What role could PAF have played in the Kargil war??

[SQ8]

This thread and general conversation resembles that of the situation on facebook after that Gorilla was killed.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You obviously dont know how many commemorations there are for those Shaheeds once the campaign ended and your 10 times larger regular forces were taught a lesson they'd never forget




re-read my post, thick-head. The remains of those aircrafts were inside Pakistani territory so it's quite irrelevant. They were shot down and the battle preparedness of the air defense units on the ground was demonstrated.

while the inclusion of the AF helped india, i dont see it as a game-changer given the terrain and that in the absence of use of LGBs any bombing missions were mostly futile and counter productive in that they exposed the indians to danger especially putting troops on the ground via choppers (target practice for Pakistan)



Oh Joseph....you're starting to sound like that tabloid journalist pranab goswami....a

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Insanity in this thread would be defined as trying to discuss facts with baboons who use bold characters and modify the font size to get their half intelligible "points" across

at the end of the day and regardless of the viewpoints of you or your malnourished dehati fanboys here - Kargil was a " limited conflict " in a limited area - not by any chance a war , it had to be done quietly , hence no declaration of war or overt use of assets such as air force (which was affected at any rate by the sanctions) ... Why warn and alert the enemy ? ... Did China warn of war when it grabbed Aksai Chin in '62

This thread and general conversation resembles that of the situation on facebook after that Gorilla was killed.

i think natural habitat for half the clowns across the border this forum attracts - would be the local zoo

 

[Stephen Cohen]

that they exposed the indians to danger especially putting troops on the ground via choppers (target practice for Pakistan)

We did NOT Air drop even A single soldier

You think that we will Air drop soldiers when we know your guys are sitting with Stingers

Helicopters if any would have been used later for CAS- EVAC after the peaks had been
sanitised

 

[Joe Shearer]

Insanity in this thread would be defined as trying to discuss facts with baboons who use bold characters and modify the font size to get their half intelligible "points" across

at the end of the day and regardless of the viewpoints of you or your malnourished dehati fanboys here - Kargil was a " limited conflict " in a limited area - not by any chance a war , it had to be done quietly , hence no declaration of war or overt use of assets such as air force (which was affected at any rate by the sanctions) ... Why warn and alert the enemy ? ... Did China warn of war when it grabbed Aksai Chin in '62



i think natural habitat for half the clowns across the border this forum attracts - would be the local zoo

Finished with logic, have we?

 

[MilSpec]

Oh man, Joe is having a field day here.

 

[John Doe]

I swear, this one self declared Ex-Military professional makes statements that give a bad name to real Pak.Army professionals!!!

I once posted some article that was in plain english, and it made no sense to this "Professional"

 

[MadDog]

man, I am not sure if the people who lived in indus valley were hindus... I mean they were most likely not hindus if you go by history strictly, there is no evidence.
Anyway, you are digressing from what you said, my assertion is nuclear blackmail works upto a point(pakistan's own territorial integrity is not violated) but not when pakistan tries to invade part of any country. Even afgans wont take that sh*t nor will Iranians. Why do you think Indians will do. I mean you really think Indian leadership will say oh they got nukes, tough luck, let them occupy whatever bit they are on, coz even if we nuke all of them they will destroy all hindus. Thats not how our leadership thinks, I am pretty sure you know that.

Christianity started from Middle East today most of the christians are in Europe and North/South America. Judaism started in Middle East, today most Jews are Ashkenazi European Jews. Islam started in Middle East, today most muslims are Non Arabs, almost 70%. Bhuddism started in India, today most of them are in South East Asia, with almost non existent Buddhists in India. Religions have changed in different regions at different times, Europeans used to be pagans worshipping bones of their dead before becoming christian, Arabs were worshipping idols before becoming muslims, Iranians were Zorastrians before becoming muslims (majority of them), In the region around River Indus, Aryans brought Hinduism , along side Hinduism, there existed Bhuddists in the North and North West ( later on in the form of Gandhara Civilization). So no one is denying that the ancestors of Pakistanis were hindus or bhuddists (for northwestern regions & Afghanistan). Religions have changed throughout history as I have said, it would be stupid to cling to the past and say your ancestors were followers of so and so religion. Yes, that is part of the amazing history of this region, and Pakistanis are proud to be inheritors of Indus valley civilization, Gandhara civilization and Mehrghar civilization.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Or ran out of food, or got in the way of a laser bomb, or was blown up while trying to reach ammo and food to their comrades, or while turning away from such a futile effort. War is hell.

Ya, sure....or get stuck by the fury of Dark Kahn, or the Lightning Bolt of Raiden, the ultimate gods of Mortal Kombat. I mean the possibilities are endless.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We did NOT Air drop even A single soldier

You think that we will Air drop soldiers when we know your guys are sitting with Stingers

Helicopters if any would have been used later for CAS- EVAC after the peaks had been
sanitised

Christianity started from Middle East today most of the christians are in Europe and North/South America. Judaism started in Middle East, today most Jews are Ashkenazi European Jews. Islam started in Middle East, today most muslims are Non Arabs, almost 70%. Bhuddism started in India, today most of them are in South East Asia, with almost non existent Buddhists in India. Religions have changed in different regions at different times, Europeans used to be pagans worshipping bones of their dead before becoming christian, Arabs were worshipping idols before becoming muslims, Iranians were Zorastrians before becoming muslims (majority of them), In the region around River Indus, Aryans brought Hinduism , along side Hinduism, there existed Bhuddists in the North and North West ( later on in the form of Gandhara Civilization). So no one is denying that the ancestors of Pakistanis were hindus or bhuddists (for northwestern regions & Afghanistan). Religions have changed throughout history as I have said, it would be stupid to cling to the past and say your ancestors were followers of so and so religion. Yes, that is part of the amazing history of this region, and Pakistanis are proud to be inheritors of Indus valley civilization, Gandhara civilization and Mehrghar civilization.

Excellent term paper, or the beginnings of one, anyway.

Errr, what's it doing here?

Ya, sure....or get stuck by the fury of Dark Kahn, or the Lightning Bolt of Raiden, the ultimate gods of Mortal Kombat. I mean the possibilities are endless.

Infinite. Welcome to the three-ring circus.

 

[dadeechi]

The sad part is India has learnt nothing from the Kargil debacle.

 

[Genghis khan1]

I swear, this one self declared Ex-Military professional makes statements that give a bad name to real Pak.Army professionals!!!

I once posted some article that was in plain english, and it made no sense to this "Professional"

I served in military and been to combat, this makes me a combat veteran, but I never craved for this professional or veteran title. But I can tell you one thing, you don't have to be smart to flip burgers in military. Apparently, some of these Mods, professional and so on have no F'in clue what they are talking about. People ranks are based on number of BS comment -socializing- instead defense related or quality of comments. Girls gets wholesale positive ratings, but than again, it's an open public forum, and not that I am gonna get paid for my professional advise or rank. So who cares.

 

[Iggy]

Insanity in this thread would be defined as trying to discuss facts with baboons who use bold characters and modify the font size to get their half intelligible "points" across

at the end of the day and regardless of the viewpoints of you or your malnourished dehati fanboys here - Kargil was a " limited conflict " in a limited area - not by any chance a war , it had to be done quietly , hence no declaration of war or overt use of assets such as air force (which was affected at any rate by the sanctions) ... Why warn and alert the enemy ? ... Did China warn of war when it grabbed Aksai Chin in '62



i think natural habitat for half the clowns across the border this forum attracts - would be the local zoo

Almost all of the claims made by so called Indian fanboys were supported by neutral links where as your claim were supported by the usual mockery of " I personally know this".. tell me who is the baboon here? Heck you cant even name the journalist correctly..

 

[Hellfire]

believe whatever you want, little man.....doesnt change the facts about a conflict i am very familiar with. I doubt you were even a teenager when it took place

I totally agree, it does not change the facts. And I wish I didn't know about the facts ... at least you would be having a free run with your nonsense and upholding the hallmark of PA of distorting history and facts to try and create an aura of superiority ...

I don't know which kind of familiarity you have achieved, the bull crap that PA has been feeding its population about Kargil and all the wars where you have, without hesitancy, simply surrendered your political objectives?

.... and your assumption of my being a teenager in the duration is exactly when John Travolta would say "assumption is the mother of all fcuk ups!"

Like I told @Windjammer the other day, do not assume that every person here is a keyboard warrior and has not been on the ground ..... there are enough people here who will call you out for lying about facts.

I told you the specific time when we lost the peaks ..... and I have given you one indication of the area where we still have not been able to align the area ..... specifically.

go have some gau-sharbat and cool off a lil

And you, sir, go and smoke the 'cigarettes' your troops get in high altitudes .... lol

both were shot down....the story of "technical fault" or "flameout" is just indian peddled rubbish. We kept the remains of both aircrafts (what's left of them)

Yeah when you shoot an aircraft it loses its momentum immediately and is supposed to fall to the ground at the exact spot below it right?

Man, seriously ... your tag should be first line of nonsense!!!!

You obviously dont know how many commemorations there are for those Shaheeds once the campaign ended and your 10 times larger regular forces were taught a lesson they'd never forget

See? When you make such statements which contravene the tenets of mountain warfare in high altitude with limited axes of attack .. then one does come to know you for what you are - first line of nonsense

I am yet to see you speak like a professional or even for that matter give an argument constructed on facts ... instead, you have been persistently talking like a novice!

No it was the capitulation of nawaz sharif when he went helter skelter to Washington DC -- and with a track record of previous and subsequent treachery he was unceremoniously dismissed. As I said already your soldiers were rotting corpses in DROVES it was regrettably the PM and the govt. that couldnt with-stand the pressure from GOTUS. Just the mention the name Dras Sector to your veteran jawans and they'll be shitting their dhotis

LOL ... oh shit I forgot ..... we saw that happening to your troops inspite of the KHAKHIs when 8 JAT took the highest peak near your Zulu complex along the Gurais-Drass overlooking the glaciers!! Ours anyways don't wear dhotis maybe you have some form of post traumatic stress disorder for you have misplaced identities and have forgotten that you even got your nether regions kicked by loosing a feature at 19000 ft in Gurais which was overlooking the Tilel valley and you had the feature since 1948!!

Man you are funny!!!!!

again as the navy says "very good, carry on"

@Joe Shearer sorry .. he was just too funny ... so butted in .. am bailing out, now time to listen to Rahul Gandhi .. they both are competition for each other ....!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

A couple of points before leaving the thread:

1. How many IAF aircraft were damaged by enemy fire?
   
   Four, in total; one Canberra, one MiG 21, one MiG 27, one helicopter, a Mi 17.
   
   "Less than a week before the start of Operation Vijay, on May 21, the IAF had launched a Canberra PR57 from 106 Squadron to conduct a reconnaissance of the besieged area that overlooked highway NH1A and the adjacent town of Kargil. While descending to 22,000 feet just two miles from the LoC, which put the aircraft as low as 4,000 feet above the highest ridgelines, the Canberra sustained a direct hit in its right engine by what was later determined to have been a Chinese-made Anza infrared surface-to-air missile.
   
   Read more at: http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war#
   
   "During the second day of surface attack operations, the IAF lost two fighters in close succession."
   
   "The first, a MiG-27 from 9 Squadron, experienced an engine failure while coming off a target after its pilot had just conducted a successful two-pass attack with 80mm rockets and 30mm cannon fire on one of the enemy’s main supply dumps. The ensuing in-flight emergency resulted in the pilot ejecting safely after several unsuccessful airstart attempts, only to be captured by the Pakistani intruders almost as soon as he hit the ground.50Air Chief Marshal Tipnis later reported that the pilot had fired his rockets well outside the operating envelope stipulated for the weapon, causing the engine to flame out. The sudden loss of power in the thin Himalayan air could have resulted from rocket exhaust gas having been ingested through the engine’s air inlets on either side of the aircraft. (The MiG-27 was flying at an altitude well above that at which the rockets had been cleared to be fired.)"
   
   Read more at: http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war#
   
   So much for the buffoonish comments of an obviously uninformed man who was too arrogant to learn.
   
   "The second fighter loss, a MiG-21 from 17 Squadron flying top cover for the strikers, sustained an infrared surface-to-air missile hit while its pilot was flying over the terrain at low level to assist in the search for the downed MiG-27 pilot. The pilot, Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja, also succeeded in ejecting safely but was executed shortly after he was captured following his landing. His body was subsequently returned bearing fatal bullet wounds and clear signs of brutalization."
   
   Read more at: http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war#
   
   "On the third day of air operations, an IAF Mi-17 helicopter was downed, again by an enemy shoulder-fired Stinger surface-to-air missile while conducting a low-level attack. The ill-fated helicopter had been the last in a four-ship flight of armed Mi-17s flying in trail formation and was the only aircraft in the flight that had not been configured with a self-protection flare dispenser to draw away any incoming heat-seeking missiles."
   
   Read more at: http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war#
   
   
2. How many aircraft were lost to enemy fire?
   
   Two; the MiG 21 flown by the ill-fated Sqn. Ldr. Ahuja and the Mi 17 chopper.
   
   
3. Were these the only attacks made on IAF aircraft by ground forces?
   
   No.
   In all, enemy forces fired more than 100 surface-to-air missiles at IAF aircraft throughout the conflict. After the service’s first three days of combat operations, however, not a single one of its aircraft was downed or sustained battle damage.
   
   
4. Was the IAF using smart bombs from the outset?
   
   No. But not very many 'iron' bombs were used.
   
   "...the IAF dropped only around 500 general-purpose bombs in all during the seventy-four-day campaign, none of which were released indiscriminately and the majority of which were deemed to have been effective against their assigned targets. As Air Marshal Patney recalled in this regard, “after every mission, the army would give us the results of the attack. In about 70 percent of the missions, we were told ‘bombs on target."
   
   Read more at: http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war#
   
   
5. What was the use of smart bombs?
   
   Singh, Himalayan Eagles: History of the Indian Air Force, Volume III: World Air Power, 125, reported that the IAF delivered a total of nine laser-guided bombs against enemy targets during the Kargil war, eight by Mirage 2000Hs and one by a Jaguar. The air commander for the campaign, however, distinctly recalls that only two were expended in toto, both against the target complex on Tiger Hill. In his words, “we could not find a suitable target for more such attacks. For the more spreadout interdiction targets, well-directed 1,000-pound [unguided] bombs were the weapon of choice.” (E-mail communication to the author by Air Marshal Vinod Patney, IAF [ret.], August 2, 2012.) Either way, what matters most here is not the total count, but the fact that the use of laser-guided bombs during the Kargil campaign was a significant and militarily effective combat first for the IAF.
   
   Read more at: http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20/airpower-at-18-000-indian-air-force-in-kargil-war#
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

I totally agree, it does not change the facts. And I wish I didn't know about the facts ... at least you would be having a free run with your nonsense and upholding the hallmark of PA of distorting history and facts to try and create an aura of superiority ...

I don't know which kind of familiarity you have achieved, the bull crap that PA has been feeding its population about Kargil and all the wars where you have, without hesitancy, simply surrendered your political objectives?

.... and your assumption of my being a teenager in the duration is exactly when John Travolta would say "assumption is the mother of all fcuk ups!"

Like I told @Windjammer the other day, do not assume that every person here is a keyboard warrior and has not been on the ground ..... there are enough people here who will call you out for lying about facts.

I told you the specific time when we lost the peaks ..... and I have given you one indication of the area where we still have not been able to align the area ..... specifically.




And you, sir, go and smoke the 'cigarettes' your troops get in high altitudes .... lol



Yeah when you shoot an aircraft it loses its momentum immediately and is supposed to fall to the ground at the exact spot below it right?

Man, seriously ... your tag should be first line of nonsense!!!!



See? When you make such statements which contravene the tenets of mountain warfare in high altitude with limited axes of attack .. then one does come to know you for what you are - first line of nonsense

I am yet to see you speak like a professional or even for that matter give an argument constructed on facts ... instead, you have been persistently talking like a novice!



LOL ... oh shit I forgot ..... we saw that happening to your troops inspite of the KHAKHIs when 8 JAT took the highest peak near your Zulu complex along the Gurais-Drass overlooking the glaciers!! Ours anyways don't wear dhotis maybe you have some form of post traumatic stress disorder for you have misplaced identities and have forgotten that you even got your nether regions kicked by loosing a feature at 19000 ft in Gurais which was overlooking the Tilel valley and you had the feature since 1948!!

Man you are funny!!!!!

again as the navy says "very good, carry on"

@Joe Shearer sorry .. he was just too funny ... so butted in .. am bailing out, now time to listen to Rahul Gandhi .. they both are competition for each other ....!!!

@hellfire

Very well argued.

Just think if we were to lock the two together in a room....<sigh!>