 4 gunships from Russia - but the partnership isnt even close to what you have with China.
 
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