When Niazis contested for throne of Delhi

[Shahmir]

Why do you think hindkowans exist only in cities like peshawer city, kohat city and nowshera city?. And the entire rural population of these districts is pashtun?
Here what happened.
1-The original inhabitants of KPK were hindus, with same ethnic and linguistic composition as punjab. Basically KPK was part of punjab. Its northren portion was dardic though.
2- Mehmud ghaznavi destroyed the entire hindu population of KPK. The survivors fled to other side of indus. It was a move to create buffer zone between his domain and hindostan. Dilazak pashtuns, who were serving as soldiers in his army were given these lands ( malakand division, peshawer division, hazara division along with attock.
3- The southren desert-like dry areas of KPK didnt get populated for atleast three centuries, had presence of only few pastoral nomad jats according to bannu gazetteer. Then defeated tribes from afghanistan begin to settle in these undesirable lands in 14th and 15th centuries.
4- Pashtun tribes hired craftsmen, karigar from punjab side , tarkhan, lohar, mochi, kumhar, hajam etc. They were "kami" of your punjab but were required by pashtuns for their skills. According to 1901 and 1911 census, they are as many as 20 to 30% of pashto speakers in KPK.
5- Mughals had control over cities of KPK, basically peshawer city became island/colony of mughals and their indian subjects within hostile pashtun country. The city was walled and safe from rural pashtun population surrounding the city. Sikhs , being punjabis, also brought punjabis of all three religions to the city.
5- Hindki/hindko was hindi some time ago, coined by pashtuns for the hindi population, present day punjabis, who were mostly hindus at that time.

You are giving a very black and white picture between land owners and kasabgars like they belong to two different races but the reality I beileve would be somewhere in the middle (the gray area) with some of the kasabgars/kammi being actually degraded genuine pashtuns, it is also equally probable that some of the families in the tribal land owner fold have moved up the social ladder from kasabgars. The same holds true for kammis of punjab.

 

[Multani]

I remember you said KPK hindko muslims are not natives but came with Ranjeet army. Well you are 100% wrong, the fact is pashtuns has been making majority in these areas recently. The process acclerated after 47.

yes that is true

Why do you think hindkowans exist only in cities like peshawer city, kohat city and nowshera city?. And the entire rural population of these districts is pashtun?
Here what happened.
1-The original inhabitants of KPK were hindus, with same ethnic and linguistic composition as punjab. Basically KPK was part of punjab. Its northren portion was dardic though.
2- Mehmud ghaznavi destroyed the entire hindu population of KPK. The survivors fled to other side of indus. It was a move to create buffer zone between his domain and hindostan. Dilazak pashtuns, who were serving as soldiers in his army were given these lands ( malakand division, peshawer division, hazara division along with attock.
3- The southren desert-like dry areas of KPK didnt get populated for atleast three centuries, had presence of only few pastoral nomad jats according to bannu gazetteer. Then defeated tribes from afghanistan begin to settle in these undesirable lands in 14th and 15th centuries.
4- Pashtun tribes hired craftsmen, karigar from punjab side , tarkhan, lohar, mochi, kumhar, hajam etc. They were "kami" of your punjab but were required by pashtuns for their skills. According to 1901 and 1911 census, they are as many as 20 to 30% of pashto speakers in KPK.
5- Mughals had control over cities of KPK, basically peshawer city became island/colony of mughals and their indian subjects within hostile pashtun country. The city was walled and safe from rural pashtun population surrounding the city. Sikhs , being punjabis, also brought punjabis of all three religions to the city.
5- Hindki/hindko was hindi some time ago, coined by pashtuns for the hindi population, present day punjabis, who were mostly hindus at that time.

you are correct. However, Mahmud Ghaznavi did not destroy the hindu population. He destroyed the hindu kingdom, but not the population. He did not kill women and children. Muslims of his time and he himself, were not genocidal maniacs. They did not kill innocents like the animals today. Through out Islamic history, Muslims were the most tolerant, and respective of humanity and culture. That is why you have huge non-Muslim minorities to this day among Muslims, like Afghanistan had a big jewish population until th Afghan war, whil Europe was cleansed off its Muslim population and the jews in many areas. Hindus remained in KPK and made up the majority in most regions. High caste hindus migrated, and those who lost lands to Pashtuns migrated. Slowly, tribal warfare caused hindus to migrate even more, and more Pashtuns moved in. A big chunck of the hindu population converted and were assimiliated into Pashtuns. It would not be an exaggeration that one trd of the Pashtuns are hindu converted who were assimilated either through war slavery or through intermarriage and conversion over the centuries. And then you have the Punjab Kammis, the vast majority of whom also came from hindu backgrounds and now mixed into Pashtuns.

Mughals of Punjab today still have a deep connection to Nowshera ad Peshawar/Charsadda

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

yes that is true



you are correct. However, Mahmud Ghaznavi did not destroy the hindu population. He destroyed the hindu kingdom, but not the population. He did not kill women and children. Muslims of his time and he himself, were not genocidal maniacs. They did not kill innocents like the animals today. Through out Islamic history, Muslims were the most tolerant, and respective of humanity and culture. That is why you have huge non-Muslim minorities to this day among Muslims, like Afghanistan had a big jewish population until th Afghan war, whil Europe was cleansed off its Muslim population and the jews in many areas. Hindus remained in KPK and made up the majority in most regions. High caste hindus migrated, and those who lost lands to Pashtuns migrated. Slowly, tribal warfare caused hindus to migrate even more, and more Pashtuns moved in. A big chunck of the hindu population converted and were assimiliated into Pashtuns. It would not be an exaggeration that one trd of the Pashtuns are hindu converted who were assimilated either through war slavery or through intermarriage and conversion over the centuries. And then you have the Punjab Kammis, the vast majority of whom also came from hindu backgrounds and now mixed into Pashtuns.

Mughals of Punjab today still have a deep connection to Nowshera ad Peshawar/Charsadda

There were many hindus in my region but they were not land owners and were not considered pashtuns. The karigars that were brought from punjab and india, were mostly hindus. Most converted to islam with time while some remained hindus who migrated to india in 1947. The hindu kapoors of peshawers were originally from punjab.
Ghaznavi killed or expelled the hindu population of kpk, turks were cruel and merciless people, they were not arabs.

 

[Multani]

There were many hindus in my region but they were not land owners and were not considered pashtuns. The karigars that were brought from punjab and india, were mostly hindus. Most converted to islam with time while some remained hindus who migrated to india in 1947. The hindu kapoors of peshawers were originally from punjab.
Ghaznavi killed or expelled the hindu population of kpk, turks were cruel and merciless people, they were not arabs.

Ghaznavi killed soldiers who were fighting him. He was not a shameless coward that would kill women and children, which is illegal in war in Islam. Muslims are not like pagans. turks were not cruel or merciless people. If turks were cruel and merciless then why was Turkey 20% Christian before Kemal pasha took over? Why was Azerbaijan 15% Christian before the Armenian war?

Bukhara and Samarqand had a huge jewish population until 1900s.

The Turkish Muslims were the most tolerant in Europe. Proof? Half the jewish population from Spain migrated to Turkey to save themselves!

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

You are giving a very black and white picture between land owners and kasabgars like they belong to two different races but the reality I beileve would be somewhere in the middle (the gray area) with some of the kasabgars/kammi being actually degraded genuine pashtuns, it is also equally probable that some of the families in the tribal fold have moved up the social ladder from kasabgars. The same holds true for kammis of punjab.

Its possible. But if you look at physical features of these 'kamis', who are called kamasal and kasabgar in pashto, they look different from true pashtuns. They have dark complexions on average and they do not follow the code of pashtunwali. Their habits and traits are different, they are very timid and you wont see them with guns.
Even though they speak pashto, they are not considered pashtuns. They do not have lands. In recent years they have compensated it by focusing on education and jobs. They are at very high posts.
They introduce themeselves as pashtuns of the tribe among which they live.

 

[Shahmir]

There were many hindus in my region but they were not land owners and were not considered pashtuns. The karigars that were brought from punjab and india, were mostly hindus. Most converted to islam with time while some remained hindus who migrated to india in 1947. The hindu kapoors of peshawers were originally from punjab.
Ghaznavi killed or expelled the hindu population of kpk, turks were cruel and merciless people, they were not arabs.

I cannot say about other turks but Timur (Tamerlane) was indeed brutal in his invasions irrespective of the people and the place he invaded.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

I cannot say about other turks but Timur (Tamerlane) was indeed brutal in his invasions irrespective of the people and the place he invaded.

There are ruins along the bank of river gambila (tochi) in my district. They are no longer in the shape of buildings but you can guess what they were once. Large number of human skeletons were discovered along the entire bank of river, still some skeletons are discovered from time to time. For ordinary man , they are just dead ones of past. But for a researcher, they hint at genocide , as they are clustered togather, at the ruins on bank where no populated areas are nearby , so they are not graves. I have thought about it, who could have done it?. My tribe has settled in lakki marwat in akbar times, niazis before them settled in time of bahlol lodhi and before that lakki marwat was depopulated desert according to historians. Now marwats didnt have the culture of buildings even in 1842, they used to live in tents and were semi nomads. It means those ruins of buildings along the river gambila were built by people before arrival of pashtuns. It all hints towards mahmood ghaznavi.

 

[Multani]

I cannot say about other turks but Timur (Tamerlane) was indeed brutal in his invasions irrespective of the people and the place he invaded.

timur was one man, a murderer

There are ruins along the bank of river gambila (tochi) in my district. They are no longer in the shape of buildings but you can guess what they were once. Large number of human skeletons were discovered along the entire bank of river, still some skeletons are discovered from time to time. For ordinary man , they are just dead ones of past. But for a researcher, they hint at genocide , as they are clustered togather, at the ruins on bank where no populated areas are nearby , so they are not graves. I have thought about it, who could have done it?. My tribe has settled in lakki marwat in akbar times, niazis before them settled in time of bahlol lodhi and before that lakki marwat was depopulated desert according to historians. Now marwats didnt have the culture of buildings even in 1842, they used to live in tents and were semi nomads. It means those ruins of buildings along the river gambila were built by people before arrival of pashtuns. It all hints towards mahmood ghaznavi.

there are ruins all over Punjab too

 

[Butchcassidy]

30% in central punjab and overall 20% in Punjab.

Thats interesting bro, what is ur take on the difference in caucasian and NE european components in jatts from west vs east punjab. It is interesting because my family being originally from west punjab has greater caucasian component and lower NE component compared to jatts from east punjab and harayana.

 

[jandk]

Thats interesting bro, what is ur take on the difference in caucasian and NE european components in jatts from west vs east punjab. It is interesting because my family being originally from west punjab has greater caucasian component and lower NE component compared to jatts from east punjab and harayana.

Bro your ancestors are from West Punjab? What is your opinion on non Jatt Sikhs of J&K? They are often more West Asian looking than Punjabi jatts.

 

[Butchcassidy]

Bro your ancestors are from West Punjab? What is your opinion on non Jatt Sikhs of J&K? They are often more West Asian looking than Punjabi jatts.

Yes bro, sialkot district. Most sikhs in J and K migrated from poonch, rajauri, bagh, mirpur and kotli areas of j and K. Some migrated from Potohar plateau. Essentially they are paharis and speak that dialect of Punjabi. Looks vary a lot so cannot generalize. You will essentially find a whole spectrum of looks within a given community. Some punjabi jatts can be very fair eg KPS Gill. I know a lot of dogra rajputs from jammu region whom you will not be able to distinguish from west punjabis. The gujjars from J and K actually look quite different

 

[Shahmir]

Thats interesting bro, what is ur take on the difference in caucasian and NE european components in jatts from west vs east punjab. It is interesting because my family being originally from west punjab has greater caucasian component and lower NE component compared to jatts from east punjab and harayana.

Are you jatt sikh from india, if that is the case then the theory that some people were presenting on harappadna.org that higher caucasian component among west punjab muslims (jatts included) is due to absorption of west asian muslims over the centuries (they are very high in caucasian component) but that would be odd if it turns out that even non-muslim people having origin in pakistani punjab also exhibit same tendency of higher caucasian vs NE euro component compared to east punjab and haryan jats.

 

[Multani]

Are you jatt sikh from india, if the case then the theory that some people were presenting on harappadna.org that higher caucasian component among west punjab muslims (jatts included) is due to absorption of west asian muslims over the centuries (they are very high in caucasian component) but that would be odd if it turns out that even non-muslim people having origin in pakistani punjab also exhibit same tendency of higher caucasian vs NE component compared to east punjab and haryan jats.

brother, r u the same personality as Nuri Natt? or @shan

 

[Shahmir]

brother, r u the same personality as Nuri Natt? or @shan

No I am not but I have interest in population genetics too, I am following this topic since last 7 or 8 years on different subject specific forums , blogs etc.

 

[Multani]

No I am not but I have interest in population genetics too, I am following this topic since last 7 or 8 years on different subject specific forums , blogs etc.

ok thanks