What option does Turkey have if CAATSA blocks GE F110 engine sale to Turkey?

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

I guess JF-17 is out of the question because China will block it because of Turkey's support of East Turkestan independence. Europe has 2 projects. Britain and Sweden's Tempest. Germany, France, Spain's New Generation Fighter. But neither project needs Turkey as a partner due to Turkey lack of expertise and lack of funds. That leaves only Russia's Su-57. Which I guess is expensive as hell but worth it because it's the only production plane that has 4 AESA giving 360 degrees coverage so no need for AWAC. What do you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Generation_Fighter

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

@500 @vostok @Nein @GIANTsasquatch

 

[Nein]

Its a nice jet fighter. If Turkey goes with the SU57 i dont think its bad.

Russians do make some great jet fighters.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Its a nice jet fighter. If Turkey goes with the SU57 i dont think its bad.

Russians do make some great jet fighters.

Yup. Starting with MiG-9. Turkey has no experience making a jet plane, or any plane for that matter.

 

[Test7]

Yup. Starting with MiG-9. Turkey has no experience making a jet plane, or any plane for that matter.

You're commenting again without knowledge. Before you comment on a topic, do a research on that topic. That makes you look funny and ignorant.

Turkish Aerospace manufactured and delivered a total of 152 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 30 and 40 configurations at the Turkish Aerospace's facilities to the Turkish Air Force (TurAF) under the Peace Onyx I Program between the years 1987-1995. The program covers a total of 160 F-16s, eight of which were produced in Forth-Worth, USA, and delivered directly to TurAF.

Under this program, Turkish Aerospace manufactured 70% of the airframe of the F-16 aircraft including aft, center fuselages and wings.
https://www.tai.com.tr/en/product/peace-onyx-i-program

Turkish Aerospace produced 46 F-16s for the Egyptian Air Force between 1993 and 1995 under the agreement signed between the Governments of Turkey, USA and the Arab Republic of Egypt.
https://www.tai.com.tr/en/product/egypt-f-16-program

As the result of the tender opened by Pakistan Air Force regarding the modernization of 41 F-16 Aircraft, Turkish Aerospace has been selected as the contractor.

The contract has been signed on 29 June 2009.

The modernization activities started in the last quarter of 2010 by receiving first 3 F-16 to Turkish Aerospace's facilities.
https://www.tai.com.tr/en/product/paf-f-16-modernization

By the way, I'm not even talking about civil aircrafts, helicopters, cargo plane projects...

 

[Trango Towers]

Yup. Starting with MiG-9. Turkey has no experience making a jet plane, or any plane for that matter.

You don't have experience makinv an egg until u decide to learn to make it. Turkey will be fine and you negative post will continue

 

[Test7]

You don't have experience makinv an egg until u decide to learn to make it. Turkey will be fine and you negative post will continue

Arabs using fake flags are here for propaganda, bro...There are a few more trolls like this.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

You're commenting again without knowledge. Before you comment on a topic, do a research on that topic. That makes you look funny and ignorant.

Turkish Aerospace manufactured and delivered a total of 152 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 30 and 40 configurations at the Turkish Aerospace's facilities to the Turkish Air Force (TurAF) under the Peace Onyx I Program between the years 1987-1995. The program covers a total of 160 F-16s, eight of which were produced in Forth-Worth, USA, and delivered directly to TurAF.

Under this program, Turkish Aerospace manufactured 70% of the airframe of the F-16 aircraft including aft, center fuselages and wings.
https://www.tai.com.tr/en/product/peace-onyx-i-program

Turkish Aerospace produced 46 F-16s for the Egyptian Air Force between 1993 and 1995 under the agreement signed between the Governments of Turkey, USA and the Arab Republic of Egypt.
https://www.tai.com.tr/en/product/egypt-f-16-program

As the result of the tender opened by Pakistan Air Force regarding the modernization of 41 F-16 Aircraft, Turkish Aerospace has been selected as the contractor.

The contract has been signed on 29 June 2009.

The modernization activities started in the last quarter of 2010 by receiving first 3 F-16 to Turkish Aerospace's facilities.
https://www.tai.com.tr/en/product/paf-f-16-modernization

By the way, I'm not even talking about civil aircrafts, helicopters, cargo plane projects...

Turkey assembles te plane. Only some part of the airframe is made in Turkey. This airframe manufacturing is not a critical job. The real complexity is in writing FBW codes, making radars, jet engines, avionics, fire control, HUD, EW suite, SPJ etc. Making an airframe is something even WW2 countries could do. It is these other parts, mainly of electronics and mechatronics that is the real complication.

Turkey only makes trainer aircraft but that is turboprop, not jet or turbofan powered.

 

[Trango Towers]

Arabs using fake flags are here for propaganda, bro...There are a few more trolls like this.

They said that about pak jf17...it was a tin can. A mig 21, paint job..and then su30mki and mig21 bison got a jf17 kiss of death

 

[Oublious]

Turkey assembles te plane. Only some part of the airframe is made in Turkey. This airframe manufacturing is not a critical job. The real complexity is in writing FBW codes, making radars, jet engines, avionics, fire control, HUD, EW suite, SPJ etc. Making an airframe is something even WW2 countries could do. It is these other parts, mainly of electronics and mechatronics that is the real complication.

Turkey only makes trainer aircraft but that is turboprop, not jet or turbofan powered.

We are not mighty india, 30 years for a tank, 15 years for a ship and 20 years for a missile. And 50 years for a fighter what still in development....

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkey assembles te plane. Only some part of the airframe is made in Turkey. This airframe manufacturing is not a critical job. The real complexity is in writing FBW codes, making radars, jet engines, avionics, fire control, HUD, EW suite, SPJ etc. Making an airframe is something even WW2 countries could do. It is these other parts, mainly of electronics and mechatronics that is the real complication.

Turkey only makes trainer aircraft but that is turboprop, not jet or turbofan powered.

Making an airframe is not an issue indeed If you take an ancient aircraft as an example but Designing a stealth airframe and producing most complex section with composite materials is an issue. Design engineering is the area where Turkey took help from BAE.

F-16 avionic modernization, AESA radar programs, F16 EW self protection and mission computer developments that a prototype F-16 equipped with most of them, is flying with this upgrade solution. It is a test-bed for ongoing HürJet. In that way, HürJet program that first flight is planned to be carried out in 2022 will be the final qualification for Turkish engineering studies before passing into 5th generation TF-X. All steps are taken to get matured in order to solve the problems of more difficult engineering activities in supersonic speeds. The experiences gained from TF-X studies which 400+ engineers are working on initial design phase at present, is being transfered to a supersonic stealth unmanned combat aircraft program simultaneously. What I mean All those programs have natural links among eachother to reach bigger targets. Those are the most difficult examination of Turkish engineers which is working totally on supersonic airframes in many different programs and Turkey is going to have thousands of qualified engineering army for supersonic airfrafts thanks to TF-X and HürJet program. It is not something like Turkey woke up a sunny, happy summer day in 2015 and decided to develop a competitive stealth fighter jet from scratch while drinking a cup of coffee. There are serious background behind the scene for the people who have a curious and brilliant minds to see the bigger frame.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Making an airframe is not an issue indeed If you take an ancient aircraft as an example but Designing a stealth airframe and producing most complex section with composite materials is an issue. Design engineering is the area where Turkey took help from BAE

Turkey as of now doesn't have the ability to design and manufacture supersonic airframe. The F35 manufacturing is just partial manufacturing of select airframe parts but not entire airframe. So, in current situation, Turkey doesn't have the ability to substitute USA items.

F-16 avionic modernization, AESA radar programs, F16 EW self protection and mission computer developments that a prototype F-16 equipped with most of them, is flying with this upgrade solution. It is a test-bed for ongoing HürJet. In that way, HürJet program that first flight is planned to be carried out in 2022 will be the final qualification for Turkish engineering studies before passing into 5th generation TF-X. All steps are taken to get matured in order to solve the problems of more difficult engineering activities in supersonic speeds. The experiences gained from TF-X studies which 400+ engineers are working on initial design phase at present, is being transfered to a supersonic stealth unmanned combat aircraft program simultaneously. What I mean All those programs have natural links among eachother to reach bigger targets. Those are the most difficult examination of Turkish engineers which is working totally on supersonic airframes in many different programs and Turkey is going to have thousands of qualified engineering army for supersonic airfrafts thanks to TF-X and HürJet program. It is not something like Turkey woke up a sunny, happy summer day in 2015 and decided to develop a competitive stealth fighter jet from scratch while drinking a cup of coffee. There are serious background behind the scene for the people who have a curious and brilliant minds to see the bigger frame.

The upgrades of F16 also were from USA. The radar of F16 upgrade was imported and assembled by Turkey. The engine upgrade was also import. The codes are also USA supplied.

Turkey is just starting from scratch. I am not saying that Turkey will not have indigenous jet. But it will not be till 2030 that Turkey will get it. 5th generation jet can't come before 2040-45 as it ia first important to develop the manpower and technology for basic 3.5 generation plane before going to 5th generation.

This involves development of technology like Radar, FBW codes, semiconductor chips, electronics, turbofan engines, supersonic structure, materials for radomes etc. All of these are highly time consuming. The main time is not only for design but also for development of core technology.

As of now, if Turkey wants to defend, it must have USA arms. So, Turkey has been tied down by USA dependence

 

[Test7]

Turkey as of now doesn't have the ability to design and manufacture supersonic airframe. The F35 manufacturing is just partial manufacturing of select airframe parts but not entire airframe. So, in current situation, Turkey doesn't have the ability to substitute USA items.


The upgrades of F16 also were from USA. The radar of F16 upgrade was imported and assembled by Turkey. The engine upgrade was also import. The codes are also USA supplied.

Turkey is just starting from scratch. I am not saying that Turkey will not have indigenous jet. But it will not be till 2030 that Turkey will get it. 5th generation jet can't come before 2040-45 as it ia first important to develop the manpower and technology for basic 3.5 generation plane before going to 5th generation.

This involves development of technology like Radar, FBW codes, semiconductor chips, electronics, turbofan engines, supersonic structure, materials for radomes etc. All of these are highly time consuming. The main time is not only for design but also for development of core technology.

As of now, if Turkey wants to defend, it must have USA arms. So, Turkey has been tied down by USA dependence

Turkey is working with BAE Systems on this project. Time will show us whether everything will be possible or not. Even if the TF-X is not the fifth generation, making an aircraft like the F-15 SE would be a success.

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkey as of now doesn't have the ability to design and manufacture supersonic airframe. The F35 manufacturing is just partial manufacturing of select airframe parts but not entire airframe. So, in current situation, Turkey doesn't have the ability to substitute USA items.


The upgrades of F16 also were from USA. The radar of F16 upgrade was imported and assembled by Turkey. The engine upgrade was also import. The codes are also USA supplied.

Turkey is just starting from scratch. I am not saying that Turkey will not have indigenous jet. But it will not be till 2030 that Turkey will get it. 5th generation jet can't come before 2040-45 as it ia first important to develop the manpower and technology for basic 3.5 generation plane before going to 5th generation.

This involves development of technology like Radar, FBW codes, semiconductor chips, electronics, turbofan engines, supersonic structure, materials for radomes etc. All of these are highly time consuming. The main time is not only for design but also for development of core technology.

As of now, if Turkey wants to defend, it must have USA arms. So, Turkey has been tied down by USA dependence

Partly true but some section of your analyse is totally false. I will try to correct the items step by step! We know our defficiency so acting accordingly.

• Turkey doesn’t have ability of design and develop a supersonic airframe that can be ranked as 5th generation so TAI teamed up with BAE on initial design phase. TAI doesn’t have a supersonic wind tunnel to test the mock up in order to see the features of aerodynamic flow of fuselage so building up a new and most modern one. In the same time, BAE open its supersonic wind tunnel facilities to test TFX. TAI didn’t have a special software which help engineers to design a futuristic airframe so made a deal with Dassault to get licence of their software. To achieve all design and testing, A super computer with 10,000 core capacity have been ordered and detail/initial design activities have been carried out in there.
• F-35 mid section manufacturing capability is about high tech production maturity of TAI. It doesn’t make TAI a super designer of a stealth fighter. Noone claimed that TAI learned to design a stealth fighter thanks to F35 but We underline that TAI achieved manufacturing process of a complicated composite section of a stealth fighter. This will ease the hand of TAI when TFX passed into prototype production phase.
• You have mixed F16 upgrades with eachother. F-16 CCIP and F16 Ozgur is two different upgrade solution. CCIP is the one TAI assembled the components purchased from US. Özgür is the one which aims to integrate totally domeatic component and sensors including AESA radar to an F-16 which will be used as test bed for further developments such as HürJet and TFX.
• Electronics, radars, missiles, supersonic structure, semiconductors have been under development and production since years and their development will proceed for vital programs. TF-X will have an embeded E/O, E/W and SAR capability inside the fuselage. All those subsystems is also under development phase.

F16 Özgür

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Turkey is working with BAE Systems on this project. Time will show us whether everything will be possible or not. Even if the TF-X is not the fifth generation, making an aircraft like the F-15 SE would be a success.

Turkey doesn’t have ability of design and develop a supersonic airframe that can be ranked as 5th generation so TAI teamed up with BAE on initial design phase. TAI doesn’t have a supersonic wind tunnel to test the mock up in order to see the features of aerodynamic flow of fuselage so building up a new and most modern one. In the same time, BAE open its supersonic wind tunnel facilities to test TFX. TAI didn’t have a special software which help engineers to design a futuristic airframe so made a deal with Dassault to get licence of their software. To achieve all design and testing, A super computer with 10,000 core capacity have been ordered and detail/initial design activities have been carried out in there.

BAE is UK company. They are highly unreliable and act just like USA. India has had experience with them in Kargil war. They will never help anyone in technology. They will only promise help and then drag the negotiations for long periods of time and cause delays. You can see how BAE has dragged the negotiations for engine and Erdogan had to give deadline last year.

Don't keep expectations from any western country for technology. They are number 1 frauds and only take everything and give only lipservice.

Electronics, radars, missiles, supersonic structure, semiconductors have been under development and production since years and their development will proceed for vital programs. TF-X will have an embeded E/O, E/W and SAR capability inside the fuselage. All those subsystems is also under development phase.

Can you give me source of semiconductor chipset of Turkey? What node size lithography is it using? 180nm, 90nm? Semiconductor is a very difficult area and requires lot of R&D. It is the most difficult of all the technology.

F-35 mid section manufacturing capability is about high tech production maturity of TAI. It doesn’t make TAI a super designer of a stealth fighter. Noone claimed that TAI learned to design a stealth fighter thanks to F35 but We underline that TAI achieved manufacturing process of a complicated composite section of a stealth fighter. This will ease the hand of TAI when TFX passed into prototype production phase.

Yes, it is a beginning for Turkey.

You have mixed F16 upgrades with eachother. F-16 CCIP and F16 Ozgur is two different upgrade solution. CCIP is the one TAI assembled the components purchased from US. Özgür is the one which aims to integrate totally domeatic component and sensors including AESA radar to an F-16 which will be used as test bed for further developments such as HürJet and TFX.

Hmm... Good idea to use known platform as test bed.