What's Wrong with Pakistan? --BY ROBERT D. KAPLAN

[Joe Shearer]

Please also see a thread : Ideology Media & Militancy on this forum

Also "Sparta" analogy is deeply flawed when applied to Pakistan -- Sparta was only a problem to Athens and vice versa because of the competition between a established and plateauing power (Sparta) and a rising power (Athens)

Perhaps I intended it in that very sense :-D

Deeply flawed? Perhaps, perhaps not. As @FaujHistorian is inordinately fond of saying, that might be an automatic Indian point of view. And then again, if he were to remove his blinkers, it might not.

A little lack of robust self-confidence, the occasional tendril of doubt would be so refreshing to see. I suppose, in posts to come, that last statement will arrive in a pie-dish at my own face.

 

[Joe Shearer]

obviously as an Indian you will blame the other side.

Obviously.

As obvious as the self-evident fact that no Indian can ever be objective about these issues, or can be thought to transcend his national identity. Benda must be chuckling in his grave.

However Mr. Kaplan says and I quote:

I take it that this is written with full understanding of the phrase khatm-e-nabuwat? You will forgive a mere Indian's use of this phrase, and any possible errors in orthography that might have flawed its use.

Kaplan is at best a flawed guide to this issue, not a prophet.

Americans on their way out in coming years, India will attempt to fill the void partially by building infrastructure projects and providing support to the Afghan security services. This will mark the beginning of the real battle between the Indus state and the Gangetic state for domination of southern Central Asia.


This is a classic chess game between Indus valley state (civilization) and Ganga valley state (civilization).


While IVS seeks strategic depth in Afghanistan,

the GVS seeks strategic encirclement of IVS via Afghanistan.

And Afghanistanis as usual are seeking Afghanistan in the whole fiasco.


it smacks of ignorance when Indian posters (from GVS) come on this board and blame only the other side aka IVS.


peace

Astonishing.

A true discovery.

Clearly, no Indian would have the breadth of understanding or knowledge to imagine the entire matter in these sweeping strategic terms. Clearly so, almost definitively so.

There is no sensible alternative, then, to sinking back into a submissive posture. As usual, our collective intellect has been tried in the balance and found wanting. Will we ever learn?

 

[muse]

You are kind, I read your critique, I found it "rushed" - I hope you will allow more time and a couple of more reads to allow the ideas presented to settle - invective cannot suffice for analysis, everything must be and is open to challenge, It must be recalled that Kaplan does not make any claim to presenting ALL of the histories of Pakistan or the area that is now Pakistan, the article is developed from his book, The Revenge of Geography (that is to say the lens are how geography has shaped countries and civilizations) and it is always unsettling to encounter ideas that are not what we once thought they were, they have the quality of challenge and none of us take that as intended, and perhaps that is best.

Pakistan is a lot of things, including a hellhole and the poster child for terrible governance by the most ignorant of duffers, this is UNDENIABLE - for those of us who wish to develop a larger picture, a deeper understanding, challenge and refining of our understanding and therefore ever greater unease over our ignorance, is a constant.

 

[Hyperion]

It's amazing how much these "think tanks" debate every little thing. (minus you of course)

My viewpoint (summary):....... whatever..........
My viewpoint (detailed):........ ROBERT D. KAPLAN: Sanno kee piraa jeeee? Putt lo jo tussi putna haiga...... India karr hee na levay jo tussi chanday o... salay dimwit goray....

 

[Joe Shearer]

Please also see a thread : Ideology Media & Militancy on this forum

Also "Sparta" analogy is deeply flawed when applied to Pakistan -- Sparta was only a problem to Athens and vice versa because of the competition between a established and plateauing power (Sparta) and a rising power (Athens)

See what many of our Indian friends are missing is the point Kaplan makes about what the area that is today Pakistan and what it's identity affiliation is AND how Eastern and Southern areas of what is now Afghanistan, a traditional part of that cultural and economic continuum -- That is the point in ending that the past may be the future - @Joe Shearer -- Please also see my last post on the "Sun on Shoulders, Wind in Hair" thread on the China defense board

I certainly shall do so, after a short break of a few hours. Thank you for the leads.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You are kind, I read your critique, I found it "rushed" - I hope you will allow more time and a couple of more reads to allow the ideas presented to settle - invective cannot suffice for analysis, everything must be and is open to challenge, It must be recalled that Kaplan does not make any claim to presenting ALL of the histories of Pakistan or the area that is now Pakistan, the article is developed from his book, The Revenge of Geography (that is to say the lens are how geography has shaped countries and civilizations) and it is always unsettling to encounter ideas that are not what we once thought they were, they have the quality of challenge and none of us take that as intended, and perhaps that is best.

Pakistan is a lot of things, including a hellhole and the poster child for terrible governance by the most ignorant of duffers, this is UNDENIABLE - for those of us who wish to develop a larger picture, a deeper understanding, challenge and refining of our understanding and therefore ever greater unease over our ignorance, is a constant.

You are accurate, it was rushed, and written in a mischievous provocative vein. I do not apologise for that minor lapse, which was due to being aroused by a clever young chap who needs to shut up and think things through just a little bit more, but I do wish to acknowledge that Kaplan has made certain valid points, just as certain others that he has made seem to be hand-selected to suit a case being built (naturally, I have never, ever, in the spirit of HMS Pinafore, been sick at sea).

It is difficult not to approach these essays with considerable suspicion, as they seem to possess a certain orientation towards illuminating possible future lines of US policy. Dalrymple has just written one, and his abject surrender to American academic prestige and influence, to be charitable and euphemistic, is galling.

I am troubled at your ending paragraph, and feel chastened, perhaps even mortified. Is it so difficult to sense that I approach the questions affecting Pakistan with goodwill, not just for individual Pakistanis, whom I have grown to respect and admire, but even for this perfectly viable state which keeps ignoring traffic signs and taking the wrong turns? And, from that, it is troubling to think that one presents an image of a being confident in his own perfect understanding, refusing to accept the need for the constant questioning of what one seems to understand, and unfamiliar with unease over one's ignorance. That is certainly not the case. Otherwise I would not spend several hours each day re-educating myself on matters historical (on other matters, I am blithely ignorant and happy to remain so, if correcting it were to dilute my focus on history).

 

[muse]

I am troubled at your ending paragraph, and feel chastened, perhaps even mortified. Is it so difficult to sense that I approach the questions affecting Pakistan with goodwill, not just for individual Pakistanis, whom I have grown to respect and admire, but even for this perfectly viable state which keeps ignoring traffic signs and taking the wrong turns?

Consider my consternation when presented with the idea that established and plateauing state represented Pakistan and India, Athens, that challenge made me aware of an equation I had not even considered - in this bath house we are all naked

 

[Joe Shearer]

It's amazing how much these "think tanks" debate every little thing. (minus you of course)

My viewpoint (summary):....... whatever..........
My viewpoint (detailed):........ ROBERT D. KAPLAN: Sanno kee piraa jeeee? Putt lo jo tussi putna haiga...... India karr hee na levay jo tussi chanday o... salay dimwit goray....

ROTFLSHTIFTC

A necessary corrective. Tastes like cod liver oil, though.

 

[shuntmaster]

I found this part of the article very interesting.

The Umayyad Arabs conquered and Islamicized Sindh in the early eighth century. Then came the Turkic Ghaznavids (based out of Ghazni, in eastern Afghanistan), who conquered parts of northern India in the 11th century. The Ghaznavids were followed by the Delhi Sultanate, a military oligarchy between the early 13th and early 16th centuries, which preceded the splendorous rule of the Persianized Mughal dynasty on the subcontinent. All these Muslim warriors governed immense inkblots of territory that were extensions of the Arab-Persian world that lay to the west, even as they interacted and traded with China to the north and east. It was a land without fixed borders that, according to University of Wisconsin historian André Wink, represented a rich confection of Arab, Persian, and Turkic culture, bustling with trade routes to Muslim Central Asia.

What's Wrong with Pakistan? - By Robert D. Kaplan | Foreign Policy

This throws out of window the claim that Muslim ruled India for 1000yrs. This may be true for parts of present day Pakistan, especially Sindh, but absolutely false for rest of the Indian subcontinent. The Delhi Sultanates, Tuglaqs, Lodhis etc. ruled only patches of Northern India, even then their power extended only upto the urban areas. Only the Mughals ruled most of present day India, but their rule was only for less than 200Yrs. The place where I come from i.e. South coastal Karnataka, was under Muslim rule for a very brief period during Tipu Sultans time in late 18th century, even though there was a significant Muslim population in the area since 8th century (Arab traders settling in Konkan and Malabar coast).

 

[FaujHistorian]

I found this part of the article very interesting.



This throws out of window the claim that Muslim ruled India for 1000yrs. This may be true for parts of present day Pakistan, especially Sindh, but absolutely false for rest of the Indian subcontinent. ).

Where did you go to school man?

Where?

Just the city or state will be fine. I am not trying to zero in on your location or anything.


The reason I am asking is simple.

every Tom, Shunker, and Abdullah knows about it.

where were you all this time?

Where?

 

[shuntmaster]

Where did you go to school man?

Where?

Just the city or state will be fine. I am not trying to zero in on your location or anything.


The reason I am asking is simple.

every Tom, Shunker, and Abdullah knows about it.

where were you all this time?

Where?

I cannot comprehend what you are asking. Is it the name of my city? What for?
What is known to "every Tom, Shunker, and Abdullah"?

 

[acid rain]

I cannot comprehend what you are asking. Is it the name of my city? What for?
What is known to "every Tom, Shunker, and Abdullah"?

What he is saying is its a known fact, so no need to point it out.

 

[illusion8]

Just like hardworking South Indians "gel" with BIMARU states

So what's wrong with them now?

 

[shuntmaster]

What he is saying is its a known fact, so no need to point it out.

You mean the 'Muslim ruled India for 1000yrs' fiction is a known fact? Isn't that what I'm disproving?

 

[illusion8]

While IVS seeks strategic depth in Afghanistan,

the GVS seeks strategic encirclement of IVS via Afghanistan.

And Afghanistanis as usual are seeking Afghanistan in the whole fiasco.


it smacks of ignorance when Indian posters (from GVS) come on this board and blame only the other side aka IVS.


peace

I would look at it more as the GVC trying to establish the trade route that existed for millenia between the GVC and the central asian region via the IVC - which presently is hampered by the entity called Pakistan that obstructs this traditional trade route. Not an encirclement but an attempt at getting around the barrier that is Pakistan.

Hence we see an attempt at putting up an alternate trade route to this region via Iran.

It would be much more peaceful and trouble free if Pakistan extends a route for India to Central Asia as they are attempting to do for China.