When will Pakistan become a 1st world country?

[Hassan Guy]

Yeah, we got a long way to go

 

[TankMan]

It was inspired by a decidedly Western political thought called communism which was furnaced in London by a German writer. It subsequently was applied in Russia and then spread to China.

Communism is the antithesis to what is considered Western. The West never accepted Communism - the East did. Therefore, calling it "decidedly Western" simply because Marx was German is misleading and ignores all the contributions to this ideology made by Lenin and Trotsky, who were Russian and Ukrainian, respectively.

 

[krakatoa]

shaed qyamat sai 5 10 minute pehle

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

It would need about three generations refreshing to reach 1st world. To put it bluntly it would need average Pakistani to think like a Japanese, Chinese, German, British, Canadian etc.

When a average Pakistani can live with homosexuality, gender equality, religious freedom, sexual freedom then Pakistan will have arrived at the 1st world station. We have to keep in mind these are symptomatic of being first world and not related to being Western, American etc. For example Chinese share more values with British then with Pakistani's. Ditto Japanese.
.

Keyword is Secularism

 

[TankMan]

The differance between China and Pakistan was the only a small elite in Pakistan inheritated from the colonial period followed what you call Westernized but the rest of 99% kept living and thinking like they had done for centuries which is what Pakistan is today. A small westernized elite but a mass of tradition.

By inherited system, I was referring to the governance and legal system. Why do you think the majority never adopted the colonial system? Because it had no basis in Pakistan's ground realities and was not made to benefit Pakistanis.
We need reform that system to something more suited to Pakistan and Pakistanis.

In China the CCP westernmized all of Chinese society by applying a communist thought and tearing the guts out of traditional Chinese order. Nothing from the past was left untouched. chinese society as whole went through a demolishing and rebuilding according to communist primciples - I think we can agree that communism is rooted in Western philosophy.

As I said in my previous post, Communism is considered to be the antithesis of what the West stands for. The West is all for Individualism and Capitalism - Communism is Collectivist. Just because Marx was German doesn't mean Communism is Western.

Communism developed as a revolutionary ideology. By definition, it was opposed to the dominant ideology in the West. That's why it flourished in the East instead.

This did not happen in Pakistan where the old order has remained intact but with a thin spray paint of western elite on top.

What do you mean by 'old order'? The Mughals? Pakistan's problem is that there is no 'old order'.
What's intact is a flawed Western colonial system.
Most of the Pakistan Penal Code is from Colonial times, for example . http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/1...n-laws-remain-those-of-our-british-overlords/

The problem is not that we don't have enough Western thought. We have too much of it. The Elite embraces it completely, and the 99% rejects it completely.

What's needed is something in between.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And try this in Pakistan.

* Gender equality
* No religion whatsoever
* Birth control - max two kids.

These are things that resonate with the society I live in, UK. Typically most are agnostic or causal Christians, most believe in gender equality and most don't have more than two kids.

* Gender equality
* No religion whatsoever
* Birth control - max two kids.

All the above were forced through by the CCP in China like a tractor chewing through mud. The result was a sea change to a traditional Chinese society - which today is more in tempo with UK then say a backward, religious infested, traditional culture arrested society like Pakistan.

And just to remove any illusions held by Pakistani's - if they think the West is secular, well get used to China, which is hyper-secular.

*Like I said before China is reteaching the West how to be 'the real deal West'.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

And try this in Pakistan.

* Gender equality
* No religion whatsoever
* Birth control - max two kids.

These are things that resonate with the society I live in, UK. Typically most are agnostic or causal Christians, most believe in gender equality and most don't have more than two kids.

* Gender equality
* No religion whatsoever
* Birth control - max two kids.

All the above were forced through by the CCP in China like a tractor chewing through mud. The result was a sea change to a traditional Chinese society - which today is more in tempo with UK then say a backward, religious infested, traditional culture arrested society like Pakistan.

there are many frank things that i would like to say here, but it might offend some of our dear religious-devout and masculinity-centric Pakistani friends here.

So all i will say is Secularism is the major factor.

 

[TankMan]

And try this in Pakistan.
* No religion whatsoever

Why? We've already agreed that development can come without secularism. Why, then, should we abandon our religion? This is where I disagree strongly with you. This is what I mean when I say blindly copying the West.

To abandon religion would be to admit that it is false and flawed. I refuse to admit that - no one is practicing religious ethics in Pakistan, regardless of what they claim, This doesn't mean religion is at fault for our shortcomings.

* Gender equality
* No religion whatsoever
* Birth control - max two kids.

All the above were forced through by the CCP in China like a tractor chewing through mud. The result was a sea change to a traditional Chinese society - which today is more in tempo with UK then say a backward, religious infested, traditional culture arrested society like Pakistan.

The CCP's ideology is fundamentally different from the UK's.

In the UK, never mind Communism, even a Socialist like Corbyn results in the full weight of the system and the Capitalist machinery coming in to suppress him. The UK can barely handle the NHS without jumping at any opportunities to sacrifice it at the altar of Capitalism - I highly doubt they would be happy with a Chinese-style government.

The main similarity is that both countries are developed - one developed over the course of several hundred years, and the other developed over the course of barely half a century, but at a cost.

Anyway, forcibly removing religion does indeed sound like a really good way to unite Pakistanis.

Against you, that is.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

That's why it flourished in the East instead.

Communism is a product of the Western experiance and as much part of it as LGBT. It informed most of the West at some level. It did not flourish in the east. Russia is part of the 'Western culture'. Most of Eastern Europe was Communist until 1990. Only China and Vietnam went red. In the wider West it influenced various political schools like Fabianism and most socialist left leaning parties in Europe have at some level been influenced by Communism. They are 'soft' forms of Communism. Like for example the Labour Party in UK. Most of the left in Europe is heavily influenced by Marxism.

 

[TankMan]

there are many frank things that i would like to say here, but it might offend some of our dear religious-devout and masculinity-centric Pakistani friends here.

So all i will say is Secularism is the major factor.

This is disproved by the fact that development came to the West before Secularism did. Therefore, a country can be developed without being secular. Like the West was, for a short period of time.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

This is disproved by the fact that development came to the West before Secularism did. Therefore, a country can be developed without being secular. Like the West was, for a short period of time.

Ok. So is Pakistan developed?

 

[TankMan]

Russia is part of the 'Western culture'. Most of Eastern Europe was Communist until 1990

Well now that we're extending the meaning of 'Western' well beyond its geographical constraints, let's just declare the entirety of planet Earth 'Western' and call it a day.

Ok. So is Pakistan developed?

No. But not because it is not secular enough. I could fill several books with all the reasons as to why Pakistan is not developed, and a lack of secularism isn't one of them.
As @Kaptaan put it, things like secularism are not a precursor to development.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

there are many frank things that i would like to say here, but it might offend some of our dear religious-devout and masculinity-centric Pakistani friends here.

So all i will say is Secularism is the major factor.

You know what I am entirely impressed by Chinese? Their ability to refrain from and display extreme diplomatic prowess. Chinese on the whole will not call 'a spade a spade' but if need be and out of courtesy call it spoon.

I know most Chinese think religion is lot of garbage and best flushed down the water closet. The CCP has done a remarkable job of demolishing old China. It needed to do it. Somewthing that is not working needs to be demolished. You don't keep doing something which failed in your parents time, failed in your grand parents time and failed before them. You dump the damn thing. You dump everything that has not worked. That is exactly what CCP did in China and in doing so laid the foundation of the modern China, reinvigiorated with the best practices anda new order which to put it bluntly is taking what the West formulated to altogether another level.

In Pakistan it's all about 'lets keep our culture, our religion' while living lives slightly better than animals and then surviving on dole outs from the West or like my parents and millions more escaping to the West to live more economically rewarding lifestyle.

@TankMan I said things like LGBT are successor to development. Secularism on the other hand is deeply tied to development. As societies develop they become secular. Secularism was central to Western Renaissance. The hold of the church had to be broken for progress to take place. It happened either through evolution like in UK or revolution in France or Russia but all the same secularization was part and parcel of development process.

 

[TankMan]

You dump the damn thing. You dump everything that has not worked. That is exactly what CCP did in China and in doing so laid the foundation of the modern China,

Blaming something for not working is useless when you haven't attempted to follow it properly.

Tell me, are all Pakistani laws followed and enforced properly? Are religious ethics actually being implemented in Pakistan?
If the answer to that is no, that means 'dumping' the ideology won't change anything.

Say we do what China did, according to you, and completely demolish and rebuild Pakistan from the ground up with a Western ideology. Do you think it'll make any difference at all if we allow our governance to remain the way it is?

The Soviets tried this as well - they literally killed off the old Tsarist system.
But they failed to implement Communism in its spirit, and failed to modify it to suit their country. I don't need to tell you what happened to the Soviet Union.

 

[Azadkashmir]

You know what I entirely impressed by Chinese? Their ability to refrain from and display extreme diplomatic prowess. Chinese on the whole will not call 'a spade a spade' but if need be and out of courtesy call it spoon.

I know most Chinese think religion is lot of garbage and best flushed down the water closet. The CCP has done a remarkable job of demolishing old China. It needed to do it. Somewthing that is not working needs to be demolished. You don't keep doing something which failed in your parents time, failed in your grand parents time and failed before them. You dump the damn thing. You dump everything that has not worked. That is exactly what CCP did in China and in doing so laid the foundation of the modern China, reinvigiorated with the best practices anda new order which to put it bluntly is taking what the West formulated to altogether another level.

In Pakistan it's all about 'lets keep our culture, our religion' while living lives slightly better than animals and then surviving on dole outs from the West or like my parents and millions more escaping to the West to live more economically rewarding lifestyle.

@TankMan I said things like LGBT are successor to development. Secularism is deeply tied to development. As societies develop they become secular. Secularism was central to Western Renaissance. The hold of the church had to be broken for progress to take place. It happened either through evolution like in UK or revolution in France or Russia but all the same secularization was part and parcel of development process.

here welcome talmudic communism.
Israel Epstein, is a naturalized Chinese citizen , and a member of the Communist party of China , he is the Jew responsible for the Cultural revolution which exterminated Chinese culture and killed up to five million innocent people. He wrote Mao’s little book. Which was the premise on which the Cultural Revolution was designed to be waged on the Chinese population