When Hitler "refused" to defeat Britain

[SarthakGanguly]

After BEF evacuated safely, there was no realistic chance of capturing Britain as they had not only a strong navy but a very effective chain home defence utilizing the wonder eyes(radar).

No. Britain had only the Navy and its small but fearless RAF to protect itself. They even drafted old men into pathetic Home Guard units. They even leased out 50 pacific islands to the US for a handful of destroyers to help in anti sub warfare.

Today we know it was decisive. But it was not known on that day. It was just a mistake. Errors were made by all sides, and it is not necessary for one to be particularly decisive. That said, it was a failure of the German Luftwaffe and the army group command (plus Hitler). Individual units did try to break the perimeter at Dunkirk inspite of the halt order. But, without a joint effort, piecemeal attacks were bound to fail. And they did. Let's accept that for a change the French fought really hard and well.

Many commanders then felt that a 48 hour halt would be fine, especially since the infantry was fatally lagging behind the panzer spearheads - which is militarily sound. German intel failed here as well - they apparently overestimated the French strength in the south and underestimated the British capability in Dunkirk. Blaming Hitler alone was a convenient tactic of all post war German generals. It was much more complex than that in 1940.

 

[Desert Fox]

Agree with the rest of your points, but dive bombers are roughly modern day pgm's as the accuracy rate of stukas and val were more than 90 percent and ju88 wasn't necessary allied inorder to attack allied shipping. Take a look at the Pacific theater, how many ships were sunk there by dive bombers.

Yes, it is a fact that the Stukas were very accurate, however they had a major setback which was they were very slow and required either the element of surprise or complete air superiority over the opposing air force in order to carry out their deadly dive attacks on bunkers, tanks, supply columns, ships, etc...

So the problem with Stukas is that they were practically flying ducks without adequate fighter escorts, case in point the Battle of Britain where they were shot down in numbers due to their slow speed by both the RAF fighters and the ground based anti-aircraft guns who's crews were well aware of the approaching Stukas beforehand.

Many think that he had a soft corner for British. The point to which you replied means that by demonstrating his generosity, he thought that he could make a diplomatic impact, and make peace with the Brits but the evacuation was declared as a great victory by the allies(and it was a great victory).

Yes, he did have a soft corner for the British. While Hitler was sending out peace feelers to the British to end the war the British were begging Stalin to attack Hitler from the East, even if it meant that the entire European continent would fall to Stalin.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

The order was was first given by General Gerd von Rundstedt, commander of Army Group A, which was the large force fighting in western France. In turn, the pause was requested by von Rundstedt’s tank unit commander, who had lost 50% of his armored forces and needed time to regroup. This is when Goering stepped in.

Exactly. Post war, these generals penned their memoirs and put the sole blame on their CiC, or Hitler. But they all shared the responsibility.

Yes, it is a fact that the Stukas were very accurate, however they had a major setback which was they were very slow and required either the element of surprise or complete air superiority over the opposing air force in order to carry out their deadly dive attacks on bunkers, tanks, supply columns, ships, etc...

No sir. The Sturzkamfgeschwaders or Stukas were notoriously inaccurate. You had to nosedive and fix the trajectory to score a hit. It was highly risky and its biggest advantage was it siren fitted on top that made it's signature noise that put the fear of Death in the enemy. Plus, the aircrew was highly experienced around this time and so they remained very very effective.

 

[Desert Fox]

No sir. The Sturzkamfgeschwaders or Stukas were notoriously inaccurate.

Really? I was never aware. Do you have any legitimate source to back this claim?

As far as i know, Stukas were accurate and were used to great effect against French bunkers, heavy tanks, bridged, supply columns, etc.. The steep dive tactic for which the Stuka was designed for was a very accurate method to deliver the explosives on target.

Of course, depending upon the situation, if the pilot of the Stuka was not able to maintain the steep diving position due to lets say the weather or approaching enemy fighters, etc.. this would hamper the accuracy to great affect im sure.

Dive Bombing Tactics of Stukas in WW2

How more accurate were dive bombers compared to regular WW2 bombers? If they were so accurate, why wasn't the B-17 a dive bomber? - Quora

Conversations with a Stuka Pilot Paul-Werner Hozzel

 

[waz]

You had to nosedive and fix the trajectory to score a hit. It was highly risky and its biggest advantage was it siren fitted on top that made it's signature noise that put the fear of Death in the enemy. Plus, the aircrew was highly experienced around this time and so they remained very very effective.

I do like the Stuka's. Everyone has to admit that it became one of the most signature sounds of the Second World War.

 

[Desert Fox]

I do like the Stuka's. Everyone has to admit that it became one of the most signature sounds of the Second World War.

The Stuka's siren was very terrifying, but the aircraft itself was easily outclassed by Soviet and Allied ground attack planes. As early as 1939 the Soviets had ground attack aircraft superior to the Stuka's like the Su-2 which was faster and had rockets at its disposal.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I do like the Stuka's. Everyone has to admit that it became one of the most signature sounds of the Second World War.

Everybody likes it. Unless one is facing it's wrath.

 

[jhungary]

In a Military Strategic Level, it is impossible nor practical to eliminate the whole BEF in Dunkirk. FOr Germany, this is not necessary nor wanted to do so.

Aside from the official reason, which is to stop the armour to let the infantry catch up, there are a few consideration in the field that lead to that decision alone.

1.) It would not do much anyway if the attack continue. There are no way to stop the Brits from evacuating as long as the British Navy Present is greater than the Nazis, Hitler knew that and the only way you can stop the Brits and French from leaving is blockade them by sea. which is a power Hitler lack. the BEF might have lost a few thousand or ten thousand more of their troop, but you won't finish them in just 3 days.

2.) Being Blog down. If and had German Armoured continue the attack, they would have to fight all the way around Dunkirk but remember the objective is and always is Paris, They need to capture Paris first then invade England, Paris is always to goal, to let your spearhead peddle around in Dunkirk will give time for French to prepare Paris themselves. (Rundstedt warned Hitler had the attack continue they will need a bigger pause after Dunkirk).

3.) The underestimation of British Naval Recovery effort. The question beside the German ineptness to attack the Brits, they should also equally fall into how British ramped up the effort of evacuation. Royal Navy deserve some credit to pull a Dunkirk evacuation out of their arse, nobody, including the British themselves can foresee they can pull almost 350,000 troop out of French in just 10 days. Without a proper port and shipping (Such as large troop ship) they used beaches and bomb out port then destroyer and small ship to pull 350,000 troop in 10 days? You wouldn't believe it is possible yourselves.

4.) The American Threat. Which is one of the most Hitler fear of, American being involved before the conquest in England is completed, just like WW1, the addition of Men and Equipment from America push the war in favour of Allies. Had the BEF was totally destroyed back then, it will most probably drag the US into fighting the German Directly. Hitler have to put up a picture that Britain can hold their own so that the US will not get involved in this early of the stage, had the 400,000 strong BEF were destroyed, god knows what the American gonna do.

Couple to the facts that BEF left almost all their heavy equipment in and around Dunkirk themselves, It is highly suggestable that Hitler and high command write off British as potential threat. That is the direct outcome of the battle. Any commander would have halt at that point, giving what they know about the battle up to that point. Had the situation been reversed, it was the French Sieging the Germans, they would have done the same.

 

[Desert Fox]

4.) The American Threat. Which is one of the most Hitler fear of, American being involved before the conquest in England is completed, just like WW1, the addition of Men and Equipment from America push the war in favour of Allies. Had the BEF was totally destroyed back then, it will most probably drag the US into fighting the German Directly. Hitler have to put up a picture that Britain can hold their own so that the US will not get involved in this early of the stage, had the 400,000 strong BEF were destroyed, god knows what the American gonna do.

But wasn't the American public opinion strongly against joining any European war at that time? Even after Pearl Harbor, it took Hitler's declaration of war on America for America to directly get involved in the European theater. So what would have been the legitimate reason for justifying America's entry into war on behalf of Britain in the eyes of the American people?

 

[Psychic]

No sir. The Sturzkamfgeschwaders or Stukas were notoriously inaccurate. You had to nosedive and fix the trajectory to score a hit. It was highly risky and its biggest advantage was it siren fitted on top that made it's signature noise that put the fear of Death in the enemy. Plus, the aircrew was highly experienced around this time and so they remained very very effective.

No sir, you have grossly under estimated the accuracy of Ju-87's. Stukas were very accurate in fact more accurate than Japanese Val's. Stukas were used as aerial artillery of the Wehrmacht and to take out enemy strong points with surgical accuracy. Nose diving wasn't a problem as JU-87 was equipped with a dive brake...If you get your hands on a WW2 aircraft simulator, you can see for yourself their accuracy. The pre war training hit rate for IJN's Vals was more than 96 percent and stuka was nowhere less in capabilities than Val.

Military history, facts, tactics and more: Stuka-The aerial artillery of World War 2

Stukas could be used to a devastating effect against enemy shipping. On the Eastern front, Hans Urich Rudel had destroyed Soviet battleship Marat with a single 1100lb bomb ! Apart from several other destroyers and cruisers.

The Stuka's siren was very terrifying, but the aircraft itself was easily outclassed by Soviet and Allied ground attack planes. As early as 1939 the Soviets had ground attack aircraft superior to the Stuka's like the Su-2 which was faster and had rockets at its disposal.

Technically, a ground attack aircraft is of a different class. You can't compare a ground attack aircraft to a dive bomber BUT the Germans used stukas in ground attack role as well ( desperation on the Eastern front)

 

[Indian Patriot]

Luftwaffe could have easily, and I repeat EASILY, won the battle of britain. Many english and allied historians put the battle of britain as the ultimate show of english resilience and a truckload of such bull ..... The reality was different.

The Luftwaffe in early years of the war was led by able generals and the german pilots were second to none, it also helped that german engineering (till end of the war) was second to none. The Luftwaffe made planned raids on all english airbases. The bombers would bomb the living daylights out of english airbases and their fighters would ambush returning RAF fighters low on fuel and ammunition.

It was after the great losses suffered that the dastardly RAF decided to go for psychological warfare. RAF had one advantage and it was in long range heavy bombers. The 2 engine heinkel was not a match for 4 engine RAF bombers. Berlin and other civilian cities were repeatedly targeted by the RAF. This infuriated Hitler who then ordered revenge strikes and that was the blunder committed by that buffoon.

The RAF had radar and could predict german air strikes on civilian targets. If Luftwaffe had stuck to attacking RAF bases then even at the cost of significant losses the radars could have been busted and RAF neutralised. But Hitler was a special category of idiot. Not only did he jeopardise the battle of britain but he abandoned it after a minor failure and invaded USSR.

If hitler had just pulled back, took ab reather and attacked england again with a proper plan england would have been crushed.

P.S. - The Ju87 was the BEST dive bomber of WW2.

Britain was only concerned about one thing: "The Balance of power" in Europe.

nobody called those thieving robbers as good guys. In real world, unfortunately the good guy does not always win the fight.

the Germans used stukas in ground attack role as well ( desperation on the Eastern front)

In the later stages of the war the germans fixed 40 mm cannon underneath the wings, one cannon per wing, for tank sniping.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

No sir, you have grossly under estimated the accuracy of Ju-87's. Stukas were very accurate in fact more accurate than Japanese Val's. Stukas were used as aerial artillery of the Wehrmacht and to take out enemy strong points with surgical accuracy. Nose diving wasn't a problem as JU-87 was equipped with a dive brake...If you get your hands on a WW2 aircraft simulator, you can see for yourself their accuracy. The pre war training hit rate for IJN's Vals was more than 96 percent and stuka was nowhere less in capabilities than Val.

Military history, facts, tactics and more: Stuka-The aerial artillery of World War 2

Stukas could be used to a devastating effect against enemy shipping. On the Eastern front, Hans Urich Rudel had destroyed Soviet battleship Marat with a single 1100lb bomb ! Apart from several other destroyers and cruisers.


Technically, a ground attack aircraft is of a different class. You can't compare a ground attack aircraft to a dive bomber BUT the Germans used stukas in ground attack role as well ( desperation on the Eastern front)

Yes JU 87 was comparable to the Val, but when compared to the later ground attack aircraft, they were nothing. It was for this reason the FW Ground attack crafts were used from 1943 onwards. The Stuka Geschwaders went into a decline from 43 onwards, except the Immelman gruppe of the likes of Rudel. But they used 37 mm anti tank cannons instead of bombs.

 

[Indian Patriot]

I do like the Stuka's. Everyone has to admit that it became one of the most signature sounds of the Second World War.

Search for the sound of katyushas, it was the most terrifying sound of WW2.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

If hitler had just pulled back, took ab reather and attacked england again with a proper plan england would have been crushed.

Invasion of England proper would have been impossible for the German armed forces, simply because their landing craft would never have got to the English coast in sufficient numbers. They would be shot to pieces with the formidable British Navy, even at the cost of heavy losses to themselves. The only chance Hitler had against Britain was a sharp rapid surprise attack that would take a few ports/and/or airports for a fast delivery of soldiers into the Britisches heartland. Else, it was always bound to fail.

Search for the sound of katyushas, it was the most terrifying sound of WW2.

Them 32 rockets with 16 each per barrage - devils.

 

[Psychic]

Yes JU 87 was comparable to the Val, but when compared to the later ground attack aircraft, they were nothing. It was for this reason the FW Ground attack crafts were used from 1943 onwards. The Stuka Geschwaders went into a decline for 43 onwards, except the Immelman gruppe of the likes of Rudel. But they used 37 mm anti tank cannons instead of bombs.

There is a difference in ground attack or close air support and precision bombing.
Both are DIFFERENT and require DIFFERENT aircraft, weapons and tactics. A 1100lb bomb delivered via stuka dive bomber is meant to be used against strong points, bunkers, fortifications, buildings, command and control centres, ships, aircraft carriers, factories, bridges and ammo dumps WHILE a ground attack aircraft like IL-2 sturmovik equiped with rockets is best used against armour or convoys and against ground troops.

In the later stages of the war the germans fixed 40 mm cannon underneath the wings, one cannon per wing, for tank sniping.

BK-37 37mm guns....
Ace Hans Urich Rudel blew up more than 500 tanks with those...Stalin had put a huge bounty on him.