What led to the failure of project Azm?

[R2D2]

Bandook for you

https://twitter.com/x/status/1619213330698375170

Nice Bandook but I think smaller bore is used these days.

 

[Erieye]

@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Muhammad Saftain Anjum @FuturePAF A model at the new research facility, looks similar to what was shown in the PAF video

 

[Erieye]

TAI and Baykar listed as part of international partners, but to what extent, is unknown. Likely very minimal interaction and work offloading

 

[TheSolution]

View attachment 914641
@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Muhammad Saftain Anjum @FuturePAF A model at the new research facility, looks similar to what was shown in the PAF video

Looks like the YF-23 a little bit

View attachment 914655
TAI and Baykar listed as part of international partners, but to what extent, is unknown. Likely very minimal interaction and work offloading

Second one is Siber Koza that is also a Turkish cyber security company

 

[Corax]

Looks like the YF-23 a little bit


Second one is Siber Koza that is also a Turkish cyber security company

Not a bit, it is the YF-23. Someone either has a sense of humour, or they are very lazy, just like using an image of the Gripen in the presentation.

 

[TheSolution]

Not a bit, it is the YF-23. Someone either has a sense of humour, or they are very lazy, just like using an image of the Gripen in the presentation.

Probably true

But there is another model in a promotional video which looks similar and has canards, the picture is blurry so I can't tell if there are canards on it

But you're probably correct

 

[Corax]

An interview I found, if anyone's interested

Partially I feel from watching this they realised Azm was totally unrealistic and have changed their plans to building an ecosystem

There is mention of collaboration with Turkish companies and other local companies.

Perhaps a change in mindset towards a positive direction?

Skip to Air Chief speech from about 1:42:00

I think the key points made by Sannia Abdullah are quite important, at around the 50min mark. I think PAF's approach is not to reinvent the wheel, but to gain a critical base for designing and production.

The main priority for the PAF, given how it has historically faced sanctions at critical stages in time, is to have a sanction-proof design/production supply chain. For example, rather than pouring immense resources into trying to design and develop a high performance fighter engine, which would take an immense amount of time, those same resources would be better suited to designing platforms to meet the PAF's requirements, and filling in the critical components from places such as Turkey and/or China.

Of note is that this is only now viable given where China in particular has advanced to. If you look back at the history of the JF-17 for example, during its early stages, the PAF were keen to incorporate Western radar, avionics, and weapons, especially French systems, and I think there was even talk of using the Snecma M88. However, over time, as the Chinese developed and improved their capability, the PAF had more confidence in using critical components from China, rather than their historical leaning on Western systems. Another good example is the PAF willing to use Chinese engines in the J-10 rather than Russian engines.

Where the JF-17 has been very useful for the PAF is to learn how to design and develop an airframe, especially from the conceptual and detail design onwards, as well as further CFD and wind tunnel refinement. Remember when sanctions impacted the development of the JF-17, and the then ACM, Mushaf Ali Mir, made the critical decision of decoupling the airframe development from the radar/avionics/weapons, which meant that rather than a protracted development timeline, the airframe could be developed, while the latest avionics and weapons could then be integrated, rather than fixing the avionics/weapons package from an earlier time that would have already been outdated. It's this approach that has led to a fairly easy and rapid increase in capability for the JF-17, from Block I to Block III.

And I think people are being way too inpatient to say Azm has failed. I mean what were you expecting, a fully built prototype in 5 years?!!

 

[Erieye]

I think the key points made by Sannia Abdullah are quite important, at around the 50min mark. I think PAF's approach is not to reinvent the wheel, but to gain a critical base for designing and production.

The main priority for the PAF, given how it has historically faced sanctions at critical stages in time, is to have a sanction-proof design/production supply chain. For example, rather than pouring immense resources into trying to design and develop a high performance fighter engine, which would take an immense amount of time, those same resources would be better suited to designing platforms to meet the PAF's requirements, and filling in the critical components from places such as Turkey and/or China.

Of note is that this is only now viable given where China in particular has advanced to. If you look back at the history of the JF-17 for example, during its early stages, the PAF were keen to incorporate Western radar, avionics, and weapons, especially French systems, and I think there was even talk of using the Snecma M88. However, over time, as the Chinese developed and improved their capability, the PAF had more confidence in using critical components from China, rather than their historical leaning on Western systems. Another good example is the PAF willing to use Chinese engines in the J-10 rather than Russian engines.

Where the JF-17 has been very useful for the PAF is to learn how to design and develop an airframe, especially from the conceptual and detail design onwards, as well as further CFD and wind tunnel refinement. Remember when sanctions impacted the development of the JF-17, and the then ACM, Mushaf Ali Mir, made the critical decision of decoupling the airframe development from the radar/avionics/weapons, which meant that rather than a protracted development timeline, the airframe could be developed, while the latest avionics and weapons could then be integrated, rather than fixing the avionics/weapons package from an earlier time that would have already been outdated. It's this approach that has led to a fairly easy and rapid increase in capability for the JF-17, from Block I to Block III.

And I think people are being way too inpatient to say Azm has failed. I mean what were you expecting, a fully built prototype in 5 years?!!

Personally I don't think this is too bad, from what it seems they realised from Project Azm they bit off a lot more than they could chew and decided to reorganise their planning in this manner which hopefully works out more fruitful

Only problem is that they are ignoring the very basics, they built lots of incubation centres, research facilities, technology/IT parks - but I think there needs to be a big focus on schools and universities providing high quality STEM focused education to produce high quality human resources and manpower

This above is what will truly allow you to utilise the research facilities and IT parks efficiently, a massive focus on quality STEM education nation wide

 

[lcloo]

Pakistan will need about 20 years from concept design to first low rate production aircraft, if Pakistan do it alone. This is actually a normal timeline for many fighter jets in the past. Meaning the first production aircraft would be rolling out around 2041 or later.

Development for South Korea's KF-21 concept was first announced in 2001, 22 years ago, and the maiden flight took placed in July 2022, and they have helps from US and Europeans.

The mass production of KF-21 is expected to start in 2026, 25 years after the project concept was first announced.

Bear in mind that South Korea has far better industrial infrastructure, a large pool of experienced engineering work force and better aircraft building experience than Pakistan.

 

[Shabi1]

Pakistan will need about 20 years from concept design to first low rate production aircraft, if Pakistan do it alone. This is actually a normal timeline for many fighter jets in the past. Meaning the first production aircraft would be rolling out around 2041 or later.

Development for South Korea's KF-21 concept was first announced in 2001, 22 years ago, and the maiden flight took placed in July 2022, and they have helps from US and Europeans.

The mass production of KF-21 is expected to start in 2026, 25 years after the project concept was first announced.

Bear in mind that South Korea has far better industrial infrastructure, a large pool of experienced engineering work force and better aircraft building experience than Pakistan.

Azm was publicly revealed 2017, could have been in the works perhaps 3 yrs in adv, so starting 2014 with Chinese being outsourced wind tunnel testing and airframe assistance (as was originally indicated by ACM Sohail) could have been available by the time we needed to retire F-16s or match India's target of 2035 for it's AMCA.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Pakistan will need about 20 years from concept design to first low rate production aircraft, if Pakistan do it alone. This is actually a normal timeline for many fighter jets in the past. Meaning the first production aircraft would be rolling out around 2041 or later.

Development for South Korea's KF-21 concept was first announced in 2001, 22 years ago, and the maiden flight took placed in July 2022, and they have helps from US and Europeans.

The mass production of KF-21 is expected to start in 2026, 25 years after the project concept was first announced.

Bear in mind that South Korea has far better industrial infrastructure, a large pool of experienced engineering work force and better aircraft building experience than Pakistan.

Completely, agreed!!!

Members of PDF struggle to understand many issues' genuine realities

Su30MKI production in India and J17 production in Pakistan are both comparable to OEM items that are produced internally including many parts being supplied locally.

Since the PAF had "0%" experience with basic aircraft designing, tunnel testing, and other fundamental basic concepts to develop a aircraft from the scratch, I was shocked and amazed when they were allowance to develop a 5th generation fighter.

PAF has only Three options Presently:

1. collaborate with already developing project with China or Turkey or Any.

2. Follow the JF17 Model and collaborate on a project with any other nation, such as China or Turkey, both of whom have the resources to produce 5th Generation fighters. After the TOT, PAF will be able to manufacture the aircraft internally once they have finished the necessary processes and development.

3. .Start internal construction of the infrastructure and other facilities. It will take some time to develop a aircraft from scratch, since it needs a lot of resources, money, and time (15-20 years).

 

[Indos]

Pakistan will need about 20 years from concept design to first low rate production aircraft, if Pakistan do it alone. This is actually a normal timeline for many fighter jets in the past. Meaning the first production aircraft would be rolling out around 2041 or later.

Development for South Korea's KF-21 concept was first announced in 2001, 22 years ago, and the maiden flight took placed in July 2022, and they have helps from US and Europeans.

The mass production of KF-21 is expected to start in 2026, 25 years after the project concept was first announced.

Bear in mind that South Korea has far better industrial infrastructure, a large pool of experienced engineering work force and better aircraft building experience than Pakistan.

KFX/IFX first development is actually in 2011, technology development phase (ADD Korea+ Indonesian Aerospace+ ITB (Institute Technology Bandung).

In 2001 is just concept but no real development. You cannot see any design during 2001-2011. Only after 2012 December two main designs are released. South Korea hasnt been confident yet for KFX/IFX development during 2001-2009. They need to ask Indonesia in 2009 to join the program. If you do it alone, there is fear the program will be stopped, but if you have foreign partner, it is not easy to stop the program because it has been G2G development, stopping the program can hurt bilateral relationship. There is always people inside government who want to kill the program or make the program become less ambitious. It happen during KFX/IFX development.

In a democratic country for example, the ruling and opposition parties can create drama. The drama in Indonesian side is because Indonesia was under SBY government when it signed cooperation with Korea in 2009. That party who rule that government (Demokrat) is in opposition under current administration (2014-2024).

KFX/IFX can be speed up if the development is not halted by Korean during 2013-2014. The program can only be started again in 2016 as there was tender going on in Korea over what companies who will manufacture C103 Design that has been decided in late 2014 as KFX/IFX basic design. KAI Korea won the tender with Assistance from Lockheed Martin as the company who will manufacture the design developed during 2011-2012 December. The design then needs some refinement from 2016-2018 July. In 2018 July-2019 September there was detail design phase and then CDR.

 

[Indos]

Aerospace program needs huge money and because of that it needs supportive government. We can see what happen in KFX/IFX program where both in Korea and Indonesian side, there are always group who want to kill the program. The program can still continue is just because the help of Allah, there are drama inside the program and people who follow the program since 2009 will understand it, for Korea the drama start in 2001.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Aerospace program needs huge money and because of that it needs supportive government. We can see what happen in KFX/IFX program where both in Korea and Indonesian side, there are always group who want to kill the program. The program can still continue is just because the help of Allah, there are drama inside the program and people who follow the program since 2009 will understand it, for Korea the drama start in 2001.

Korea is known for its famous drama serial, after all... many dubbed in Hindi

 

[Indos]

Korea is known for its famous drama serial, after all... many dubbed in Hindi

Indonesians are also famous with their drama, many Malaysian watch Indonesian drama as well ....

Basically it was between group of optimists and group of pessimists that make the drama in KFX/IFX going on....The drama I would say has been ended since November 2021 when renegotiations is AlhamduliLLAH completed.

Now Indonesian drama is starting again with R80 program......Although basic design has been completed, it needs cooperation with Indonesian Aerospace to do detail design that needs many design engineers, and also Indonesian Aerospace is needed for prototyping, testing, and certification phase, and that would not be possible without money from Government. Hopefully next administration will be supportive, this is actually the benefit of limiting President ruling period. Each leader usually has their own mind on how to develop their nation