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What would you like as a winner for the Indian MRCA competition

What would you like as a winner for the Indian MRCA competition

  • Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

    Votes: 17 14.0%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 48 39.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 34 28.1%
  • Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mikoyan MiG-35

    Votes: 11 9.1%
  • Saab Gripen NG

    Votes: 11 9.1%

  • Total voters
    121
LiveFist Readers Want F-16 Out First!

Emotions? Specs? The PAF angle? Whatever. In the poll I had here, out of 845 votes polled, a whopping 59% thought the F-16IN Super Viper should be the first bird kicked from the MMRCA competition. Interesting. Only 41 voters wanted the Gripen yanked, making it the most popular craft in the competition on the blog. Of course, in an earlier poll, LiveFist readers decided that the Rafale should win the competition.

Photo: Me and Lockheed-Martin pilot Billy Flynn after our 9G sortie in a UAE Air Force F-16 Desert Falcon, Feb 2009, Yelahanka

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LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: LiveFist Readers Want F-16 Out First!
 
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Its so obvious indians dont like f-16 much and dont really regard it as next gen fighter for the simple reason - most people think its the same fighter paksitan got years back.

and more over everbody seen how reliable americans are during war they stop supplying the parts.

-------------and they also dont really know and think too high of any other airforce than USAF. -------
 
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Even more interestingly, none of the Pakistanis so far want IAF to get F16s too!!
 
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I did buddy.....
for the simple reason it combines all (true multirole,no strings attached,excellent ToT,Kaveri-Snecma,Political advantage,commonality with Mirage - so less logistical change,No sanctions..etc etc..)

First of all no one wants Rafale, why? because its not upto what it costs.

True Multirole: So as others.

No strings attached: Same goes to EFT, Mig-35 and Gripen NG.

Excellent ToT: No. No one gives us 'excellent' ToT. We have huge problems with France over Scorpene ToT.

Kaveri-Snecma JV: Good but M88 is old. EJ200 is much newer and more advanced.

Political advantage: No major political advantage. France already got huge Scorpene, Mirage-2K upgrades and other deals. They may win second line submarines deal as well as P-17A. They don't need more.

Commonality with Mirage - so less logistical change: For the same reason IA bought T-90S instead of Arjun!!! If we think like that than we would never buy a new better system.

No sanction: There is no question of sanction until India tests her nukes again, if we do than even France may block some technologies under pressure. Not full but partially. Note that France is now a member of NATO.
 
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sumit [Moderator] 6 months ago
I think it's time for a clear comparison!
A2A:
Speed & Thrust - Though the upg M88 engine, or a possible Kaveri - Snecma engine are not ready now, advantage Mig
Maneuverability - both could have a similar t/w ratio, so it will end up with canards vs. TVC. I would say advantage Mig
Radar - if the latest reports are true and 200Km are achiveable, again advantage Mig
Missiles - R73 and R77 vs. Mica IR/ASRAAM/Sidewinder and Mica EM/Meteor/AMRAAM, I would say advantage Rafale, because of newer technology
RCS - below 1 for Rafale vs. ? of the Mig, but the fact that the Rafale was designed to have a low RCS and the Mig airframe is just a slight upg of the older Mig 29 with RAM coatings, let me doubt the it can compete that. Advantage Rafale
EWS and Avionics - clear advantage to Rafale, because the Mig needs to be added with French, or Israeli techs to be competitive

A2G:
Payload - 9,5t for Rafale, 6,5t for the Mig, advantage Rafale
Weapon stations - 14 vs. 9, advantage Rafale
Anti ship missiles - 4 x Exocet/Harpoon vs. 4 x Kh-31A/Kh-35E, equal
Anti radiation missile - 5 Alarm/Harm vs. 4 x 4хKh-31P slight advantage Rafale
Guided bombs - 3 x 1000Kg, 5x 400Kg and up to 12 x 250Kg vs. 4 x KAB-500Kr, clear advantage Rafale
Cruise missiles - 3 x Scalp vs. ? advantage Rafale

Feel free to disagree, but I don't see how the Mig should outperform the Rafale.

The next criteria will be ToT and again Rafale offers clearly more, because those techs are new and not already available in IAF now, so ADA & HAL will beneft way more if they get more access to western techs.

And the final criteria, the cost of course!
On the one side the Mig with unit costs of around $40 - 50 million, plus costs for additional western techs and on the other, unit costs of around $80 - 90 million, but less maintenance costs.

I hope for an European winner, because those fighters have the newest techs and more important gives us more independence!
All eggs in one basket makes us only more dependent to Russia and we will remain just as a buyer and not as a partner on the same level.
Same reason for the US, you just have to look at countires like South Korea, Japan, UK, or Israel to understand that they never will be real partners and always remain buyers. I think India don't need such a relationship anymore and should not go to a direction that could force anykind of pressure on us, unnecessary if it is Russia, or the US.
And if we have to pay more money to get that kind of freedom and independence, it's more than worth it!

Indian MRCA competition, who will win?|CEOWORLD Magazine
 
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Best Plane for Indian MRCA 126 Deal, page 1


Boeing F-18 E/F Super Fries (Hornet)
Good Points:
-It has AESA (and we all know that having an AESA radar means you can see things farther away, keep track of more of them, launch lots of missiles, battle Japanese city-destroying monsters, fix marriages, and dissipate flatulence in enclosed areas. Trust me. The sales brochure says so.)
-It's an upgrade of a proven airframe
-Taking the whole package, you also get proven equipment to go along with it, including AMRAAM, a few AIM-9's, and other fun toys.
-It's got 11 hard points and the carrying capacity for a lot of doodads, thingamabobs, and doohickeys.

Bad Points:
-This thing is the largest and heaviest in the competition by far.
-The Indians already have a really big fighter, they want a complimentary small one. This just isn't what they want.
-So far, AESA on the Super Fries is pretty spotty. I know, it'll be fixed in a future upgrade, but the competition is now.
-It's slightly smaller than the $45 million Su-30 MKI's and yet costs about 12 million more.
-It's not stealth. Apparently everyone in the 21st century needs stealth or the F-22 will destroy them from 500 km away. With a gun burst.

Final Word:
The aircraft is definitely useful, but ultimately it just doesn't fit the niche that the Indians are looking for. It's kind of like the one-and-a-half-hand bastard sword, it's a bit smaller than the Su-30 MKI's, but too large to be the small multirole that's the goal here. It does have the AESA radar, but that's not special since the MiG-35 is flying around. Also, there have been reports of the F-18's radar has been slightly spotty. I really think that this aircraft, although not a bad one, is just not the right choice here.

Mikoyan MiG-35 Fulcrum-F:

Good Points:
-It's a light multirole. This sounds familiar, possibly related to the idea of some competition?
-It's the other AESA-bearing aircraft, which is a big plus nowadays.
-It makes a really good airshow, which is the prime use of most aircraft nowadays anyway.
-It was originally designed to compliment Su-XX fighters, which conveniently the Indians have.
-That OLS is really cool. It can switch between TV mode, IR mode, or both. It's a pretty neat improvement on IRST.

Bad Points:
-It's only got 8 hard points. Fewer toys to play with.
-It isn't Low-Observability
-It's still just a stopgap until the next multirole. In fact, it was almost just a demonstration that Mikoyan is still alive and doing stuff since Sukhoi got the prime spot in PAK-FA.

Final Word
It's a strong choice. MiG-29 complimented Su-27, MiG-35 compliments Su-30 MKI. It's a pretty good deal. It also has the AESA radar, which is a pretty big plus. It fits the job of a light multirole alternative to the MKI's in the Indian Air Force. That fits my checklist pretty good. I'd say it is currently at the top of it (and so do a few news sources).

Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon:

Good Points:
-For a PESA radar, CAPTOR is pretty impressive
-It is, in fact, pretty light. Which fits squarely into the requirements of which competition?
-It has supercruise. I don't think that any of the other toys in this competition have that.
-It's in full, reliable production. Order and they'll start shipping pretty soon.

Bad points:
-It has some RCS reductions, but still isn't stealth.
-The accompanying Meteor missile that's supposed to compliment it isn't quite out yet.
-How well would it mesh with the Su-30 MKI's systems?

Final Word
It's definitely a contender. It's been sold and is in full production for other countries, another order would definitely work for the Indians. It's a good performer and fits nicely into the niche. If the Indians can attach the weapons they've got and make it mesh properly, it could definitely work.

Lockheed Martin F-16 (Block 70):

Good Points:
-Hey, it has AESA as well. It's even what appears to be a later model than that on the Super Fries.
-It's a proven airframe
-It is indeed in the realm of the desirable for the Indians. It's a light multirole.

Bad Points:
-It's an old airframe and is not even close to Low-Observability. And you guys thought I was insane saying that Su-35 BM was made to be a little closer to the stealthy side.
-It's an airframe that is going to be very quickly made obsolete by the F-35. Upgrades on an older fighter won't take it past a totally new airframe destined for the same roles. If they want something like the F-16, it'd be wiser to just beg for the F-35.

Final Word:
I love the F-16. It's a cool, sexy plane. But the problem here is that it's getting to the point where you have to let it go. The F-16 is going to get replaced by what is pretty widely accepted as a superior aircraft, the F-35 (just because I hate it doesn't mean I get to negate fact). Also, the infrastructure for the F-16's is simply not there for India, regardless of how cool we think it'd be to see F-16's and Su-30 MKI's in formation together. It's just not the choice for India.


Saab JAS39 Gripen

Good Points:
-One of the coolest features: It is made for really fast turnaround. It is supposed to land, rearm, and get back up with a 5 man crew in ten minutes. It can even land on public highways.
-It can do some very short landings and takeoffs. It's made to work in less than 800m.

Bad Points:
-It's tiny. Really tiny. So tiny, in fact, that it'll be taking the spot of the HAL Tejas aircraft currently in development by the Indian Air Force. Undesirable.
-It's expensive. For such a small aircraft it is unbelievably expensive. 45-40 million per unit. Ouch.
-It doesn't have AESA, TVC, or really many of those whizz-bang features we all love
-It's not capable of handling a lot of current armament. It's best armament would probably be the Meteor, which has yet to come out.

Final Word:
The JAS39 is an awesome mini-plane. If you want something unbelievably light for duty, this would be it. Unfortunately this conflicts with the HAL Tejas that the Indians have going, so its purchase is not very likely or useful. Disappointing since Saab makes some of the coolest planes.

Dassault Rafale

Good Points
-It's definitely in the weight spectrum that the Indian Air Force is looking for.
-It has that nifty SPECTRA electronic survival completely integrated with the airframe. It's not like having complete all-aspect stealth, but it does have some accompanying passive sensors for signature control.

Bad Points
-It's pretty expensive, at what looks to be like about 60 million US each.
-No AESA, and not much integration with the accompanying Indian inventory, the MKI's.

Final Word
I really don't consider the Rafale a particular contender here. It was made with France's defense in mind since they refused the Eurofighter deal. Although not a bad fighter and having some genuinely cool stuff, I don't think it's quite leading the pack here.


Verdict:

I think that we've got some serious competition up here. There's some serious hairiness about but I think it's pretty clear for me. If I were the Indian Air Force I'd be taking the MiG-35 or the EF-2000. Even then, I'd have to say that the MiG-35 would take the cake as it was made directly to compliment the heavier Sukhoi fighters (several of which India operates and manufactures). This gives it the ability to use existing infrastructure as well as perform its mission without infringing on the roles of others, fitting well between the Tejas and Flankers.
 
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Best Plane for Indian MRCA 126 Deal, page 1


Boeing F-18 E/F Super Fries (Hornet)
Good Points:
-It has AESA (and we all know that having an AESA radar means you can see things farther away, keep track of more of them, launch lots of missiles, battle Japanese city-destroying monsters, fix marriages, and dissipate flatulence in enclosed areas. Trust me. The sales brochure says so.)
-It's an upgrade of a proven airframe
-Taking the whole package, you also get proven equipment to go along with it, including AMRAAM, a few AIM-9's, and other fun toys.
-It's got 11 hard points and the carrying capacity for a lot of doodads, thingamabobs, and doohickeys.

Bad Points:
-This thing is the largest and heaviest in the competition by far.
-The Indians already have a really big fighter, they want a complimentary small one. This just isn't what they want.
-So far, AESA on the Super Fries is pretty spotty. I know, it'll be fixed in a future upgrade, but the competition is now.
-It's slightly smaller than the $45 million Su-30 MKI's and yet costs about 12 million more.
-It's not stealth. Apparently everyone in the 21st century needs stealth or the F-22 will destroy them from 500 km away. With a gun burst.

Final Word:
The aircraft is definitely useful, but ultimately it just doesn't fit the niche that the Indians are looking for. It's kind of like the one-and-a-half-hand bastard sword, it's a bit smaller than the Su-30 MKI's, but too large to be the small multirole that's the goal here. It does have the AESA radar, but that's not special since the MiG-35 is flying around. Also, there have been reports of the F-18's radar has been slightly spotty. I really think that this aircraft, although not a bad one, is just not the right choice here.

The bad points are not bad points really when you compare with other contenders except sanction.
Mikoyan MiG-35 Fulcrum-F:

Good Points:
-It's a light multirole. This sounds familiar, possibly related to the idea of some competition?
-It's the other AESA-bearing aircraft, which is a big plus nowadays.
-It makes a really good airshow, which is the prime use of most aircraft nowadays anyway.
-It was originally designed to compliment Su-XX fighters, which conveniently the Indians have.
-That OLS is really cool. It can switch between TV mode, IR mode, or both. It's a pretty neat improvement on IRST.

Bad Points:
-It's only got 8 hard points. Fewer toys to play with.
-It isn't Low-Observability
-It's still just a stopgap until the next multirole. In fact, it was almost just a demonstration that Mikoyan is still alive and doing stuff since Sukhoi got the prime spot in PAK-FA.

Final Word
It's a strong choice. MiG-29 complimented Su-27, MiG-35 compliments Su-30 MKI. It's a pretty good deal. It also has the AESA radar, which is a pretty big plus. It fits the job of a light multirole alternative to the MKI's in the Indian Air Force. That fits my checklist pretty good. I'd say it is currently at the top of it (and so do a few news sources).

Least capable AESA among the contenders but no sanction and less ToT issues.
Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon:

Good Points:
-For a PESA radar, CAPTOR is pretty impressive
-It is, in fact, pretty light. Which fits squarely into the requirements of which competition?
-It has supercruise. I don't think that any of the other toys in this competition have that.
-It's in full, reliable production. Order and they'll start shipping pretty soon.

Bad points:
-It has some RCS reductions, but still isn't stealth.
-The accompanying Meteor missile that's supposed to compliment it isn't quite out yet.
-How well would it mesh with the Su-30 MKI's systems?

Final Word
It's definitely a contender. It's been sold and is in full production for other countries, another order would definitely work for the Indians. It's a good performer and fits nicely into the niche. If the Indians can attach the weapons they've got and make it mesh properly, it could definitely work.

EFT got an AESA named CAESAR. Its the best AESA among the contenders. Its has some LO features as well as SC allows to reduce IR signature. Most agile.
Lockheed Martin F-16 (Block 70):

Good Points:
-Hey, it has AESA as well. It's even what appears to be a later model than that on the Super Fries.
-It's a proven airframe
-It is indeed in the realm of the desirable for the Indians. It's a light multirole.

Bad Points:
-It's an old airframe and is not even close to Low-Observability. And you guys thought I was insane saying that Su-35 BM was made to be a little closer to the stealthy side.
-It's an airframe that is going to be very quickly made obsolete by the F-35. Upgrades on an older fighter won't take it past a totally new airframe destined for the same roles. If they want something like the F-16, it'd be wiser to just beg for the F-35.

Final Word:
I love the F-16. It's a cool, sexy plane. But the problem here is that it's getting to the point where you have to let it go. The F-16 is going to get replaced by what is pretty widely accepted as a superior aircraft, the F-35 (just because I hate it doesn't mean I get to negate fact). Also, the infrastructure for the F-16's is simply not there for India, regardless of how cool we think it'd be to see F-16's and Su-30 MKI's in formation together. It's just not the choice for India.

Waste of money!

Saab JAS39 Gripen

Good Points:
-One of the coolest features: It is made for really fast turnaround. It is supposed to land, rearm, and get back up with a 5 man crew in ten minutes. It can even land on public highways.
-It can do some very short landings and takeoffs. It's made to work in less than 800m.

Bad Points:
-It's tiny. Really tiny. So tiny, in fact, that it'll be taking the spot of the HAL Tejas aircraft currently in development by the Indian Air Force. Undesirable.
-It's expensive. For such a small aircraft it is unbelievably expensive. 45-40 million per unit. Ouch.
-It doesn't have AESA, TVC, or really many of those whizz-bang features we all love
-It's not capable of handling a lot of current armament. It's best armament would probably be the Meteor, which has yet to come out.

Final Word:
The JAS39 is an awesome mini-plane. If you want something unbelievably light for duty, this would be it. Unfortunately this conflicts with the HAL Tejas that the Indians have going, so its purchase is not very likely or useful. Disappointing since Saab makes some of the coolest planes.

Good but collides with Tejas mk2.


Dassault Rafale

Good Points
-It's definitely in the weight spectrum that the Indian Air Force is looking for.
-It has that nifty SPECTRA electronic survival completely integrated with the airframe. It's not like having complete all-aspect stealth, but it does have some accompanying passive sensors for signature control.

Bad Points
-It's pretty expensive, at what looks to be like about 60 million US each.
-No AESA, and not much integration with the accompanying Indian inventory, the MKI's.

Final Word
I really don't consider the Rafale a particular contender here. It was made with France's defense in mind since they refused the Eurofighter deal. Although not a bad fighter and having some genuinely cool stuff, I don't think it's quite leading the pack here.

No takers. Very expensive.

Verdict:

I think that we've got some serious competition up here. There's some serious hairiness about but I think it's pretty clear for me. If I were the Indian Air Force I'd be taking the MiG-35 or the EF-2000. Even then, I'd have to say that the MiG-35 would take the cake as it was made directly to compliment the heavier Sukhoi fighters (several of which India operates and manufactures). This gives it the ability to use existing infrastructure as well as perform its mission without infringing on the roles of others, fitting well between the Tejas and Flankers.

Actually F-18 was the hot cake until now but with some political turmoil between India and US, Gripen NG and Mig-35's chances are getting better.
 
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First of all no one wants Rafale, why? because its not upto what it costs

True Multirole: So as others.
So as others...? No Mig 35 is still a air superiority fighter,Hornet is a strike fighter,EFT -A2G still not matured,F-16...u know why...
so RAFALE - more mature multirole than others.

No strings attached: Same goes to EFT, Mig-35 and Gripen NG.

agreed but EFT and Gripen are dependent on US sanctions and Rafale is more independent than those.Mig 35 - true but we need to move away from Rusians and reduce the dependency.

Excellent ToT: No. No one gives us 'excellent' ToT. We have huge prtish oblems with France over Scorpene ToT.

problems in one doesnt mean problems in another.We had problems in Gorshkov but that doesnt mean have probs in Su 30 MKI,,same case here.

Kaveri-Snecma JV: Good but M88 is old. EJ200 is much newer and more advanced.
by saying Kaveri-snecma i meant not using the Snecma M88 but the co developing of the Kaveri engine with the help of Snecma.We need a indigenous engine and as far as i know the british have not offered to co-develop the engine.

Political advantage: No major political advantage. France already got huge Scorpene, Mirage-2K upgrades and other deals. They may win second line submarines deal as well as P-17A. They don't need more.
political advantages are only secondary to the other factors mentioned above

Commonality with Mirage - so less logistical change: For the same reason IA bought T-90S instead of Arjun!!! If we think like that than we would never buy a new better system.

ur analogy is wrong mate.If an indigenous system (Arjun) is the one in question i would never worry abt the infrastructural change we need to do. But all the competitors are foreign and rafale exactly isnt the worst..In fact technology wise it is one of the best out there.

No sanction: There is no question of sanction until India tests her nukes again, if we do than even France may block some technologies under pressure. Not full but partially. Note that France is now a member of NATO.

U cant argue that the french are not exactly as fickle minded as American in the case of sanctions.the UK is just a 51 st state of US bro.
 
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Actually F-18 was the hot cake until now but with some political turmoil between India and US, Gripen NG and Mig-35's chances are getting better.

For all you know this is being setup as a deal to do away with that turmoil...

Mig 35, results in too many eggs in the same basket...and too far away from production...
 
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Considerations: Strategic considerations may influence government’s final decision.

MiG-35



Zhuk AE AESA radar the most powerful amidst the MMRCA contenders.
Russia, on top of a full technology transfer, is offering India help in building its own advanced radar.
100 per cent technology transfer for the MiG-35, including the radar and all its systems.
Airframe barely improved from MiG-29
Life cycle cost of Russian fighters is traditionally high

Super Hornet

f18sh_header.jpg


Battle-tested, frontline fighter with the US Navy
can function as refuelling tanker with external fuel tanks
US restrictions on modifications and end usage
Earlier generation design, dating back to 1980s
Heavy, 30-ton aircraft, expensive

Super Viper



Tested modern fighter, has logged over 100,000 combat missions globally
Single-engine, 19-tonne fighter, price competitive
Advanced Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar
Four F-16 production lines functioning world-wide
Earlier vintage F-16s in service with Pakistan Air Force

Typhoon



Contemporary fighter, still evolving
High performance, high-end technology, including supercruise
Offering India development partnership
No end user restrictions, easy transfer of technology
EADS already helping to develop India’s LCA
No combat experience
Heavy, 25-ton aircraft, expensive
AESA radar still under development

Gripen



Can land, refuel, rearm and take off in 10 minutes
Light, single-engine, highly cost-effective
Selex Raven AESA radar with advanced swashplate technology
Willing to hand over source codes for high-tech equipment
SAAB offering an advanced version of a state-of-the-art a second generation AESA (advanced extended search array radar), The radar will come with its software source code.
Gripen is way to dependent on other countries (engine, radar, or the main weapons), what would be a problem if India face sanctions again and it could not share any techs with LCA without permission of them.
Has US components, including engines and avionics
India has never operated a Swedish fighter

Rafale



France deploys on land and aircraft carriers
IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet creates comfort level with Dassault
Transfer of technology smooth; no end user restrictions
Only non-US fighter with deployed AESA radar
Limited combat experience
25-tonne, twin-engine aircraft, expensive
 
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So as others...? No Mig 35 is still a air superiority fighter,Hornet is a strike fighter,EFT -A2G still not matured,F-16...u know why...
so RAFALE - more mature multirole than others.
Mate, as we know the main condition of the MRCA is the fighter have to be multi-role. Now do you think without multi-role capabilities they participated in this competition? No. Mig-29 was a air superiority fighter, Mig-35 is a multirole fighter. So are Super Hornet and F-16. EFT got full A-to-G capabilities with Tranche 2 and 3 upgrades. There is nothing more multi-role capabilities in Rafale that these fighters don't have.


agreed but EFT and Gripen are dependent on US sanctions and Rafale is more independent than those.Mig 35 - true but we need to move away from Rusians and reduce the dependency.
Good points. But US systems in EFT are less. Four nations will take time to put a sanction against India.



problems in one doesnt mean problems in another.We had problems in Gorshkov but that doesnt mean have probs in Su 30 MKI,,same case here.

We had problems with SU-30 MKI. Russian denied many technologies to us. They even did not want to show us the softwares for modification. George Fernandez took up the issue and later solved.


by saying Kaveri-snecma i meant not using the Snecma M88 but the co developing of the Kaveri engine with the help of Snecma.We need a indigenous engine and as far as i know the british have not offered to co-develop the engine.
K-S is already done deal, whether we go for Rafale or not.

political advantages are only secondary to the other factors mentioned above
Yes it is.


ur analogy is wrong mate.If an indigenous system (Arjun) is the one in question i would never worry abt the infrastructural change we need to do. But all the competitors are foreign and rafale exactly isnt the worst..In fact technology wise it is one of the best out there.
But that (logistics) should not be one of the major reason for selecting Rafale if we have a more capable new fighter.


U cant argue that the french are not exactly as fickle minded as American in the case of sanctions.the UK is just a 51 st state of US bro.

Yes they are not. But UK did not stopped us from producing Jaguar though they were one of the developing partner. As far as sanction is concerned I see EFT and Rafale in almost same class.
 
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