Hassan Guy
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Yeah, we got a long way to go
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Communism is the antithesis to what is considered Western. The West never accepted Communism - the East did. Therefore, calling it "decidedly Western" simply because Marx was German is misleading and ignores all the contributions to this ideology made by Lenin and Trotsky, who were Russian and Ukrainian, respectively.It was inspired by a decidedly Western political thought called communism which was furnaced in London by a German writer. It subsequently was applied in Russia and then spread to China.
It would need about three generations refreshing to reach 1st world. To put it bluntly it would need average Pakistani to think like a Japanese, Chinese, German, British, Canadian etc.
When a average Pakistani can live with homosexuality, gender equality, religious freedom, sexual freedom then Pakistan will have arrived at the 1st world station. We have to keep in mind these are symptomatic of being first world and not related to being Western, American etc. For example Chinese share more values with British then with Pakistani's. Ditto Japanese.
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By inherited system, I was referring to the governance and legal system. Why do you think the majority never adopted the colonial system? Because it had no basis in Pakistan's ground realities and was not made to benefit Pakistanis.The differance between China and Pakistan was the only a small elite in Pakistan inheritated from the colonial period followed what you call Westernized but the rest of 99% kept living and thinking like they had done for centuries which is what Pakistan is today. A small westernized elite but a mass of tradition.
As I said in my previous post, Communism is considered to be the antithesis of what the West stands for. The West is all for Individualism and Capitalism - Communism is Collectivist. Just because Marx was German doesn't mean Communism is Western.In China the CCP westernmized all of Chinese society by applying a communist thought and tearing the guts out of traditional Chinese order. Nothing from the past was left untouched. chinese society as whole went through a demolishing and rebuilding according to communist primciples - I think we can agree that communism is rooted in Western philosophy.
What do you mean by 'old order'? The Mughals? Pakistan's problem is that there is no 'old order'.This did not happen in Pakistan where the old order has remained intact but with a thin spray paint of western elite on top.
And try this in Pakistan.
* Gender equality
* No religion whatsoever
* Birth control - max two kids.
These are things that resonate with the society I live in, UK. Typically most are agnostic or causal Christians, most believe in gender equality and most don't have more than two kids.
* Gender equality
* No religion whatsoever
* Birth control - max two kids.
All the above were forced through by the CCP in China like a tractor chewing through mud. The result was a sea change to a traditional Chinese society - which today is more in tempo with UK then say a backward, religious infested, traditional culture arrested society like Pakistan.
Why? We've already agreed that development can come without secularism. Why, then, should we abandon our religion? This is where I disagree strongly with you. This is what I mean when I say blindly copying the West.And try this in Pakistan.
* No religion whatsoever
The CCP's ideology is fundamentally different from the UK's.* Gender equality
* No religion whatsoever
* Birth control - max two kids.
All the above were forced through by the CCP in China like a tractor chewing through mud. The result was a sea change to a traditional Chinese society - which today is more in tempo with UK then say a backward, religious infested, traditional culture arrested society like Pakistan.
Communism is a product of the Western experiance and as much part of it as LGBT. It informed most of the West at some level. It did not flourish in the east. Russia is part of the 'Western culture'. Most of Eastern Europe was Communist until 1990. Only China and Vietnam went red. In the wider West it influenced various political schools like Fabianism and most socialist left leaning parties in Europe have at some level been influenced by Communism. They are 'soft' forms of Communism. Like for example the Labour Party in UK. Most of the left in Europe is heavily influenced by Marxism.That's why it flourished in the East instead.
This is disproved by the fact that development came to the West before Secularism did. Therefore, a country can be developed without being secular. Like the West was, for a short period of time.there are many frank things that i would like to say here, but it might offend some of our dear religious-devout and masculinity-centric Pakistani friends here.
So all i will say is Secularism is the major factor.
This is disproved by the fact that development came to the West before Secularism did. Therefore, a country can be developed without being secular. Like the West was, for a short period of time.
Well now that we're extending the meaning of 'Western' well beyond its geographical constraints, let's just declare the entirety of planet Earth 'Western' and call it a day.Russia is part of the 'Western culture'. Most of Eastern Europe was Communist until 1990
No. But not because it is not secular enough. I could fill several books with all the reasons as to why Pakistan is not developed, and a lack of secularism isn't one of them.Ok. So is Pakistan developed?
You know what I am entirely impressed by Chinese? Their ability to refrain from and display extreme diplomatic prowess. Chinese on the whole will not call 'a spade a spade' but if need be and out of courtesy call it spoon.there are many frank things that i would like to say here, but it might offend some of our dear religious-devout and masculinity-centric Pakistani friends here.
So all i will say is Secularism is the major factor.
Blaming something for not working is useless when you haven't attempted to follow it properly.You dump the damn thing. You dump everything that has not worked. That is exactly what CCP did in China and in doing so laid the foundation of the modern China,
You know what I entirely impressed by Chinese? Their ability to refrain from and display extreme diplomatic prowess. Chinese on the whole will not call 'a spade a spade' but if need be and out of courtesy call it spoon.
I know most Chinese think religion is lot of garbage and best flushed down the water closet. The CCP has done a remarkable job of demolishing old China. It needed to do it. Somewthing that is not working needs to be demolished. You don't keep doing something which failed in your parents time, failed in your grand parents time and failed before them. You dump the damn thing. You dump everything that has not worked. That is exactly what CCP did in China and in doing so laid the foundation of the modern China, reinvigiorated with the best practices anda new order which to put it bluntly is taking what the West formulated to altogether another level.
In Pakistan it's all about 'lets keep our culture, our religion' while living lives slightly better than animals and then surviving on dole outs from the West or like my parents and millions more escaping to the West to live more economically rewarding lifestyle.
@TankMan I said things like LGBT are successor to development. Secularism is deeply tied to development. As societies develop they become secular. Secularism was central to Western Renaissance. The hold of the church had to be broken for progress to take place. It happened either through evolution like in UK or revolution in France or Russia but all the same secularization was part and parcel of development process.