Whatever

[Alpha1]

ahan ur dad's long course??

Dad is a civilian , Mom is a military physician

btw i got some advices , please be patient in discussions... and never troll

 

[Zarrar Alvi]

Dad is a civilian , Mom is a military physician

btw i got some advices , please be patient in discussions... and never troll

be patient with indians ?? never hahahhahhahhah just kidding yar ok i will try.. and hey i got all the proof of SSG involvement in srilanka coz my DAD was sent by Brig T.M with group of other SSG commandos to train and do covert ops against LTTE got the war trophies and Letters from srilankan army HQ i will post them soon

 

[Alpha1]

be patient with indians ?? never hahahhahhahhah just kidding yar ok i will try.. and hey i got all the proof of SSG involvement in srilanka coz my DAD was sent by Brig T.M with group of other SSG commandos to train and do covert ops against LTTE got the war trophies and Letters from srilankan army HQ i will post them soon

do PM(personal message) me them first, I will see if it can be allowed in the forum, as making confidential info Public is illegal

 

[Icarus]

be patient with indians ?? never hahahhahhahhah just kidding yar ok i will try.. and hey i got all the proof of SSG involvement in srilanka coz my DAD was sent by Brig T.M with group of other SSG commandos to train and do covert ops against LTTE got the war trophies and Letters from srilankan army HQ i will post them soon

do PM(personal message) me them first, I will see if it can be allowed in the forum, as making confidential info Public is illegal

Looking forward to see some, do post them!

 

[Indischer]

ok great ... and m an army bratt love military life specialy SSG coz my dad is from SSG

Please don't reveal such info on a public forum dude.

 

[acetophenol]

I've got a 2 hour lonely drive in 3 hours and I can't sleep

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

@al-Hasani

I couldn't modify the post on that thread to respond to your modifications because that thread got closed, but this is a compiled version of the response with all the points covered. Some of the information has been repeated, & the links for Eupedia should be helpful as well. Hopefully, all of this will answer your queries, & I will make a post on the proto-Afroasiatic people later on whenever I get the time.

@p(-)0ENiX

That is possible about the IVC.

But that haplogroup predate any language group, ethnic group and people by a far. Nor did that haplogroup even originate on the Central Asian steppes etc. The percentage of haplogroup R is not minimal in the Arab world (Middle East). In fact it is the second most widespread haplogroup. J is the most widespread though while North Africa appears to be a blend between J, R and E. Most of Italy and Greece are not majority haplogroup R and even if they are that is not due to any invasion from Central Asia. They came there long ago since most theories point to the haplogroup R originating in the Middle East more presiely Anatolia so it is native. Aside from that then a Y-Chromosone is a small, small part of your overall DNA. That is why all Middle Eastern people closer more with each other despite differences in language, culture, religion than they do with South Asians, North Asians, South East Asians and Far East Asians. The people of the Middle East, at least the Arab world, also cluster much more with Southern Europeans (overall) and Europeans (minus Eastern Europeans who there seems to be very little affinity with) than we do with other Asians.

Well, research indicates that PIE tribes spread to different regions speaking dialects of the PIE language that eventually evolved in to different Indo-European languages. Of course cultural dominance & conquests played a role in this process as well. I never said haplogroup R1a originated in the Central Asian steppes, but proto-Indo-European tribes migrated towards both Central Asia & Europe. R1a originated in a region around the Black Sea, that much is certain, but the exact location could vary from northern Anatolia & even of course the Pontic Caspian steppes nearby. Greece, Italy or Europe in general never faced any invasion from Central Asia back then, & I think this is the point that confuses many people regarding this subject. The Mycenaeans & other proto-Greek speaking PIE tribes arrived from the region around the Black Sea which is considered to be the proto-Indo-European homeland. This homeland is where R1a originated. The PIE tribes that migrated to Central Asia (Andronovo) are the Indo-Iranians & they too began their migrations from the Pontic Caspian steppes. Greece & Italy naturally had an indigenous population already residing there before PIE migrations but cultural dominance & conquests led to the adoption of their languages, customs, Gods, etc.

The Latins (original people of Rome) tribe is another example:

Latins (Italic tribe) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Latins belonged to a group of Indo-European ("IE") tribes, conventionally known as the Italic tribes, that populated central and southern Italy during the Italian Iron Age (from about 900 BC onwards). The most common hypothesis is that the Italic peoples migrated into the Italian peninsula some time during the Italian Bronze Age (1800–900 BC).[2] The most likely migration route was from the Balkan peninsula along the Adriatic coast.[3]

Eventually, these tribes did assimilate with other indigenous populations, that's why the frequency of R1a varies. Western Europeans speak Indo-European languages but R1a is rare on that side of Europe. The reason for that is said to be some sort of conquests that resulted in the change of their languages & culture due to Indo-European elites. There are examples hinting towards that, for instance pottery style in Britannic & Gaelic geographic areas started to conform to the inferior styles of the Pontic-Caspian steppes. The Middle East is just a geographic location, & different people have roamed it for centuries, for reasons ranging from conquests to something as simple as trade. I think the term "minimal" was the wrong word to describe the presence of R1a in the Arab world, but the point being made was that some people belonging to the R1a haplogroups were absorbed in to Semitic communities & cultures in the past. As far as I know, R1a's major presence in the Arab world is more towards the eastern portions of Arabia & the Levant apart from some others. That in itself shows the affects of PIE migrations as well as their interaction with other communities.

In Southern Europe, Greece for instance; has a heavy presence of the haplogroup J2, in fact I think it's the dominant paternal lineage over there, & is present in parts of Asia minor too. This haplogroup is also present in Semitic populations due to assimilation. That is the major similarity between some people in Southern Europe & the Middle East. Despite the presence of J2 in Greece, the original Greek speakers that gave them their language, culture, & of course religion are proto-Indo-European Greek speakers belonging to the R1a haplogroup. It's their elite dominance that resulted in Hellenic civilization, which includes various aspects of their society such as their deities like Zeus (the Sky father), the war chariot, etc. The haplogroup R1a is still present in Greece & Italy, & it should be noted that the dominance of ancient Rome lead to a lot of migrations & movement within their conquered territories too. The proto-Greek language is also the sister language of proto-Indo-Iranian. The map of the Kurgan hypothesis should explain multiple routes the PIE tribes took & Eupedia is an excellent place to get started on this subject. The dominant paternal lineages in Europe are R1a & R1b, & the only people related to them in the Middle East are those that carry the same markers or those with mixture from the maternal side. Other than that, ancient Semitic people & Indo-European speaking tribes (R1a & R1b) have different paternal lineages, bloodlines, languages, cultures, but are together part of the Caucasian race. Cultural similarities that exist occur due to contact, cultural transfusion, geographic location, & the availability of resources but the cultural aspect of society is under constant evolution. Technology itself has shown to have an impact on societal cultures & languages themselves continue to evolve over time too.

Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) - Eupedia

I advise readers to visit the link above & read up on the Greek, Germanic, & Indo-Iranian branches of R1a & the Kurgan hypothesis in general to better understand this subject. It should also clarify any misconceptions regarding the presence of R1a in Greece, & even ancient Germany. R1a1a was present in Germany during the period of the Coded ware culture.

But that haplogroup predate any current language, especially the Indo-European language branch and any ethnic groups alive today outside of Africa and few isolated people such as Aboriginals, Pacific Islanders, Papuans etc.
Nor did that haplogroup even originate on the Central Asian steppe etc. from where the Aryan invasions occurred into mainly Northwestern India, Pakistan and parts of Iran.
The percentage of haplogroup R is not minimal in the Arab world (Middle East). In fact it is the second most widespread haplogroup. J is the most widespread though while North Africa appears to be a blend between J, R and E. Most of Italy and Greece are not majority haplogroup R and even if they were that would not be due to any invasion from Central Asia. They came there long ago since most theories point to the haplogroup R originating in the Middle East more presiely Anatolia. Which is just next to Greece.
Aside from that then a Y-Chromosone is a small, small part of your overall DNA. That is why all Middle Eastern people cluster more with each other despite differences in language, culture, religion than they do with South Asians, North Asians, South East Asians and Far East Asians. Pakistanis, Afghans (especially) and some Northern Indians seem to have a big affinity with the peoples of the Middle East. Afghanistan for instance seem to be blend between ME, SA and CA.
The people of the Middle East, at least the Arab world, also cluster much more with Southern Europeans (overall) and Europeans (minus Eastern Europeans who there seems to be very little affinity with) than we do with other Asians. The vast majority of South Asians appear to have indigenous roots as indigenous as they can obviously be. Overall that is if we look at the DNA tests conducted and look what people cluster with.

The Proto-Indo-European language originated among R1a speakers, similar to how people belonging to the haplogroup J1 did not always speak Semitic languages either despite the fact that Semitic languages are associated with subclades of the haplogroup J1. However, the proto-Semitic language is most likely to have originated among people belonging to the haplogroup J1. Alright, I understand the confusion, the word Aryan is generally misused by many people. This word was used by Indo-Iranians to refer to themselves, it's no different that the word Hellene, which Greeks used to refer to themselves. However the proto-Indo-Iranians (Aryans) are cousins to other proto-Indo-European tribes which include the proto-Greeks, Latins, etc. The Indo-Iranians migrated from the Black Sea region towards Central Asia before migrating towards the Indus, Afghanistan, etc. They belonged to the R1a haplogroup & I never stated that R1a originated in Central Asia. It originated near the Pontic Caspian steppes around the Black Sea & it's from there where the Indo-Iranian tribes originated as well before moving on to Central Asia. Yes, the proto-Greek speakers migrated from the PIE homeland around the Black Sea to mainland Greece. Getting back to the word Aryan, the only reason it was used by Europeans in recent times is because Sanskrit; the oldest Indo-European language contained it as a reference to Indo-Iranian tribes. Thus, they ended adopting the term temporarily for all European speakers of Indo-European languages. However, the ancient Greeks & Latins for instance never called themselves Aryans.

Below is the map of the Kurgan hypothesis:

​

This is a very simplified map, but you can see that the pink colored region is the proto-Indo-European homeland around the Black Sea, that's where the haplogroup R1a originated. There are migrations everywhere as represented in that map including ones to Greece & Italy. The arrow moving towards Central Asia represents proto-Indo-Iranian tribes. The proto-Indo-Iranians who called themselves Aryans later migrated down towards the Indus, Afghanistan, etc.

The links below from Eupedia are excellent for getting started on this subject, & they agree with my post as well.

Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) - Eupedia

Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) - Eupedia

There are various other sources that I have referred to pertaining to this subject as well to gather up to date information, nevertheless, those links are a great starting point. Human DNA is without a doubt extremely complex, but the importance of the Y-DNA haplogroup is to indicate paternal origins & that is naturally used when clustering different populations or studying them. Pakistan & Afghanistan do have similarities with parts of the Middle East, but a lot of those similarities result from a shared religion. However, cultural & linguistic similarities on their own aren't enough because these 2 aspects of society tend to evolve over time. Many tribal cultures for instance share multiple similarities even if the populations being compared have nothing to do with each other. Arab culture as another example has evolved a lot since pre-Islamic times. Ancient Germanic culture or the culture of those the Romans considered "barbarians" is extremely different today. The war between Arminius & Varus highlights points of contention between the ancient Germans & Romans. That being said, the close proximity & contact between our regions & societies has led to some cultural transfusion both in ancient times & perhaps even today. That can be observed in individuals too, if a person hangs out with friends of a different nationality, he or she will unconsciously adopt some elements of their behavior. The Sub-Continent as a whole has various different ethnic groups with varying origins. It is by no means a homogeneous region. The R1a paternal lineage is present in heavy amounts in the regions around the Indus, but there has been ample migrations of different people in our lands alongside assimilation too. The same can be said for other parts of the world too. However, a purer Indo-Iranian appearance is generally found among Kashmiris, Pashtuns, Baloch, parts of Punjab, etc. Many of us retain features found in the Indo-Iranian branch of PIE tribes so we aren't completely different either.

 

[al-Hasani]

@p(-)0ENiX

PIE tribes as you call them were only a small group of people that belonged to the R haplogroup. They "only" had an impact in Eastern Europe and parts of Northern India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Central Asia.

The R1a haplogroup is more or less absent from Italy and Greece and nearly totally absent in Western Europe. Those regions were populated by people belonging to the R haplogroup long before any PIE tribes migrated from Central Asia/Caspian Sea into Eastern Europe.

The R1b haplogroup for instance is found in large populations of Western Africa and they obviously had nothing to do with those PIE tribes.

My point is that non-R haplogroups make up a bigger percentage of the populations of Italy and Greece than the R haplogroup in this case R1b which is more or less absent from Central Asia, parts of Pakistan, parts of Afghanistan and Northern India etc.

Most of that are theories hence the name "Kurgan theory". It has more to do with linguistics than anything.

It is wrong to link the haplogroup J with Semitic people or any particular people of today. Since Semitic people are as anybody else of a mixed stock. J, R, G and E happens to be the most common haplogroups not only among the Semitic speaking people but among all Middle Eastern, North African people and to a large extent Southern Europeans and the people of the Balkans.

How do you know that the ancient Greeks and Latins belonged to the R1a haplogrup? That is highly unlikely. Besides most of them were assimilated locals that lived in those areas many thousands of years before any migrations from Central Asia/Pontic area. Actually levels of the R haplogroup on the Arabian Peninsula points to about 20-25% of the population. Some places more. About the same in the Levant and large parts of Northern Africa. But it is mostly R1b.

Most importantly the Y-chromonse DNA is just a tiny, tiny part of your overall ancestry.

My point is and that is confirmed by actual DNA is that Caucasian people of the ME, including Arabs, cluster much more with each other genetically than they do with South Asians, North Asians, Far Asians (Mongoloids), and South East Asians. Regardless of the linguistic group they belong to or ethnic group. They also cluster much more with the nearby Europeans especially of Southern and Western Europe including the Balkans. Much less so with the Eastern Europeans though.

Another point was that an supposed Indian (of which about little over half of the population are speaking an Indo-European language) are not actually of "Indo-European origins" but just people assimilated and now speaking an foreign language. That is mostly the case outside areas of Northwest India. Most Indians are of a local stock and overall all Indians and South Asians cluster more with fellow South Asians than they do with outsiders including people of the Middle East. Iran is included in the ME here.

The exception here seems to be Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan who also geographically closer to the ME and Central Asia than the remaining South Asia. But even there the South Asian genetics are very prevalent. I think that it is about 50/50 in those places if I recall correctly. If you look at a persons overall DNA and not just the haplogroup they belong to on the paternal side. That obviously only makes up a tiny, tiny percentage of your overall DNA and thus ancestry.

The Arabs and people of the ME were usually referred to as Orientalids or Arabids by racialists and other European "experts" in connection to races or alpinids. In fact Arabs were believed to be an branch of the Mediterranean people that composed most of Northern Africa and Southern Europe (Mediterranean areas). Atlanto-Mediterranean was believed to be a branch of the Mediterranean people and their type is predominantly found in Western Europe (France, large parts of Iberia and the British Isles).

Lastly in general I don't like whole linguistic groups and some ethnic groups claiming whole haplogroups that predate them with thousands of years and the languages that they invented. More so when those same people did not come from the same stock but where a mixture like any other people. That group as any other group of people might have a predominant haplogroup that they belonged to but that's about it.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

@al-Hasani

I will respond to you later, but in the meanwhile you should visit those Eupedia links that I provided. The elite dominance of proto-Indo-European tribes is a concept that needs to be emphasized & understood when dealing with the spread of Indo-European languages, cultures, & religions. The Kurgan hypothesis deals with genetics & linguistics, & the PIE homeland is also the place of origin for R1a. The Eupedia links should answer most of your queries in detail, but I will write a response as soon as possible.

 

[al-Hasani]

@al-Hasani

I will respond to you later, but in the meanwhile you should visit those Eupedia links that I provided. Elite dominance of proto-Indo-European tribes needs to emphasized when dealing with the spread of Indo-European language, culture, & religion. The Kurgan hypothesis deals with genetics & linguistics, & the PIE homeland is also the place of origin for R1a. The Eupedia links should answer most of your queries in detail, but I will write a response as soon as possible.

I know that forum well and those links are not written by professionals but by forum members.

Nor has it anything to do with the topics I discussed earlier namely the overall genetic closeness of the people of ME vis a vis those of South Asia, Central Asia, Far Eastern Asia and South East Asia. Also vis a vis Southern Europe/Balkans/Western Europe.
Genetically it has been proven that most of South Asia, aside from areas of Afghanistan, Northern India and Pakistan mostly originate from a local stock. That is also evident when looking at the maternal side.

Once again haplogroup R1a has a minimal presence in Western Europe, Italy and Greece. it is only a majority in areas of Central Europe and Eastern Europe. Nowhere else in Europe.

Nobody disputes the spread of the Indo-European languages and partially culture. But the Kurgan theory is not a fact but just a theory. It mostly deals with linguistics anyway and cultural assimilation.

The presence of haplogrup I which is the dominant haplogroup of Germany and large parts of Scandinavia and some parts of Eastern Europe is for instance due to the earliest migrations from the Middle East (Fertile Crescent). Haplogroup I is an ancestor of haplogroup J. The haplogroup R1b which is the by far most dominant haplogroup of Western Europe and parts of Southern Europe has no ties to the Kurgan theory whose people belonged to the R1a haplogroup (apparently) and thus neither the supposed Kurgan theory. R1a and R1b are indeed related to each other but the R1b is likely to have originated in Anatolia thousands of years before any expansion of any PIE tribes from Central Asia/Pontic Steppe into Eastern Europe and parts of South Asia. That is evident.

Also none of us know the full genetic outlooks of the earliest PIE people (the people who first started speaking Indo-European languages) and where they exactly emerged. What we know for sure though is that people belonging to that haplogroup (R( lived in large parts of the ME, Caucasus and Western Europe and Southern Europe long before any Indo-European languages evolved. Thus it is wrong to say that the PIE people that reached PARTS of South Asia are the source of the majority of the population of ancient Rome, Greece etc.

Most importantly then the R1a haplogroup branches found in Eastern Europe differ significantly from those found in South Asia. In Italy and Greece most people belonging to the R haplogroup belong to the R1b haplogroup and their branch of the R1b haplogroup differ from the R1b haplogroups found outside of Europe. For instance in Cameroon and Western Africa among Black people. So overall if you want to find a genetic closeness of people of region x with Europe or the ME or somewhere else you need to look at the overall DNA. And in terms of the Y-Chromosone DNA you have to look at your distinct branch as well.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

@al-Hasani

Can you wait? It's very late here, & Eupedia is not the only source on this subject. Furthermore, you seem to be mixing up different ideas but some of the points you made are correct & they actually happen to agree with my earlier post. Another thing to note here is that modern populations genetic studies aren't always representative of ancient populations. For instance, R1a is absent or extremely rare in many portions of Western Europe, but it was present in ancient Germany during the Corded Ware culture & in parts of Western Europe such as countries like Spain too. Regardless, wait for me to respond later on.

 

[al-Hasani]

@al-Hasani

Can you wait? It's very late here, & Eupedia is not the only source on this subject. Furthermore, you seem to be mixing up different ideas but some of the points you made are correct & they actually happen to agree with my earlier post. Another thing to note here is that modern populations genetic studies aren't always representative of ancient populations. For instance, R1a is absent or extremely rare in many portions of Western Europe, but it was present in ancient Germany during the Corded Ware culture. Regardless, wait for me to respond later on.

I am not mixing up anything, dear. I have read those links a long time ago. I seriously suggest that you to look past just the Y-Chromosone DNA and look more into the overall ancestry of given country and its population or region it lies in. It is much more accurate that way and gives a better understanding of not only the paternal but also maternal ancestry aside from obviously the overall. Even when you look into just one tiny, tiny part of your ancestry, the Y-Chromosone that you belong to, then notice that there are dozens of branches that differ from each other despite belonging to the same overall Y-Chromosone. For instance, as I wrote then the R1a haplogroup and its branches found in Eastern Europe differ from the ones found in parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Northern India and Bangladesh etc. Especially when it comes to age.

I don't deny that the Kurgan theory is possible but all I am saying is that it is mostly based on linguistics and the expansion of culture. Most people that came under them got assimialitd culturally and linguistically. Not genetically. If that was the case Europe would be 100 times more homogenous.

Also I don't agree with the people of the Kurgan theory having any major genetic input to the people of ancient Greece or Italy. In fact you yourself point out to them likely belonging to the haplogroup R1a, which seems correct given the mummies/skeletons found in Russia on the Pontic Steppe, but the problem with that is that this haplogorup is nearly absent in Italy and Greece. More so in Grreece. But still it is not more than 10-20% if I recall.

In general I have a problem with people equating language = with some kind of haplogroup that WAS thought to be the dominant haplogroup among the proto-speakers of language x or y. Or the logic that most of those proto-speakers were even of the same stock to begin with! The likelyhood and logic point against such a thing. Hence why you have so many differences, branches etc. just in terms of the Y-Chromosone DNA among speakers of the same language family. Let alone their entire DNA!

That's all fine. I will be waiting although I am soon going to bed.

Yes, I have read about the R1a being present in Germany. Actually it is among the biggest if not the biggest marker of Eastern Germany (Mecklenburg Vorpommern, Brandenburg and to a smaller extent Saxony. There is somewhat of a consensus that this comes from the Slavic people who are predominantly R1a and we know from history that there were big, big Slavic population movements into Eastern Germany. Even to this day there are remnants of them seen among the Sorb people. Slavs were the majority of those parts of Germany until 500-600 years ago. Many got Germanized and thus were assimilated but that obviously did not change their ancestry. Or the names of cities etc. Berlin being one of the many examples.

But once you cross south into Bavaria and West Germany (basically the old Western Germany) the R1a is barely present. At least at very small percentages. That's quite interesting and points to the above theory being correct or at least largely.
If you look at the work of European racialists discussing phenotypes they point to the same thing. They called those Slavic looking Eastern Germans belonging to the R1a haplogroup (mostly mind you) for Balto-Slavics in appearance. That's due to the similarity of the Slavic and Baltic languages who again happens to have a very close relation to the Kurgan theory. If I am not wrong the women behind the Kurgan Theory was an Lithuanian herself.

 

[S.U.R.B.]

student, i will start CA very soon inshallah
other than that I am a golfer , military enthusiast

You play golf in real?
I'm planning too.(Been an observer)
But not until i get through a certain stage in my career.
How many eagles have you got on your card?
Which driver do you prefer to use there BTW on the tee?

 

[RAMPAGE]

​

@S.U.R.B.

I'm suffering from chest congestion

Can i smoke a little ???

Btw can i drink fresh juice ????

 

[S.U.R.B.]

​

@S.U.R.B.

I'm suffering from chest congestion

Can i smoke a little ???

Btw can i drink fresh juice ????

I love fruit juices,the good thing is that you can take them whenever you like.The grapefruit juice, yes ,it requires some care, as it can interact with the meds.

Yes,you can smoke if the engine fitted in your chest isn't burning fuel efficiently.Do you care less about your fuel-throttled engine lately?
The white or gray smoke with older engines after warm up is from oil getting past worn valve guides. With the newly rebuilt engines where pistons and rings have bee coated with oil you may expect pure white smoke coming out of it. Isn't it the same white smoke you were mentioning?