When Muslim, Sikh and Hindu soldiers fought together (WWII)

[Spring Onion]

I have read the Akhand Bharat Crap only in Posts made by Pakistnai friends....No Indian talks about Akhand bharat....... until and unless he is a fanatic.....

Dont you think so this claim will make the political parties which throughout the years have been part of coalition governments in India, as fanatics.

 

[EjazR]

That speech was made at 1930. Check what he said after that:

Iqbal elucidated to Jinnah his vision of a separate Muslim state in a letter sent on June 21, 1937:

"A separate federation of Muslim Provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of Non-Muslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are."

Speaking about the political future of Muslims in India, Iqbal said:

"There is only one way out. Muslims should strengthen Jinnah's hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it, our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defence of our national existence.... The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims."

Muhammad Iqbal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, no where does he propound Two Nation Theory. I hope you can agree with me on that now. The only point I wanted to make was Two Nation theory was first propounded and explicitly articulated by a Hindu extremist.

It was only in 1940 when the actual demand for Pakistan was put forward by Jinnah that the Two Nation Theory was put forward as a Muslim league point of view. Obviously Sarvarkar vigorously agreed and supported that. By the mid 1940s, the situation had deteriorated (with obvious help from the British) to such an extent that Pakistan became inevitable.


And don't worry Pakistan is not joining India. Neither does India want to join Pakistan. They will stay independent countries. Even Nepal which is a Hindu Kingdom has not and will not join India.

They day of empire building are over. There is no ruler in a modern democratic country. A modern society is not a dictatorship. The Indian Government is there to serve the people of India and if they do not fulfill their job as public servants, then they will shown the door by the electorate.


And there is no reason why both Pakistan and India can become great powers, but before that they would have to become allies first. If France and Germany can do it, If Japan and the US can do it. Where many more millions were killed than what were killed during the partition. Then so can India and Pakistan.

 

[glomex]

Dont you think so this claim will make the political parties which throughout the years have been part of coalition governments in India, as fanatics.

Thats your view of looking at things..........

But yes there are some Hard line Parties in Indian Politics....they do exist everywhere....Just like Muslim League In Pakistan... They come to power when secular parties fail...or the vision gets skewed for sometime....

 

[Omar1984]

Again, no where does he propound Two Nation Theory. I hope you can agree with me on that now. The only point I wanted to make was Two Nation theory was first propounded and explicitly articulated by a Hindu extremist.

Two nation theory means a separate nation for Muslims and Allama Iqbal wanted a separate nation for Mulsims. I gave numerous quotes from him.

"I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single state. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated Northwest Indian Muslim state appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of Northwest India." - 1930

"A separate federation of Muslim Provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of Non-Muslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are." - 1937

"There is only one way out. Muslims should strengthen Jinnah's hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it, our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defence of our national existence.... The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims."

Muhammad Iqbal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was only in 1940 when the actual demand for Pakistan was put forward by Jinnah that the Two Nation Theory was put forward as a Muslim league point of view. Obviously Sarvarkar vigorously agreed and supported that. By the mid 1940s, the situation had deteriorated (with obvious help from the British) to such an extent that Pakistan became inevitable.

Sarvarkar wanted all the Muslims of British India, including what is now Pakistan, to leave the subcontinent and form a country somewhere in the Middle East..that is not what we had in mind.

Two-Nation Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And there is no reason why both Pakistan and India can become great powers, but before that they would have to become allies first. If France and Germany can do it, If Japan and the US can do it. Where many more millions were killed than what were killed during the partition. Then so can India and Pakistan.

Settle Kashmir dispute and Sir Creek dispute and then maybe we can think about being allies.

 

[waraich66]

OK WHY DONT YOU JUST GO TO INDIA?

Times have changed since Muslims ruled India, now they have Democracy. In democracy you have elections, majority wins...India is more than 80% hindu (more than 900 million hindus) accept that fact, and they have democracy and will never return to the times Muslims ruled India.
Muslims will forever be minority there even if Pakistan joins India (ALLAH NA KARAY).

And check this:

Who is responsible for this condition of muslims in india? if we lived together in India , muslim will be part of government and more prosper .

 

[ANDUBYLL]

Dont you think so this claim will make the political parties which throughout the years have been part of coalition governments in India, as fanatics.

Welcome back after a long hiatus, maam .

Now if only we include Kashmir, this thread will have everything (bar the original discussion, of course )

 

[Omar1984]

Who is responsible for this condition of muslims in india? if we lived together in India , muslim will be part of government and more prosper .

Dont blame Pakistanis for how Muslims are treated in India, they chose to stay with India in 1947 and took Indian Congress side over the Muslim League.

Now they should live with Hindus thats what they wanted.

We are Pakistanis and Pakistan is our homeland..not India.

 

[EjazR]

Dont you think so this claim will make the political parties which throughout the years have been part of coalition governments in India, as fanatics.

As far as I know, there were only a few BJP/RSS ideologues who talked about it. Even Advani is against the concept of Akhand Bharat (which means undivided India). And yes you are right, they are fanatics - atleast the ones who articulate this.

 

[glomex]

Dont blame Pakistanis for how Muslims are treated in India, they chose to stay with India in 1947 and took Indian Congress side over the Muslim League.

Now they should live with Hindus thats what they wanted.

We are Pakistanis and Pakistan is our homeland..not India.

No one has blamed Pakistan in this thread till now....I don't know how you come up with these funny statements......


Muslims In India chose to live in India ...it was their decision.... and no one is blaming Pakistan for that.........

You have your country... run it the way you want....and let us run our country the way we want.....Life will be simple for all....

 

[Spring Onion]

Who is responsible for this condition of muslims in india? if we lived together in India , muslim will be part of government and more prosper .

NO that was not possible thats why idea of a separate land was floated.

I believe that the primary reason for the separation was the economic one viz viz Muslims. Its just later that we now started realising that yes Faith of Muslims would have been compromised if we stayed togather in India.

 

[Spring Onion]

As far as I know, there were only a few BJP/RSS ideologues who talked about it. Even Advani is against the concept of Akhand Bharat (which means undivided India). And yes you are right, they are fanatics - atleast the ones who articulate this.

The basis of RSS and other fundamentalist Hindu organisations is Akhand Bharat so you can not say only few in RSS or Bajrang Dal have this ideology.

As far as BJP is concerned the few ideologues there are the powerful ones.

Advani is now too old to hold any mustering power so we have seen change in his views recently. And if you remember the old man was dicthed by BJP and Indians when he praised Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

---------- Post added at 06:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 PM ----------

Welcome back after a long hiatus, maam .

Now if only we include Kashmir, this thread will have everything (bar the original discussion, of course )

Thank you.

Better stick to the topic and do not bring in Kashmir.

 

[EjazR]

Two nation theory means a separate nation for Muslims and Allama Iqbal wanted a separate nation for Mulsims. I gave numerous quotes from him.

"I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single state. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated Northwest Indian Muslim state appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of Northwest India." - 1930

"A separate federation of Muslim Provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of Non-Muslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are." - 1937

"There is only one way out. Muslims should strengthen Jinnah's hands. They should join the Muslim League. Indian question, as is now being solved, can be countered by our united front against both the Hindus and the English. Without it, our demands are not going to be accepted. People say our demands smack of communalism. This is sheer propaganda. These demands relate to the defence of our national existence.... The united front can be formed under the leadership of the Muslim League. And the Muslim League can succeed only on account of Jinnah. Now none but Jinnah is capable of leading the Muslims."

Muhammad Iqbal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Sarvarkar wanted all the Muslims of British India, including what is now Pakistan, to leave the subcontinent and form a country somewhere in the Middle East..that is not what we had in mind.

Two-Nation Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Settle Kashmir dispute and Sir Creek dispute and then maybe we can think about being allies.

Like I said, Sarvarkar was the first person to propound this theory explicitly and Iqbal didn't use the words or the concept in any of his speeches or letters. In fact the undivided Punjab province was only 55-60% muslim and Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs were always intended to be part of the "muslim majority" unit. Even Jinnah wanted that right up to the partition plan.

Although I agree that MA Jinnah explicitly mentioned the two nation theory, the first of which was on 1940 in Lahore.

Yes, Kashmir need to be settled, but only according to their will. But there are vested interests that don't want that to happen. Not only in Indian and Pakistani establishment but internationally as well. I suggest some recently declassified documents of Churchill letters to British Indian officers in the 1940s and it is just chilling the way he looked at this issue.

 

[glomex]

The basis of RSS and other fundamentalist Hindu organisations is Akhand Bharat so you can not say only few in RSS or Bajrang Dal have this ideology.

As far as BJP is concerned the few ideologues there are the powerful ones.

Advani is now too old to hold any mustering power so we have seen change in his views recently. And if you remember the old man was dicthed by BJP and Indians when he praised Muhammad Ali Jinnah.
.

I have heard multiple political speeches by these RSS and BJP...and other folks...but I don't remember anyone shouting about Akhand Bharat...

Though they do propagate the theory of Hindu Dharma...and Hindu nationalism... similar to the theories of Muslim Nationalism In Pakistan....

The word Akhand Bharat and its explanation does not even exist in Indian School books......it died with Partition of India. But I guess Pakistani writers have been using this term in while writing Text books..and articles....

 

[niaz]

Quaid proposed and had his 14 points resolution passed by the All India Muslim League 1928. When demand for separate electorate was accepted by the British Government in the Government of India Act of 1935, two nation theory was in place. 1937 election were held on the basis of separate electorate.

For the record I note the 14 points
The Fourteen Points

1.The form of the future constitution should be federal with the residuary powers vested in the provinces.

2.A uniform measure of autonomy shall be granted to all provinces.

3.All legislatures in the country and other elected bodies shall be constituted on the definite principle of adequate and effective representation of minorities in every province without reducing the majority in any province to a minority or even equality.

4.In the Central Legislature, Muslim representation shall not be less than one third.

5.Representation of communal groups shall continue to be by means of separate electorate as at present, provided it shall be open to any community at any time to abandon its separate electorate in favor of a joint electorate.

6.Any territorial distribution that might at any time be necessary shall not in any way affect the Muslim majority in the Punjab, Bengal and the North West Frontier Province.

7.Full religious liberty, i.e. liberty of belief, worship and observance, propaganda, association and education, shall be guaranteed to all communities.

8.No bill or any resolution or any part thereof shall be passed in any legislature or any other elected body if three-fourth of the members of any community in that particular body oppose such a bill resolution or part thereof on the ground that it would be injurious to the interests of that community or in the alternative, such other method is devised as may be found feasible and practicable to deal with such cases.

9.Sindh should be separated from the Bombay Presidency.

10.Reforms should be introduced in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) and Baluchistan on the same footing as in the other provinces.

11.Provision should be made in the constitution giving Muslims an adequate share, along with the other Indians, in all the services of the state and in local self-governing bodies having due regard to the requirements of efficiency.

12.The constitution should embody adequate safeguards for the protection of Muslim culture and for the protection and promotion of Muslim education, language, religion, personal laws and Muslim charitable institution and for their due share in the grants-in-aid given by the state and by local self-governing bodies.

13.No cabinet, either central or provincial, should be formed without there being a proportion of at least one-third Muslim ministers.

14.No change shall be made in the constitution by the Central Legislature except with the concurrence of the State's contribution of the Indian Federation.

 

[waraich66]

NO that was not possible thats why idea of a separate land was floated.

I believe that the primary reason for the separation was the economic one viz viz Muslims. Its just later that we now started realising that yes Faith of Muslims would have been compromised if we stayed togather in India.

We have to analyse disadvantages of speration realistically.

1. 160 Million muslims could not migrate now dont have equal rights.
2. All rivers are coming from india , so in future if india stop water by making dam , our economy will sufur.
3. Both countries could spend 60% of annual bugdet on public welfare projects, so all citizens could have health,clean water and free education.
4. India passed land reforms but still land reform not implemented in Pakistan.
5. India have uniform education system but still we dont have.
6.Shariah law still not implement ,we are still practing indian codes 302 ETC.


Can you give me any advantages of division.