What if PAF has to defend on two fronts?

[SSGPA1]

There are only two armies in this world which are fighting nowadays, India and US. PA is running a sham in NWFP

What a joke! Indian army couldn't fight the mujahideens in Indian occupied Kashmir and you compare them with the US army.

While terrorists were in Control in Mumbai Indian commandos were at the Delhi ariport waiting for hrs so that a jet can take them to Mumbai.

MiG 21 is a flying coffin because your own Def minister and company took kick backs which caused faulty spares for these MiGs.

I can go on so don't act like a kid.

 

[Moscow]

What a joke! Indian army couldn't fight the mujahideens in Indian occupied Kashmir and you compare them with the US army.


sir the comparing the indian army to the us army is totally pointless,the us army is far more advanced in terms of technological superiority and weaponary but they r also very technologicallly dependent.the indian army depends on human ability and endurance they r nowhere close to US army in weaponary,or technological support.
about the mujhahideens in kashmir , after all the war and bloodshed the situation in kashmir has not changed its still the same ground positions.
so on what basis is it that the indian army failed i do not understand.both sides had lost men and lots of innocents killed through the period,moreover covert operations is diffucult for superior world forces to stall so in that regard they did ok


While terrorists were in Control in Mumbai Indian commandos were at the Delhi ariport waiting for hrs so that a jet can take them to Mumbai.


the delay was due to the arrival of airforce plane which could carry all the personnel with their ammunitions. none of the planes stationed there in the airport had the capability.< i came across this report in this very forum >


MiG 21 is a flying coffin because your own Def minister and company took kick backs which caused faulty spares for these MiGs.

the mig 21 is and was a great fighter plane during its time. it has lived its time with top functional ability. its success can be attributed to the fact that a large part of the world airforces inducted the plane in its inventery.the cases of crash correspond to the time period when russia was unable to supply with the proper spares after the breakup of the ussr. russias inability lead to the use of cheap and low quality parts acquired from other sources.it has lived its timespan and we must acknowledge the service its delivered


I can go on so don't act like a kid.

sir the aim was not to justify or contradict any of your claims but a more logical answer to some of the questions raised.

 

[SSGPA1]

Moscow,

When I say that IA failed then it means that IA failed achieve their goal which was to stop the mujahideens in Kashmir.

Militancy stopped whern the GoI came to the table to discuss Kashmir as an issue.

MiG 21 was reffered to bring him back to planet Earth.

 

[Moscow]

Moscow,

When I say that IA failed then it means that IA failed achieve their goal which was to stop the mujahideens in Kashmir.

Militancy stopped whern the GoI came to the table to discuss Kashmir as an issue.

MiG 21 was reffered to bring him back to planet Earth.

sir i understood your point of view you are absolutely right about it. thanks for an honest answer.

 

[Firebird_80]

What a joke! Indian army couldn't fight the mujahideens in Indian occupied Kashmir and you compare them with the US army.

While terrorists were in Control in Mumbai Indian commandos were at the Delhi ariport waiting for hrs so that a jet can take them to Mumbai.

MiG 21 is a flying coffin because your own Def minister and company took kick backs which caused faulty spares for these MiGs.

I can go on so don't act like a kid.

actually have you operated in High Altitude region and do you have any idea on conduct of operations in high altitude? If so then we can discuss the Kargil conflict altogether in a different thread. please kindly do let know.

as for the statement, i quote the US report which seeks to build India as an ally ..... we are not interested in being an ally .... a partner yes ..... but independent

oh you seem to have a great idea about built up area fighting ... am impressed. very informative argument you have given

mig-21 ... now that is an albatross ..... well there was no infusion of funds into defence forces in 90s as a part of austerity measures and economic reforms launched in order to rescue india from dire straits it was in 1991. in 1999 at the time of kargil war, not a single equipment was added and as a result even spares were being purchased not from original equipment manufacture.
its well known in india, if your competitor gets the deal, cry kickbacks and it is scuttled. or if you find any weapons platform being inducted that is force multiplier and gives decisive edge, shout kickbacks and govt develops cold feet and delays and goes for fresh proposals which see the contender who had better equipment being forced out. corrupt politicians is something common to both india and pakistan. example of this can be found in all major deals post-Bofors scam, be it HDW submarine, or Barak misile system (which is actually good) or T-90 or 155 mm SPG (SA Denell was thrown out) or the recent light helicopter deal ...... just cry :kickbacks and it is gone

 

[Firebird_80]

Moscow,

When I say that IA failed then it means that IA failed achieve their goal which was to stop the mujahideens in Kashmir.

Militancy stopped whern the GoI came to the table to discuss Kashmir as an issue.

MiG 21 was reffered to bring him back to planet Earth.

ah the political will is lacking to settle that issue, its a political solution now needed, military can be done anytime.

as for GoI coming to discuss, that we offer all, chance for peace, for war leaves no dignity to either the victorious or the vanquished

and bring whom back to planet earth? i sense there is a national paranoia in Pakistan prevailing that india covets pak territories ....... and whole world is teaming up against them and there are no terrorist camps and that muslims in india are persecuted ........ !!! now this lot indicates unearthly thinking

 

[Firebird_80]

Besides many inconsistencies and massive exaggerations in your plan, I think PAF would be in deep trouble if simultaneous multiple attacks are directed both from East and West…

As I said earlier that traditionally PAFs modus operandi, her infrastructures (airfields, MOBs/FOBs), distribution of assets (aircraft / radars) and training is more oriented to take a threat from East only. Although PAF did deal with attacks from West in late 80s and 90s but those were far less in magnitude comparing with any future attack from (lets say) US and any other western airforce…

While PAF will give tough fight in the beginning but over a period of time the attrition, neutralising of her infrastructure and destruction of command centres will take a heavy toll on her operations and performance: no doubts about that...

The multiple attacks is still a hypothesis and will it happen in reality, is anybody’s guess...Theory is always different from reality , and reality always comes with many surprises…

actually X-Man ... this scenario you have typed may just give jitters (even to me) ...... I am not sure but Israel, UK,Germany and France have indicated (unofficially as of yet) willingness to join operations against terror infrastructure inside of Pakistan, (although officially its still diplomatic pressure, but failure on that front is seeing a broad consensus being built by India for the same)

Also the statement of E.Ahmed to UN "take steps or India shall take steps" have the basis of ominious message being made. today i heard that all 155 envoys world over were being briefed by MEA in New Delhi to put Indian viewpoint world over to build a case for action. what i feel, is a ploy by india to try and get a UN mandate (something akin to Gulf War-I) and if not, to get enough people on board for a multilateral task force to strike into Pakistan. remember Germany and France have already threatened Iran with force if it does not halt its nuke program. And now they have openly supported india in what ever steps needed to counter terrorism. and there is genuine fear of pak nukes getting into hands of nutcases as PA and ISI are increasingly being seen as beyond control. US is still hesitant but it may not be long before it too agrees and there just maybe multi-directional strikes for even Russians have shown willingness to take out terror infrastructure in Pakistan.

In that case, you may just see extensive force being employed from North, East and West as also career task force in south both US and Indian ...... the scenario is highly realistic now especially with more and more time passing with extensive diplomatic action by india and other western nations to garner support fr strong action and pak failing to live upto its promises

 

[batmannow]

Dear guys!
plz keep in minds, this thread was bieng created purly, to undermin the recent incidents happened in last 15 days! plz look at todays news, PAF in the air over LAHORE, KARACHI, ISLAMABAD, MUZZAFARABAD , & ALL OTHER MAJOR CITES IN PAKISTAN! why?what is that , which PAF is smelling today?
thread is on target, & it is directed towards the PAF planners!
the situation in afghanistan, the situation in pakistani side of (NWFP), the situation in MUMBAI(india), what will be thier impact, & from that impact , what could be the indian reaction?

did india tryied to break into pakistani airspace?
why india did it? who is trying its best to push india into its dirty game?
who is attacking pakistani area's by its drones ! on the name of "WAR OF TERRROR", who is having hard time in afghanistan?who give the permission to INDIA to open its "18 counslate's", why they were needed?

what will be comming in near future, a "WORLD WAR"?
why pakistan is being a target of terrorism,why its militry had been a issue?
i guss, many answers could be found in this thread, i am very thankfull to our , senior member MR, ALWAYSNEUTRAL; who did a great job to create a situation , in which PAF had to cover itself from both sides?

but, plz do remember "pakistan's geographical importance", pakistan is same important to CHINA , as it was to USA, if USA can put , a new alliance to change the reginal map, thn it would be netural that the other's can put an anti-allied alliance too, IRAN know's tht it is the very most target of USA,
CHINA & NORTH KOREA ,also has thier own problums with USA! RUSSIA already trying to bring an anti-usa alliance, so its very logical that any attack on pakistan will bring a stronger alliance against, because all the above mentioned states ,were facing threats from USA, SOONER OR LATER , they could be under same kind of targeting by USA?


I AM QUIET SURE THAT, WHENEVER ,PAF BEEN PUSHED TO DEFEND ITS 2 FRONTS against the allied attacks, it willbe flying with plaf (by china,) because it will bring china ,in the real danger zone too?

 

[batmannow]

Sonia warns Pakistan
December 22, 2008 Monday Zilhaj 23, 1429
DAWN NEWS.COM


JAMMU, Dec 21: Congress party chief Sonia Gandhi warned Pakistan on Sunday against “taking India’s wish for peace as a sign of weakness” and said her country was capable of giving a “befitting reply to those using their soil for abetting and promoting terrorism against it”.
“Our wish for peace and friendship should not be taken as a sign of weakness,” Press Trust of India quoted Ms Gandhi as telling an election rally. She said she was disappointed by what she called Pakistan’s failure to reciprocate India’s efforts for better ties.

She said India wanted peaceful and friendly relations with its neighbour in the same way as it wanted peace and tranquillity within the country.

“We have tried to build friendly relations, but it is a matter of regret that they have not understood our feelings,” she said.

 

[x_man]

actually X-Man ... this scenario you have typed may just give jitters (even to me) ...... I am not sure but Israel, UK,Germany and France have indicated (unofficially as of yet) willingness to join operations against terror infrastructure inside of Pakistan, (although officially its still diplomatic pressure, but failure on that front is seeing a broad consensus being built by India for the same)

Also the statement of E.Ahmed to UN "take steps or India shall take steps" have the basis of ominious message being made. today i heard that all 155 envoys world over were being briefed by MEA in New Delhi to put Indian viewpoint world over to build a case for action. what i feel, is a ploy by india to try and get a UN mandate (something akin to Gulf War-I) and if not, to get enough people on board for a multilateral task force to strike into Pakistan. remember Germany and France have already threatened Iran with force if it does not halt its nuke program. And now they have openly supported india in what ever steps needed to counter terrorism. and there is genuine fear of pak nukes getting into hands of nutcases as PA and ISI are increasingly being seen as beyond control. US is still hesitant but it may not be long before it too agrees and there just maybe multi-directional strikes for even Russians have shown willingness to take out terror infrastructure in Pakistan.

In that case, you may just see extensive force being employed from North, East and West as also career task force in south both US and Indian ...... the scenario is highly realistic now especially with more and more time passing with extensive diplomatic action by india and other western nations to garner support fr strong action and pak failing to live upto its promises

Okay Sir, so now we facing multi directional areal threats from a joint effort of USA, UK, Israel, India, Russia, Germany and France…Dude I think you missed Brazil, Australia , Honolulu and few Martians too for Mars…Why not plan your attack on us from space too!!!

I can only smile on your dreams and wonder who is the nutcase here….hmmmm

 

[Firebird_80]

Okay Sir, so now we facing multi directional areal threats from a joint effort of USA, UK, Israel, India, Russia, Germany and France…Dude I think you missed Brazil, Australia , Honolulu and few Martians too for Mars…Why not plan your attack on us from space too!!!

I can only smile on your dreams and wonder who is the nutcase here….hmmmm

the scenario you presented, i merely commented on that .... no need for sarcasm

my analysis is based on following facts:

a. The NATO supply lines to Afghanistan run through Pakistan. The mere fact that these are not being protected as much as they should be, and with incidents of burning of over 250 vehicles bearing supplies for NATO near peshawar recently, only serves to underline the risks associated with PA applying pressure on US and NATO to back down in forcing it to act against elements within Pakistan post-Mumbai. However, what Pakistan may miscalculate is the resolve of NATO countries to fight in Afghanistan. It has been openly said by Obama that he may send US troops into **** territory if he feels PA is unable to manage things there, as also yesterday they announced 30000 more troops for Afghanistan. Any situation where these lines may be threatened may see NATO action to secure their forces in Afghanistan in whatever way (inclusive of expanding operations in FATA and NWFP to control these vulnerable areas). Also France and Germany have on record gone and threatened Iran with war over nuclear weapons, (something reiterated by Hilary Clinton the new Secretary of State elect) so what is Pakistan in case their interests are threatened?

b.Indian political scenario can not allow non-response to mumbai attacks. Either Pakistan hands over the main people ie Dawwod Ibrahim, Masood Azhar etc to India (unlikely) or the Indian government will have no option but to act. In that case, Pakistan will withdraw the remainig troops from west and that leaves the area vulnerable, which again NATO cannot allow.

c. UK, US and israeli along with indian citizens were segregated and targeted. Non-muslims were the only targets inside the hotels once indiscrimintae firing was stopped by terrorists. Hostages were divided into Muslim and non-muslim groups and further as per country. Israel is willing to join without doubt.

d. France yesterday said it supports any and all steps taken by India to strike at terror infrastructure.

e. Indian hesitancy in military option is not invincibility of Pakistan (that is a joke at best because in the end a country with more resources, a larger industrial base and more manpower always wins) but then PA will use this as a reason to withdraw troops from NWFP and FATA which will further destabilise the region.

As for Honolulu, its capital of Hawai which is a state of US ..... just atleast read what you write and not type for sake of typing. Be mature about your posts

 

[SherdiL!]

the scenario you presented, i merely commented on that .... no need for sarcasm

my analysis is based on following facts:

a. The NATO supply lines to Afghanistan run through Pakistan. The mere fact that these are not being protected as much as they should be, and with incidents of burning of over 250 vehicles bearing supplies for NATO near peshawar recently, only serves to underline the risks associated with PA applying pressure on US and NATO to back down in forcing it to act against elements within Pakistan post-Mumbai. However, what Pakistan may miscalculate is the resolve of NATO countries to fight in Afghanistan. It has been openly said by Obama that he may send US troops into **** territory if he feels PA is unable to manage things there, as also yesterday they announced 30000 more troops for Afghanistan. Any situation where these lines may be threatened may see NATO action to secure their forces in Afghanistan in whatever way (inclusive of expanding operations in FATA and NWFP to control these vulnerable areas). Also France and Germany have on record gone and threatened Iran with war over nuclear weapons, (something reiterated by Hilary Clinton the new Secretary of State elect) so what is Pakistan in case their interests are threatened?

b.Indian political scenario can not allow non-response to mumbai attacks. Either Pakistan hands over the main people ie Dawwod Ibrahim, Masood Azhar etc to India (unlikely) or the Indian government will have no option but to act. In that case, Pakistan will withdraw the remainig troops from west and that leaves the area vulnerable, which again NATO cannot allow.

c. UK, US and israeli along with indian citizens were segregated and targeted. Non-muslims were the only targets inside the hotels once indiscrimintae firing was stopped by terrorists. Hostages were divided into Muslim and non-muslim groups and further as per country. Israel is willing to join without doubt.

d. France yesterday said it supports any and all steps taken by India to strike at terror infrastructure.

e. Indian hesitancy in military option is not invincibility of Pakistan (that is a joke at best because in the end a country with more resources, a larger industrial base and more manpower always wins) but then PA will use this as a reason to withdraw troops from NWFP and FATA which will further destabilise the region.

As for Honolulu, its capital of Hawai which is a state of US ..... just atleast read what you write and not type for sake of typing. Be mature about your posts

your another very insecure on the forums

Pakistan ZINDABAD

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It really is a shame on part of the participants who donot do any research before they write over here.

First of all---there are no more thousand aircraft sorties any more---a single B2 can deliver hundreds of times more bombs than possibly a sqdrn of A 5 's----next when the USAF attacks, it is the only air force operating in that theatre---no other air force is capable to compete and match with them and niether does u s allows them to operate.

Case in point----the 1 st gulf war----israelis wanted to attack iraq---but were firmly subdued---for they didnot have the capabilities of usaf. When the british airforce or the french operate---they operate with the permission of the usaf so that they may believe that they have not been left behind.

The usaf would only need a few B 2 to bring pakistan to its knees within 24 to 48 hours at the most---as a matter of fact----during the 1 st hour of the attack pakistan's fate would be sealed---.

Bottomline----" I would say that pakistan as we know would have met its demise during the very first hour of strile by the USAF "---after that it would be total plastering and for after effect purposes----which means that pakistan may live but might be worse than somalia.

Unlike iraq-----pakistan has many a strategic choke points---.

 

[deltacamelately]

As for China not vetoing against the so called UN resolution, what you are forgetting is that Pakistan it self did not object the resolution, how will you expect others to stand by you if you yourself are direction less. I dont see it any other way round. If Pakistan had objected the resolution and had gone forward to contest it in the international court and china would have not stood up, then we could agree to what you just said above, however when we our self are not objecting to it, how can we even think that china will go the other way round.

Edit : IIRC, while this resolution was being presented in the UN, Pakistan wasn't even invited or informed. PRC tacitly sent a message to Pakistan. It was a diplomatic blow to the GoP.

 

[x_man]

the scenario you presented, i merely commented on that .... no need for sarcasm

Which scenario did I create? I think you are mixing things here &#8230;.My post # 91 was in reply to Always Neutrals post #71 in which he flew 2000 fighters in 2 hours and jammed everything and destroyed whole PAF in 2 hours&#8230;here it is for your ref:

0400 hrs massive communication jamming of PAF and GOP assets followed by divisionary attack by USAF Special forces in Tribal areas.

A 1000 plane task force consisting of Israeli, US, NATO (maybe us and France only), Indian and Russian Force are launched at 0430 hrs from atleast 6 different directions on Pakistan with the primary aim of neutralising the PAF and the missile launch capacity.

At 0600 hrs the second sortie of 1000 more planes of US, Russian, Israeli and Indian hit the remaining PAF targets.

SO please let me know that my which post had a scenario in it that gave you the jitters?? &#8230;What&#8217;s the post # ?

As far as sarcasm, dude when you quote statements like below and ridicule my Army, be ready to face the same from others&#8230;.

fear of pak nukes getting into hands of nutcases as PA and ISI are increasingly&#8230;

I agree with you that possiblity of multiple attacks cannot be ruled out in the present scenarion...The threat is real.. But I dont think that it will be kind of joint effort by so many contries you earlier stated...While PAFs resources will be saturated, but It wont scumb as easily as some posters mentioned..