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What's Wrong with Pakistan? --BY ROBERT D. KAPLAN

Are you sure you were not on the side of commies during cold war?

Many Indians were.

Just checking.

Good Lord; No! Never.
You seem to be very confused. On what basis you jump to that conclusion; only you 'may' be able to explain. India as a governmental system flirted with Socialism; but Communism was simply unsustainable as a philosophy. Who can resist the "evil blandishments" of Capitalism. Capitalism that allows green-bits of paper to enter grubby hands then pockets. And create goodies like McDonalds and Baskin-Robbins to touch our palates. Or allow humans to wear designer labels instead of dull drab-grey production-line "Mao Suits".
Even your "deeper than.....and higher than....." friends have discovered the forbidden delights of all that ;)

Now tell me: were you born in McCarthy's time? or that your thinking has simply remained in that "time-warp"?
 
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There is simply no need to justify the existence of India.

This is what Palestinians say that Palestine was around 1000s of years.

Egyptians would say the same.

The problem with the argument is that you got to look at the documents in hand.

India was formed, created, got born on August 15, 1947.

a full day later than

Pakistan.

This reality thus creates a dichotomy in a typical Indian mind.

On one hand he has to emphasize on 5000 years of existence

and then it has to reconcile with the exact date of August 15th, 1947.

And the only thing that destroys this perfect picture is one darned country named Pakistan.


So the poor Indian mind has to go from post to pillar and find any article that has a nice heading "What's f^ing wrong with Pakistan".

Not only that an Indian has to post it.

Many other Indians have to jump in, dhotis flying, and start shoveling $hit against Pakistan.

Hope you understand it now.
 
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This is what Palestinians say that Palestine was around 1000s of years.

Egyptians would say the same.

The problem with the argument is that you got to look at the documents in hand.

India was formed, created, got born on August 15, 1947.

a full day later than

Pakistan.

This reality thus creates a dichotomy in a typical Indian mind.

On one hand he has to emphasize on 5000 years of existence

and then it has to reconcile with the exact date of August 15th, 1947.

And the only thing that destroys this perfect picture is one darned country named Pakistan.


So the poor Indian mind has to go from post to pillar and find any article that has a nice heading "What's f^ing wrong with Pakistan".

Not only that an Indian has to post it.

Many other Indians have to jump in, dhotis flying, and start shoveling $hit against Pakistan.

Hope you understand it now.

LOL; you're still on your Literature aka "picturesque language" trip.
I commend your persistence.
 
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Oh dear dear dear poster.


One of the major issue with so many Indian posters on this thread is that they fail to perform critical analysis of OP.

Every Indian is just being a blind madrassah student as long as a gora writes down some anti-Pakistan drivel.


peace

You are more keen to go after posters based on their flags rather than engage in any meaningful discussion.
 
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If any neighbour feels they know it better than us then by all means pm me I will pay for your air fare and put up an show you the reality of what is on the ground is far removed from what you read in articles written by an Ivy League schooled academic. If anyone wants to take the offer P.M me.

Regards,
 
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Perversity characterizes Pakistan. Only the worst African hellholes, Afghanistan, Haiti, Yemen, and Iraq rank higher on this year's Failed States Index. The country is run by a military obsessed with -- and, for decades, invested in -- the conflict with India, and by a civilian elite that steals all it can and pays almost no taxes. But despite an overbearing military, tribes "defined by a near-universal male participation in organized violence," as the late European anthropologist Ernest Gellner put it, dominate massive swaths of territory. The absence of the state makes for 20-hour daily electricity blackouts and an almost nonexistent education system in many areas.


The root cause of these manifold failures, in many minds, is the very artificiality of Pakistan itself: a cartographic puzzle piece sandwiched between India and Central Asia that splits apart what the British Empire ruled as one indivisible subcontinent. Pakistan claims to represent the Indian subcontinent's Muslims, but more Muslims live in India and Bangladesh put together than in Pakistan. In the absence of any geographical reason for its existence, Pakistan, so the assumption goes, can fall back only on Islamic extremism as an organizing principle of the state.

But this core assumption about what ails Pakistan is false. Pakistan, which presents more nightmare scenarios for American policymakers than perhaps any other country, does have geographical logic. The vision of Pakistan's founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, in the 1940s did not constitute a mere power grab at the expense of India's Hindu-dominated Congress party. There was much history and geography behind his drive to create a separate Muslim state anchored in the subcontinent's northwest, abutting southern Central Asia. Understanding this legacy properly leads to a very troubling scenario about where Pakistan -- and by extension, Afghanistan and India -- may now be headed. Pakistan's present and future, for better or worse, are still best understood through its geography.
Related
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THE MUSLIM EXPERIENCE in South Asia begins with the concept of al-Hind, the Arabic word for India. Al-Hind invokes the vast tracts of the northern and northwestern parts of the Indian subcontinent that came under mainly Turko-Islamic rule in the Middle Ages and were protected from the horse-borne Mongols by lack of sufficient pastureland. The process of Muslim conquest began in Sindh, the desert tract south and east of Iran and Afghanistan, adjacent to the Arabian Sea, easily accessible to the Middle East by land and maritime routes.

The Umayyad Arabs conquered and Islamicized Sindh in the early eighth century. Then came the Turkic Ghaznavids (based out of Ghazni, in eastern Afghanistan), who conquered parts of northern India in the 11th century. The Ghaznavids were followed by the Delhi Sultanate, a military oligarchy between the early 13th and early 16th centuries, which preceded the splendorous rule of the Persianized Mughal dynasty on the subcontinent. All these Muslim warriors governed immense inkblots of territory that were extensions of the Arab-Persian world that lay to the west, even as they interacted and traded with China to the north and east. It was a land without fixed borders that, according to University of Wisconsin historian André Wink, represented a rich confection of Arab, Persian, and Turkic culture, bustling with trade routes to Muslim Central Asia.

To the extent that one area was the ganglion of this Muslim civilization, it was today's Pakistan. Fertile Punjab, which straddles the Pakistan-India frontier, "linked the Mughal empire, through commercial, cultural and ethnic intercourse, with Persia and Central Asia," writes University of Chicago historian Muzaffar Alam. This area of Pakistan has been for centuries the civilizational intermediary connecting the cool and sparsely populated tableland of Central Asia with the hot and teeming panel of cultivation in the Indian subcontinent. Pakistan's many mountain passes, especially those of Khyber and Bolan, join Kabul and Kandahar in Afghanistan with the wheat- and rice-baskets thousands of feet below. The descent from Afghanistan to the Indus River, which runs lengthwise through the middle of Pakistan, is exceedingly gradual, so for millennia various cultures occupied both the high plateaus and the lowland riverine plains. This entire middle region -- not quite the subcontinent, not quite Central Asia -- was more than a frontier zone or a bold line on a map: It was a fluid cultural organism and the center of many civilizations in their own right.

What we know as modern-day Pakistan is far from an artificial entity; it is just the latest of the many spatial arrangements for states on the subcontinent. The map of the Harappan civilization, a complex network of centrally controlled chieftaincies in the late fourth to mid-second millennium B.C., was one of its earliest predecessors. The Harappan world stretched from Baluchistan northeast up to Kashmir and southeast down almost to both Delhi and Mumbai, nearly touching present-day Iran and Afghanistan and extending into both northwestern and western India. It was a complex geography of settlement that adhered to landscapes capable of supporting irrigation, and whose heartland was today's Pakistan.

The Mauryan Empire, which existed from the fourth to the second centuries B.C., came to envelop much of the subcontinent and thus, for the first time in history, encouraged the idea of India as a political entity. But whereas the area of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and northern India all fell under Mauryan rule, India's deep south did not. Next came the Kushan Empire, whose Indo-European rulers conquered territory from the Ferghana Valley, in the demographic heart of Central Asia, to Bihar in northeastern India. Once again, the heart of the empire that linked Central Asia and India was in Pakistan; one of the Kushan capitals was Peshawar, Pakistan's frontier city today.

India is the counterfactual to Pakistan's dilemma. India's individual states are linguistically based and thus have confident identities: Kannada-speaking Karnataka, Marathi-speaking Maharashtra, Telugu-speaking Andhra Pradesh, Bengali-speaking West Bengal, Hindi-speaking Uttar Pradesh, and so forth. This might, in some scenarios, lead to local nationalism and irredentist movements, as is the case with Pakistan. Because central authority in New Delhi is restricted, however, diversity is celebrated and has become, in turn, a healthy basis for a pan-Indian national identity.

At the same time, as Pakistan is primarily interested in southern and eastern Afghanistan, the part of Afghanistan north of the Hindu Kush mountains may, if current trends continue, become more peaceful and drift into the economic orbit of the former Soviet Central Asian republics, especially given that Uzbeks and Tajiks live astride northern Afghanistan's border with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. This new formation would closely approximate the borders of ancient Bactria, with which Alexander the Great was so familiar.

Indeed, the past may hold the key to the future of al-Hind.


It's a four page article can be read here :

What's Wrong with Pakistan? - By Robert D. Kaplan | Foreign Policy

@Cherokee;
There are intersesting but provacative parts in this piece by Kaplan. Regardless of what position one may take on the validity of his views.

Nonetheless; one part (at the end) stands out. seemingly as a prognosis (if one may use that expression) of the future.
He says:
"At the same time, as Pakistan is primarily interested in southern and eastern Afghanistan, the part of Afghanistan north of the Hindu Kush mountains may, if current trends continue, become more peaceful and drift into the economic orbit of the former Soviet Central Asian republics, especially given that Uzbeks and Tajiks live astride northern Afghanistan's border with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. This new formation would closely approximate the borders of ancient Bactria, with which Alexander the Great was so familiar."

That is a likelyhood given the presently fissiparous trends in Afghanistan to start with and disagreements about Afghanistan outside that country. It is a POV that has been put forth by many commentators about afghanistan. And had something to do with the basis of Robert Blackwil's "Plan B" in the Afghan context. Other countries too seem to have factored that in into their thought-processes. Hence the flurry of meetings on Afghanistan by Russia, China among others wrt Afghanistan. China is investing big in Afhanistan; with even more planned. So it will like to cover its bases, just as Russia is very keen to secure one flank. The irony is that all present moves do not involve Iran in any way; though Iran is crucial to stabilising Afghanistan! Afghanistan is likely to face 'balkanisation'; with the boil-over spilling around.
How that will impact the neighborhood remains to be seen.
 
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If any neighbour feels they know it better than us then by all means pm me I will pay for your air fare and put up an show you the reality of what is on the ground is far removed from what you read in articles written by an Ivy League schooled academic. If anyone wants to take the offer P.M me.

Regards,

No Neighbor necessarily knows more than you or less than you. Proximity is not necessarily an adjunct to knowledge. Persistent, objective, study is likely to matter more on this score. And I'm not even sure that Robert Kaplan went to any Ivy League school. But he did attend U.S. Army’s Command and General Staff College; which is not counted in the Ivy League.
 
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No Neighbor necessarily knows more than you or less than you. Proximity is not necessarily an adjunct to knowledge. Persistent, objective, study is likely to matter more on this score. And I'm not even sure that Robert Kaplan went to any Ivy League school. But he did attend U.S. Army’s Command and General Staff College; which is not counted in the Ivy League.


Ignorance is no excuse.

perhaps it would have been better to question everything Mr. Kaplan wrote.

Who knows all of us would help each other with more info, and thus reducing the level of ignorance that may exist on either side of the border.


peace
 
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This is what Palestinians say that Palestine was around 1000s of years.

Egyptians would say the same.

The problem with the argument is that you got to look at the documents in hand.

India was formed, created, got born on August 15, 1947.

a full day later than

Pakistan.

This reality thus creates a dichotomy in a typical Indian mind.

On one hand he has to emphasize on 5000 years of existence

and then it has to reconcile with the exact date of August 15th, 1947.

And the only thing that destroys this perfect picture is one darned country named Pakistan.


So the poor Indian mind has to go from post to pillar and find any article that has a nice heading "What's f^ing wrong with Pakistan".

Not only that an Indian has to post it.

Many other Indians have to jump in, dhotis flying, and start shoveling $hit against Pakistan.

Hope you understand it now.

Please believe me that most Indians, atleast myself and ones I know of, have no dichotomy about India at all.We fully well know who we are and where we came from.There is no identity crisis among us.Do not presume to think that we suffer from same problems as you .And as for Pakistan, only problem I have with you is your support of terrorists, something which has brought great shame and embarrassment to your country globally.
 
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Please believe me that most Indians, atleast myself and ones I know of, have no dichotomy about India at all.We fully well know who we are and where we came from.There is no identity crisis among us.Do not presume to think that we suffer from same problems as you ..

I wish it was true.

.And as for Pakistan, only problem I have with you is your support of terrorists, .

Can you tell how old is this "problem" of yours. did it start in 47, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, or more recent as 2000s?

Just curious
 
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I wish it was true.



Can you tell how old is this "problem" of yours. did it start in 47, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, or more recent as 2000s?

Just curious

So you are not even going to deny your govt. uses terrorists as a means of state policy ?
Considering there is more than ample proof, its probably of no use anyways.
And what of the supposed dichotomy of India ? Are you going off to a tangent now that your bluff is called?
Do you know who your ancestors were ?And you accuse Indians of being confused ? The irony!

Coming back to your question, well I am no historian, all I know is terrorism was rampant in Kashmir in 90s and is continuing ever since to varying degrees.
 
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So you are not even going to deny your govt. uses terrorists as a means of state policy ?
Considering there is more than ample proof, its probably of no use anyways.
And what of the supposed dichotomy of India ? Are you gong off to a tangent now that your bluff is called?
Do you know who your ancestors were ?And you accuse Indians of being confused ? The irony!

Coming back to your question, well I am no historian, all I can know is terrorism was rampant in Kashmir in 90s and is continuing ever since to varying degrees.

You forget the ISI training and arming of Khalistanis in the 80's, or the Pakistani support to the NE seperatists in the 60's and 70's.

The real form of using their home grown terrorists in India started after ISI tasted success of training Jihadis in Afghanistan against the Soviets.
 
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I wish it was true.



Can you tell how old is this "problem" of yours. did it start in 47, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, or more recent as 2000s?

Just curious
It is true. No Indian worries about India as a country. All of us know that india as a cultural entity has been present from thousands of years.
After a period of colonization first by mughals and then by British it has been united in 1947.

No one wants Pakistan in India. ..and Pakistan as an entity does not threaten india culturally. We know what we are..we don't define us using Pakistan.

Pakistan defines itself as being NOT India. Indians are secure. .that is why you don't see threads with indians asking what india stands for or what indias founding fathers wanted for India. ..we don't do that because indias founding fathers were thousands of years ago.

Think about these facts.
 
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...

Coming back to your question, well I am no historian, all I can know is terrorism was rampant in Kashmir in 90s and is continuing ever since to varying degrees.

Thank you.

So 90s. Correct?

OK now go watch the movie Gandhi. Even though it is not an authentic documentary, you will see the reference to Pakistan and how it is linked to the term "terrorism". And the movie was written in late 70s and completed in 1982.

The script of the movie was approved by Indian government.

And thus

there was an intellectual effort to link Pakistan and terrorism in the mind of the viewers.


Indian Hindus have been accusing Muslims of subcontinent for terrorism for a long long time.

Even though the Muslims and Hindus both had done pretty similar bad things, and Hindus being majority have done more.



So next time when you accuse Pakistan of terrorism, just remember that it is not something new.

It is now in the genetic makeup of Indian Hindus to consider a subcontinent Muslim in general and a Pakistani in particular a terrorist until proven innocent.


This is the mindset, that drives every statement from an Indian from top level to the lowly PDF poster to repeat the same thing over and over andover and over.

Off course Pakistanis do not help their cause when sad incidents like attack on Parliament or Mumbai happen.


It is almost like how whites think of Black Americans.

Sure Blacks commit petty crime, their education rates are low, and jails are filled with Blacks even though blacks are only 11-15% of American population.


Surely blacks should and could do a lot to improve their image in the eyes of superior whites.


But then we cannot ignore the rampant racism against blacks either.


Precisely the same way, Indian racism is the mirror image of Pakistani terrorism.

they both go hand in hand.

and have done so for centuries (and not 90s as you suggest).


peace


ps. Hope one day we can break this cycle of hate and prejudice.



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Do you know who your ancestors were ?
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Another racist statement. I know you even don't realize what you just said. I know you are a good man deep down. But unfortunately society has programmed all these stereotypes.

....
And you accuse Indians of being confused ?
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Never questioned "ancestry" of indian posters. Sorry if you thought so.


I was merely pointing out the fact that modern day India is just young country born on August 15th, 1947.

That's all.

No offense was intended.
 
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This is what Palestinians say that Palestine was around 1000s of years.

Egyptians would say the same.

The problem with the argument is that you got to look at the documents in hand.

India was formed, created, got born on August 15, 1947.

a full day later than

Pakistan.

This reality thus creates a dichotomy in a typical Indian mind.

On one hand he has to emphasize on 5000 years of existence

and then it has to reconcile with the exact date of August 15th, 1947.

And the only thing that destroys this perfect picture is one darned country named Pakistan.


So the poor Indian mind has to go from post to pillar and find any article that has a nice heading "What's f^ing wrong with Pakistan".

Not only that an Indian has to post it.

Many other Indians have to jump in, dhotis flying, and start shoveling $hit against Pakistan.

Hope you understand it now.

India as a civilisation , culture has existed for 5000 years . Your country was a part of that . As a nation state India has been around for 65 years . All Indians understand this. Indians are not the ones who are confused about their history or identity.

We don't claim Arab , Turkish , Afghan or Persian ancestry and then claim Raja Porus as an ancestor .

What does this have to do with the thread anyway ?
 
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