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What would have Jinnah thought of Ajmal Kasab and gang, wonders SC

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I think you are far far overestimating the strength of small numbers with receding vociferousness and an overwhelmingly large majority recovering their vociferousness.

Don't forget, most of us are watching this from a significant psychological and political distance. I count myself among the better informed, because of my set of Pakistani friends (outside PDF). some of them are serving faujis, some are former faujis. And even I have trouble reading the tea leaves.

One reason why, in spite of all the insanity, fora like these are invaluable. Tout comprendre, tout pardoner. Except that we still have a long way to go on both sides.
 
Icarus, seriously taking on from your point there. I sincerely think that the key to forming Pakistan's future lies in seeking and providing the answer(s) to the question that I posed earlier;
What does Ajmal Karab (or the commonest man at the bottom of the heap) think about Jinnah?

While Jinnah sahab is a much venerated figure in Pakistan, sadly it seems to be rather symbolic.

1.Does Ajmal Kasab (and others like him) identify with Mr.Jinnah's vision for his nation?
2.Does Ajmal Kasab (and others like him) even able to understand Mr.Jinnah's vision for his nation?

I am afraid; over time even better souls than Ajmal Kasab have become "cloudy" about both those points. It is time indeed to re-visit the basics and spend some time, effort and energy to tackle that. Just my earnest and well-meaning submission.



The biggest obstacle to implementing the Quaid's vision is actually understanding what the Quaid's vision was. Overtime, two different interpretations have evolved of the Quaid's persona one being secular and the other being Islamist. I'm more inclined towards the former but many of my peers align with the latter. In this case, it is true that in most cases the Quaid has become merely a glorified wall hanging for public offices.
 
My friend, I repeat again, the question is about proxies. Using mercenaries and terrorist organizations, hired guns and murderers to forward national objectives.

Why are you so meekishly explaining this as if you are sorry for the loss of whole world.

All powerful countries resort to all kinds of immoral forms to further their interests. This is an undeniable historical fact.

US has used proxies in all habitable continents and even now resort to using such proxies.

Indians used proxies in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Afghanistan and even in Maldives.

The British, the French, the Israelis, the Saudis, many African countries and even Qataris and many other nations have used and are still using proxies.

Pakistanis have used proxies, but what they failed was in control of post operation blow-back and are suffering to an extent. They will learn from their mistakes.

The only problem has been that, the powerful few keep such freedom as their right while denying it to others.

This was brought to particular fore in post 9/11 environment, wherein some proxies were re-named as terrorists, and those left without sponsors were called non-state actors, and still many others were being created and those in existence were being used incognito.

Hence the use of proxies became kosher for the privileged few and for others it became the scourge of supporting of terrorism.

But if you feel that some how the world of nation states will become moral and seek heavenly purity, you are far from reality and do not understand the meaning of real-politik.

This will continue by whatever name one may like to give it, whatever the moral support it may be fueled in, as long as the space exists for its usage it will be used. And the space would always be there either for exploitation or for new creation.
 
Pakistan asked for the Fact Finding Commission to be allowed access to Kasab, a few questions and Hafiz Saeed could have been a hammer drop away from the gallows but India declined. Then the commission settled for a video call but that too was denied and thus in the absence of a direct "Biyan" from the guilty party. Hafiz Saeed walked free. Our judicial system can only be manipulated so much, in the end we can't issue punishments based on pictures of a couple of packets of detergents and a voice call of a man nobody knew.


You really believe that? What could Kasab have said that Hafiz Saeed's lawyers not countered? If that is what you are basing your case on, i.e. some hearsay, then we can quite clearly see where Pakistan went with this line. Your commission was just doing what it was set up to do; obfuscate & pretend. The defence lawyers now want a right of cross examination, an absurd demand on a man sentenced to death. It's not like they would believe anything he said, for all I know he might have said he is Amar Singh. I see you haven't answered why Pakistan has identified not one of the terrorists apart from the one India identified? The evidence has to be found in Pakistan, in Headley's confession to the courts in the U.S., now in Abu Jundal's confession (who btw, your govt tried its damnest to prevent reaching Indian custody), not in this sorry excuse that you insist on trotting out. Any lawyer would laugh at that statement. It would have been easier to track down Kasab's family & see what they said about where their son went to & who sent him & who he spoke of. The same could have been done with the families of the other terrorists if Pakistan so desired. The answer is in the question, unfortunately. Pakistan desired no such thing.

If you expected Pakistanis to be beating their chests in anguish after hearing about the Mumbai Attacks then I can confidently say that you need to watch more news. We lose thousands a year, hundreds at a time but life goes on, have you ever mourned our dead? Have you even seen us mourn our dead? It's a part of our routine now, we have learnt to live in carnage, rather we thrive in it. We extended all possible help to GoI but without their full co-operation, there was only so much we could do.

Were Indian citizens implicated in your losses? Were their deaths planned by an organisation in India? If not, no connection. Your deaths are the results of your dogs turning rabid & going after you. Dogs that you hoped would only respond to your commands. Indians getting bitten by your dogs & you getting bitten by your own are not a moral or a legal equivalent. Your offer of help was a joke, a tragic joke played out on the bodies of the people killed in Mumbai. As I said earlier, the very fact that you seek refuge in such clearly outrageously false excuses reflects the depths that you have fallen to. Others at least have the excuse of not having the requisite intelligence to separate the wheat from the chaff; You, I'm afraid don't qualify there which makes it all the more sad.
 
My Grandfather's family stayed back in Mumbai, their house was burnt down in 47 by our neighbours and they relocated, we were in contact with them until the 70s and last we heard from them, their house had been burnt down again in the 70s and they were relocating to Nagpur. We don't even know what happened to them.

Icarus, my commiserations for that event.
Reminds me of Rescue Ranger whose family has(had) connections to Shimla, and on this forum expressed the desire to visit his family home some time. Nothing will please me more than to meet him at the Border and greet him on his way. Might just happen someday!
 
Mate, excellent postop on proxies!

This will continue by whatever name one may like to give it, whatever the moral support it may be fueled in, as long as the space exists for its usage it will be used. And the space would always be there either for exploitation or for new creation.
 
That's because before WWII, Indians were largely united in the hope that Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose will liberate India with the Azad Hind Fauj. The AHF and Netaji were both very acceptive of muslims that had otherwise become outcastes. Even as late as July 1946, Jinnah was prepared to support a united India through the Cabinet Mission Plan but the Congress had other plans. Partition is done and over with, now what's important is that we learn to live with it as good neighbours.
Congress had just one plan that is democracy. In democracy, majority wins, therefore, Jinnah thought that Muslims would be oppressed (since they were in minority) and that we both were different people. However, it never happened in India.
 
Icarus, seriously taking on from your point there. I sincerely think that the key to forming Pakistan's future lies in seeking and providing the answer(s) to the question that I posed earlier;
What does Ajmal Karab (or the commonest man at the bottom of the heap) think about Jinnah?

While Jinnah sahab is a much venerated figure in Pakistan, sadly it seems to be rather symbolic.

1.Does Ajmal Kasab (and others like him) identify with Mr.Jinnah's vision for his nation?
2.Does Ajmal Kasab (and others like him) even able to understand Mr.Jinnah's vision for his nation?

I am afraid; over time even better souls than Ajmal Kasab have become "cloudy" about both those points. It is time indeed to re-visit the basics and spend some time, effort and energy to tackle that. Just my earnest and well-meaning submission.

but dear do you really thing that all of our population, and i am taking about people on both side of the border, identify the vision of founder of nation?
wasn't Peace the main weapon and agenda of Gandhi? if yes, is it being envisioned by all of India??
You live in India, you know better about all the disturbance in Asam, Gujrat, in NE, in Kashmir, and many other places. It is just a matter of realizing!!
 
48 wasn't even a proper war, many of the people had fought in the same regiments through the entire WWII and there were constant rendezvous between troops from both sides. I'm sure you know the story of the Sikh soldier that came to the Pakistani side to listen to a concert and was escorted back to his post after dinner by Pakistani troops with kheer.

It was like that for years. As late as the 50s, Suhrawardy used to stop over at Calcutta to lunch at Firpo's, and used to invite old friends to join him (some chickened out, and pleaded they would have to take permission from Delhi). In 1961, my parents went to see the battlefield at Waterloo, and stayed with their old friend Iqbal Athar Ali, the Pakistani Ambassador to Belgium. My own first suit was from material gifted at an airport stopover by Kaisar Chacha, K. M. Kaisar of Peking, Chou en Lai and Kissinger fame. Things changed after 65, then changed drastically after 71.
 
You really believe that? What could Kasab have said that Hafiz Saeed's lawyers not countered? If that is what you are basing your case on, i.e. some hearsay, then we can quite clearly see where Pakistan went with this line. Your commission was just doing what it was set up to do; obfuscate & pretend. The defence lawyers now want a right of cross examination, an absurd demand on a man sentenced to death. It's not like they would believe anything he said, for all I know he might have said he is Amar Singh. I see you haven't answered why Pakistan has identified not one of the terrorists apart from the one India identified? The evidence has to be found in Pakistan, in Headley's confession to the courts in the U.S., now in Abu Jundal's confession (who btw, your govt tried its damnest to prevent reaching Indian custody), not in this sorry excuse that you insist on trotting out. Any lawyer would laugh at that statement. It would have been easier to track down Kasab's family & see what they said about where their son went to & who sent him & who he spoke of. The same could have been done with the families of the other terrorists if Pakistan so desired. The answer is in the question, unfortunately. Pakistan desired no such thing.

First of all, your information is outdated. Most of the Mumbai attackers were ID'ed and their families were questioned in this regard. Kasab's own family maintains that they knew nothing about his whereabouts as he had left home some years ago and came back occasionally to hand over some cash to them. As for the interview, the interview would have allowed the commission to confirm that Kasab wasn't being forced into saying what he was. If he had admitted to the charges (in exchange for life imprisonment) and identified his handlers and Hafiz Saeed as his financier, then things would have gone very differently. Pakistan made all possible efforts to resolve the issue and show that they were serious about countering cross-border terrorism. It would have been a great deal of good PR for us but the Indian authorities never granted us the chance. Like I said before, one wonders why the guy from Italy wan't captured. He wasn't being protected by Pakistan was he?

Were Indian citizens implicated in your losses? Were their deaths planned by an organisation in India? If not, no connection. Your deaths are the results of your dogs turning rabid & going after you. Dogs that you hoped would only respond to your commands. Indians getting bitten by your dogs & you getting bitten by your own are not a moral or a legal equivalent. Your offer of help was a joke, a tragic joke played out on the bodies of the people killed in Mumbai. As I said earlier, the very fact that you seek refuge in such clearly outrageously false excuses reflects the depths that you have fallen to. Others at least have the excuse of not having the requisite intelligence to separate the wheat from the chaff; You, I'm afraid don't qualify there which makes it all the more sad.

Playing the "So much more Righteous than You" card? Please, give me a break. You guys have no right to be doing the name calling here your people just as regularly send in spies and saboteurs into our borders. Besides the TTP and BLA that carry your blessings, saboteurs from Kashmir also regularly try crossing over the LoC to Pakistan and I swear handing out candies to children is not their directive. So spare me the hypocrisy and cut the sermon. We have other things to worry about as a nation, 166 people died 4 years ago, it's sad but thousands more have died in Pakistan since and we couldn't care less who's fault it is, point is that we have our own mess to take care of and we can't spare the time to play "Court Room" with you guys when drawing out is all you aim to do.

Icarus, my commiserations for that event.
Reminds me of Rescue Ranger whose family has(had) connections to Shimla, and on this forum expressed the desire to visit his family home some time. Nothing will please me more than to meet him at the Border and greet him on his way. Might just happen someday!

I too wish that is possible but I fear that they may be dead. Even if they are alive, I am banned from entering India and have no clue as to where I can find my lost family.
 
Relevant - the Pakistani terrorists in Mumbai shot dead some 50 Indian Muslims dead, but when at Taj they captured two Muslims from Turkey, they let them go free.

Even if we accept the fundamentalist interpretation of Jinnah, even then he would despise the scum. Interestingly the same LET scum is a creation and pet of Pakistani establishment.

So the real question is, what do the real powerholders in Pakistan think of the Mujahir Shia Jinnah?
 
I too wish that is possible but I fear that they may be dead. Even if they are alive, I am banned from entering India and have no clue as to where I can find my lost family.
Why banned Icarus? Mate, you can take NOC from GHQ, takes approximately 3 weeks - or at least it used to!
 
so many of you media intellectual told this few time on TV...

Man the media lives on selling on people's insecurities. On OBL's first death anniversary the media was reporting how an elderly man had come and lit candles as a sign of his devotion to OBL. When the man was later questioned, he said that he had lit candles and prayed for OBL's forgiveness because he had been a sinful soul and no one would be praying for him. His intentions were altogether different and quite noble in my opinion. Trust me, I live in the same country, we have suffered enough to know how it feels to lose close ones to terrorism, nobody celebrates it.

Congress had just one plan that is democracy. In democracy, majority wins, therefore, Jinnah thought that Muslims would be oppressed (since they were in minority) and that we both were different people. However, it never happened in India.

Jinnah was prepared as late as July 1946 to accept a United India but there were other forces at work too. Some put attribute the partition to Hindu aggression, others to muslim insecurity and some to British divide and rule policy. I believe it may have been an amalgamation of the three.

Relevant - the Pakistani terrorists in Mumbai shot dead some 50 Indian Muslims dead, but when at Taj they captured two Muslims from Turkey, they let them go free.

Even if we accept the fundamentalist interpretation of Jinnah, even then he would despise the scum. Interestingly the same LET scum is a creation and pet of Pakistani establishment.

So the real question is, what do the real powerholders in Pakistan think of the Mujahir Shia Jinnah?


LeT was a strategic asset in the 90s. Now they are a rogue entity that is detrimental to our interests. It's karma I guess. 80s was your bad time, now's ours.

Why banned Icarus? Mate, you can take NOC from GHQ, takes approximately 3 weeks - or at least it used to!


Not without any official business in India, plus I'm Intelligence.
 
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