What is your idea about the possibility of secularism in Iran?

[Surenas]

70% of Iranians live in urban areas.
70% of Turks live in urban areas.
36% of Pakistanis live in urban areas.
42% of Egyptians live in urban areas.

The correlation between urbanization and modernization is quite clear.

 

[PakistaniPacifist]

Iran is rapidly urbanizing; UN predicts that by 2030, 80% of Iranians will live in urban areas. But what's your problem exactly with non-Islamic Iranians? Just live your own life.

The reason as to why I stated that is that those Westerners were probably based in cities like Shiraz and Tehran and rarely mixed or interacted with people from rural communities or those from smaller cities who are more likely to be religious.

Look, your putting words into my mouth, when did I say I have a problem with non-Islamic Iranians?

 

[Abii]

The reason as to why I stated that is that those Westerners were probably based in cities like Shiraz and Tehran and rarely mixed or interacted with people from rural communities or those from smaller cities who are more likely to be religious.

Look, your putting words into my mouth, when did I say I have a problem with non-Islamic Iranians?

wtf are you talking about? Nothing you say even makes any sense.

I was born and grew up in Shiraz. Every weekend we were either in Sepidan or some other close by town to either shop, picnic etc... You're assuming that we don't have any contact when you don't even know how Iranians live. wtf is a rural community anyway? The only difference between an Iranian farmer and a city dweller is income level (unless you're living in some remote *** village with a pop'n of 350 on top of some mountain). Other than that there's really not much difference. I don't even understand how they came up with the 30% non-urban figure b/c to me all the small towns surrounding Shiraz were just poorer versions of Shiraz. To me they were all urban settings. Iran is an urbanized country and even people living in smaller cities live the exact same way as the city folk.

In any case even the opinion of the 70% is enough.

Edit: re-read your comment and you're talking about Western tourists, my mistake. In any case, as I said before, the opinion of the 70% is enough. Turkey is 70% urban and the country is considered a secular country. The more educated and urban the country becomes over the years, the more the opinion of the rural folks becomes alligned with the urban population.

 

[FaujHistorian]

wtf are you talking about? Nothing you say even makes any sense.

I was born and grew up in Shiraz. Every weekend we were either in Sepidan or some other close by town to either shop, picnic etc... You're assuming that we don't have any contact when you don't even know how Iranians live. wtf is a rural community anyway? The only difference between an Iranian farmer and a city dweller is income level (unless you're living in some remote *** village with a pop'n of 350 on top of some mountain). Other than that there's really not much difference. I don't even understand how they came up with the 30% non-urban figure b/c to me all the small towns surrounding Shiraz were just poorer versions of Shiraz. To me they were all urban settings. Iran is an urbanized country and even people living in smaller cities live the exact same way as the city folk.

In any case even the opinion of the 70% is enough.




Edit: re-read your comment and you're talking about Western tourists, my mistake. In any case, as I said before, the opinion of the 70% is enough. Turkey is 70% urban and the country is considered a secular country. The more educated and urban the country becomes over the years, the more the opinion of the rural folks becomes alligned with the urban population.

Almost 500 posts (498 to be exact).

so what's the verdict.

Secularism possible in Iran or not.


p.s.

Sorry can't read the 498 posts to figure this out.

thank you

 

[Abii]

Almost 500 posts (498 to be exact).

so what's the verdict.

Secularism possible in Iran or not.


p.s.

Sorry can't read the 498 posts to figure this out.

thank you

This is how I see it: both Iran and Turkey have 70% urbanization rates and similar rates of education. Islam in Turkey is seen as part of the nation's culture while in Iran it's seen as an import from Saudi Arabia among at least half the nation (I'm being conservative here). In Iran, b/c of more than 3 decades of an extremely brutal theocratic dictatorship, the idea of Islam among the young urban educated people has become very negative. You combine all these and to an outsider it would come as a surprise that it's Turkey which is the secular one and not Iran. According to Iran's own ministry of culture, only 1.4 percent of people go to mosques to pray (this is according to the regime's ministry of culture).

If secularism can work in Turkey, it can work in Iran, no doubt about it. Again, in Turkey they see Islam as Turkish culture while in Iran, at least among half the nation, Islam is seen as arabic culture, even among many muslims. More Turks go to mosques to pray than Iranians do. More Turks pray at home than Iranians do.

Iran can and will become a secular nation one day.

 

[Surenas]

This is how I see it: both Iran and Turkey have 70% urbanization rates and similar rates of education. Islam in Turkey is seen as part of the nation's culture while in Iran it's seen as an import from Saudi Arabia among at least half the nation (I'm being conservative here). In Iran, b/c of more than 3 decades of an extremely brutal theocratic dictatorship, the idea of Islam among the young urban educated people has become very negative. You combine all these and to an outsider it would come as a surprise that it's Turkey which is the secular one and not Iran. According to Iran's own ministry of culture, only 1.4 percent of people go to mosques to pray (this is according to the regime's ministry of culture).

If secularism can work in Turkey, it can work in Iran, no doubt about it. Again, in Turkey they see Islam as Turkish culture while in Iran, at least among half the nation, Islam is seen as arabic culture, even among many muslims. More Turks go to mosques to pray than Iranians do. More Turks pray at home than Iranians do.

Iran can and will become a secular nation one day.

Besides the discussion about Islam; its really remarkable how the perception of religion has changed within the Iranian society, at least with a great portion of the society. A Islamic revolution, once started against injustice, corruption and oppression, has caused major skepticism on religion (Islam) among Iranians. It completely caused the opposite. Imagine our great great-grant-children looking at Iran over, let's say, 200 years. They will look at this period as the most darkest period of Iran's history, and on the other hand as a period that formed Iran's national identity and skepticism on religion.

I'm willing to bet that a majority of Iranians will not be religious (Islamic) anymore over, let's say, 100/200 years. We are now going through the same transformation the Europeans went during the Enlightenment. And thats why the mullahs are holding on to their power. Because they now that if they give it up now, they will never get it back. Its now or never for them. And thats why they are trying to get their hands on a nuclear weapon; they think that by acquiring one, their position is guaranteed.

 

[atatwolf]

Don't compare Turkey to Iran. We are sunni while you are Shia. Turkey had influence from different cultures and religions. Iran didn't. I don't know how general muslim population in Iran is going to react to secularism. I don't see it happening. I see executions happening and maybe even worse. Not that I want it for Iran but don't compare Turkey to Iran, just compare Istanbul to Tehran. We have different history and people than Iran. You have to be more realistic.

 

[Surenas]

Don't compare Turkey to Iran. We are sunni while you are Shia. Turkey had influence from different cultures and religions. Iran didn't. I don't know how general muslim population in Iran is going to react to secularism. I don't see it happening. I see executions happening and maybe even worse. Not that I want it for Iran but don't compare Turkey to Iran, just compare Istanbul to Tehran. We have different history and people than Iran. You have to be more realistic.

Well since you asked a question about Iran's religious society, I compared it to Turkey, to make it more understandable to you. I agree that you can't compare it to Turkey, because the level of religious oppression is much greater in Iran than in Turkey. Thats why so many Iranians are sick and tired of religion, and Turks not. Mainly because of Ataturk. He saved Islam, rather than destroying it.

 

[atatwolf]

So what % of Iran is religous? Last time I asked you gave an internet survey.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Besides the discussion about Islam; its really remarkable how the perception of religion has changed within the Iranian society, at least with a great portion of the society. A Islamic revolution, once started against injustice, corruption and oppression, has caused major skepticism on religion (Islam) among Iranians. It completely caused the opposite. Imagine our great great-grant-children looking at Iran over, let's say, 200 years. They will look at this period as the most darkest period of Iran's history, and on the other hand as a period that formed Iran's national identity and skepticism on religion.

I'm willing to bet that a majority of Iranians will not be religious (Islamic) anymore over, let's say, 100/200 years. We are now going through the same transformation the Europeans went during the Enlightenment. And thats why the mullahs are holding on to their power. Because they now that if they give it up now, they will never get it back. Its now or never for them. And thats why they are trying to get their hands on a nuclear weapon; they think that by acquiring one, their position is guaranteed.

Thanks for your assessment.


Just an important point to consider.


European enlightement was possible for a very strong business class that went secular.

Without this secular business class, Euroepan transformation/enlightenment would have been much more difficult.



Considering that,

What do you think about Iranian business class?

Are they secular, or majority of them are supporters of Mosque, Mullah, and Ayatullahs?


peace

 

[Surenas]

Thanks for your assessment.


Just an important point to consider.


European enlightement was possible for a very strong business class that went secular.

Without this secular business class, Euroepan transformation/enlightenment would have been much more difficult.



Considering that,

What do you think about Iranian business class?

Are they secular, or majority of them are supporters of Mosque, Mullah, and Ayatullahs?


peace

Iran's business has been 'militarized' which means that a lot of industrial positions are now occupied by ex-IRGC. But I would say that a lot of businessmen are pro-change, considering the fact that they have interests in seeing Iran getting access to the international world, especially in trading. But the enlightenment wasn't caused by the Europeans businessmen, but by philosphers, scholars, etc. It has to be an intellectual revolution.

 

[Abii]

Which muslim country can produce a guy like Shahin Najafi, an anti-mullah/muslim musician/artist, and then also get a loyal following that numbers in the millions? Answer: only Iran. Add this to the list of reasons why Iran will become secular in the future.

All these songs have English translations either in the description or in the video itself

The culture of Iran's youth (majority of Iran's pop'n) and the govt/rulling elite of Iran must be the world's BIGGEST contradiction.

 

[Type 052D]

If all this is true, then Iran will become an secular nation. But take confucian values in your nation.

 

[SOHEIL]

If all this is true, then Iran will become an secular nation. But take confucian values in your nation.

IF ... & **** that confucius ...

 

[TurAr]

This is how I see it: both Iran and Turkey have 70% urbanization rates and similar rates of education. Islam in Turkey is seen as part of the nation's culture while in Iran it's seen as an import from Saudi Arabia among at least half the nation (I'm being conservative here). In Iran, b/c of more than 3 decades of an extremely brutal theocratic dictatorship, the idea of Islam among the young urban educated people has become very negative. You combine all these and to an outsider it would come as a surprise that it's Turkey which is the secular one and not Iran. According to Iran's own ministry of culture, only 1.4 percent of people go to mosques to pray (this is according to the regime's ministry of culture).

I have no idea how you come up with such conclusions and numbers but going mosques, attending prayers, etc, has nothing to do with how a person sees secularism.

LOCAL - More secular, green Turkey wanted: Poll

If secularism can work in Turkey, it can work in Iran, no doubt about it. Again, in Turkey they see Islam as Turkish culture while in Iran, at least among half the nation, Islam is seen as arabic culture, even among many muslims.

I do not know what do you mean by "they see Islam as Turkish culture" but indeed Islam is playing an important role in our culture, just like Iran's.

Such regime couldn't survive in Turkey with such conditions more than 1 year no matter how many people they execute, how many arms and legs they cut off. So, you souldn't compare Iran with Turkey about that. If you are eager to make comparisons, there are many Arab countries at your disposal which would make more sense when compared to Iran.