Whats Wrong with ISPR Press release emphasizing "BETTER GOVERNANCE" from Political Leadership

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yessir. That is exactly why I said above that the Army simply cannot afford to let any effective challenge to its hold on power to arise. That is the basic dilemma here.

That excerpt you stripped out of my post to 'agree with' means nothing without the rest of my argument (below):

We have a complex multi-party parliamentary system of government. Part of the evolution of the democratic process is the evolution of the electorate and the rise of new political leadership, both within established parties and new ones. By refusing to criticize the failures of elected representatives, we do a disservice to the electorate by implicitly hiding the flaws and failures of the representatives they will elect. How is the electorate to judge their representatives in every election cycle if there is not media and public discourse over the failures and successes of those they elected?

By refusing to criticize elected representatives where we perceive them as having failed, we remove pressure that would drive them to change and/or for alternate leadership to rise up. The refusal to criticize and highlight failures of elected representatives will only slow the process of democratic change, and will end up sowing seeds of discontent that will in fact create the very conditions that you are trying to avoid with this flawed approach.

 

[VCheng]

That excerpt you stripped out of my post to 'agree with' means nothing without the rest of my argument (below):

We have a complex multi-party parliamentary system of government. Part of the evolution of the democratic process is the evolution of the electorate and the rise of new political leadership, both within established parties and new ones. By refusing to criticize the failures of elected representatives, we do a disservice to the electorate by implicitly hiding the flaws and failures of the representatives they will elect. How is the electorate to judge their representatives in every election cycle if there is not media and public discourse over the failures and successes of those they elected?

By refusing to criticize elected representatives where we perceive them as having failed, we remove pressure that would drive them to change and/or for alternate leadership to rise up. The refusal to criticize and highlight failures of elected representatives will only slow the process of democratic change, and will end up sowing seeds of discontent that will in fact create the very conditions that you are trying to avoid with this flawed approach.

The rest of your argument has weight only if applied to the Army that holds the real power and to the government that is the legal authority equally. Do you really want to apply the same standards to them also? If you can, then you may have some merit.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Today's newspaper. Now its worth noting that civilians are not "court-martial"ed. While Paper was quick to point at the civilian agency involved i.e. Police, it didn't dare to share the details of "Hassas Idara"s name.

The involvement of several police officials doesn't mean every police official in Karachi or Sindh is complicit, just like the alleged involvement of an individual from a 'Hasas Idara' doesn't mean anything other than the fact that this individual working for the 'Hasas Idara' was corrupt.

The rest of your argument has weight only if applied to the Army that holds the real power and to the government that is the legal authority equally. Do you really want to apply the same standards to them also? If you can, then you may have some merit.

Absolutely - are you choosing to deliberately ignore my point about criticism of elected representatives going hand in hand with criticism of any potentially unconstitutional acts by the military?

 

[Zaneesh852]

The involvement of several police officials doesn't mean every police official in Karachi or Sindh is complicit, just like the alleged involvement of an individual from a 'Hasas Idara' doesn't mean anything other than the fact that this individual working for the 'Hasas Idara' was corrupt.

This is not the first time,the "Hassas Idaray" have been doing it frequently. (Though only getting caught rarely)
Pakistan Navy launches probe

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is not the first time,the "Hassas Idaray" have been doing it frequently. (Though only getting caught rarely)
Pakistan Navy launches probe

Yes, the Navy especially appears to be suffering from significant issues - extremist infiltration and criminal activities.

 

[Zaneesh852]

Yes, the Navy especially appears to be suffering from significant issues - extremist infiltration and criminal activities.

Its lack of oversight, If ISPR can issue a tweet correcting the PM then why PM has to inform the chief of the agency to take action rather than issuing directives of arrest of the culprits?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its lack of oversight, If ISPR can issue a tweet correcting the PM then why PM has to inform the chief of the agency to take action rather than issuing directives of arrest of the culprits?

Because the most recent comment by ISPR was made in the aftermath of an NAP review attended by the military an political leadership. It appears the review did not go very well, hence the ISPR statement.

In the second case, local police made an arrest and the PM issued a statement. Was the Naval Chief informed of the arrest and was planning to take action? Was the Naval Chief informed and not planning to take action? We don't have enough information to interpret much from the PM's direction to the Naval Chief to take action.

With respect to oversight - the military does not track the lives and movements of every member - there is simply no way to come up with the resources to do so.

 

[Zaneesh852]

Because the most recent comment by ISPR was made in the aftermath of an NAP review attended by the military an political leadership. It appears the review did not go very well, hence the ISPR statement.

In the second case, local police made an arrest and the PM issued a statement. Was the Naval Chief informed of the arrest and was planning to take action? Was the Naval Chief informed and not planning to take action? We don't have enough information to interpret much from the PM's direction to the Naval Chief to take action.

With respect to oversight - the military does not track the lives and movements of every member - there is simply no way to come up with the resources to do so.

A)This statement is not with connection to Navy but the earlier piece.
B)The PM didn't issue a statement but all he could do was ask the Chief of that agency to take action against the culprits.

 

[Mrc]

Yes. And that is why you have to call out both sides.

I would agree to that....both sides have been fault...
Leaders who listen to generals (allegedly ik for dharna from your argument. NS with zia and benazir with musharaf) are guilty of high treason
...treason to their mandate given by people which is to lead in a civilian role not in a puppet role....
Vice versa is also true ( musharaf in NRO episode, what an idiot he was)...

And its treason becaz people of pakistan pay the price

 

[WishLivePak]

Sara in ka hi kasoor hay....
Zardari or bhutto tou farishtay hain...

Who offered NRO, against judiciary wishes?

 

[Mrc]

Who offered NRO, against judiciary wishes?

Who ever offered was at fault...did it to stay in power
Who ever accepted was at fault....did so to come into power....

U and me pay the price

 

[VCheng]

.......
Absolutely - are you choosing to deliberately ignore my point about criticism of elected representatives going hand in hand with criticism of any potentially unconstitutional acts by the military?

Let us not try to be oversmart here. There is nothing "potentially" unconstitutional in what the Army does in politics (and before anybody tries to attack this again, the brave personnel doing their sworn legal duties deserve the highest respect). Why are you so afraid to call a spade a spade? The meddling in politics by the Army is patently unconstitutional and illegal.

As I have shown above, the Army cannot ask the government to suddenly wake up, do its bidding and then step aside like a switch. This cycle must stop if there is to be progress for Pakistan. And as you have begrudgingly agreed above, the Army simply cannot allow any effective challenge to its hold on power to be allowed to rise.

Looters and Thugs. Thugs and Looters. And we are back to square one in this thread. Again.

I would agree to that....both sides have been fault...
Leaders who listen to generals (allegedly ik for dharna from your argument. NS with zia and benazir with musharaf) are guilty of high treason
...treason to their mandate given by people which is to lead in a civilian role not in a puppet role....
Vice versa is also true ( musharaf in NRO episode, what an idiot he was)...

And its treason becaz people of pakistan pay the price

As I said before, looters and thugs, thugs and looters, taking turns in cahoots.

 

[Path-Finder]

Let us not try to be oversmart here. There is nothing "potentially" unconstitutional in what the Army does in politics (and before anybody tries to attack this again, the brave personnel doing their sworn legal duties deserve the highest respect). Why are you so afraid to call a spade a spade? The meddling in politics by the Army is patently unconstitutional and illegal.

As I have shown above, the Army cannot ask the government to suddenly wake up, do its bidding and then step aside like a switch. This cycle must stop if there is to be progress for Pakistan. And as you have begrudgingly agreed above, the Army simply cannot allow any effective challenge to its hold on power to be allowed to rise.

Looters and Thugs. Thugs and Looters. And we are back to square one in this thread. Again.



As I said before, looters and thugs, thugs and looters, taking turns in cahoots.

you have the cheek to call them thugs when looters are busy filling their loot and thugs clearing the country of terrorism! unless the terrorist are the good guys in your book which makes sense all we have seen from the last 26 pages is a revolving merry go round of repeating on loop that no one buying. But you need to sell your munjan.

 

[VCheng]

Facts are facts. The law is the law.

 

[Path-Finder]

Everyone has their own Thinking. Not every thinking is Right!