What's new

What if PAF has to defend on two fronts?

No matter what pakistan is going to use its nukes in that case..even before the attack is launched....remember its not easy to attack a nuclear state..

Is that why drones attack take place in Pakistan ? Anyway the person who started this thread wanted to know how Pakistan will perform on two fronts and I guess you have nothing tactical to contribute.

Bye and Regards
 
hey i saw sheikh rasheed ( an ex minister) saying that pak nuclear assets can even survive a nuclear attack!!! any info on that?
 
Is that why drones attack take place in Pakistan ? Anyway the person who started this thread wanted to know how Pakistan will perform on two fronts and I guess you have nothing tactical to contribute.

Bye and Regards


they are doing by a mutual understanding with pak govt..

yeah true... i m not that type of a guy..i am sorry :)
 
I would like to see Pakistan invest in the "Anti-Missile Defense shield" systems, I particularly like the Patriot system engineered by the U.S It is highly accurate, very reliable, and does it's job overall well.

Now in Regards to PAF, PAF would be at wit's end if it had to fight NATO/US planes from the western border and IAF planes from the eastern Border, the last country to take on such a battle and feat was probably Nazi Germany, fighting the Russians on it's Eastern Front and the US and other Allied countries on it's Western Front...And we all know how it turned out for Germany, they were defeated and humiliated, though their soldier's fought their hearts out, and their Air Force did the most dangerous Missions.

However I understand with today's modern technology it is easier for a country to fight such battles, however Pakistan is not that country at least not yet.

If the conflict only remains on our Eastern Border with India then there is little doubt PAF is capable of success.

My comments are the greatest, I have yet to see any impressive analytical thinking from anyone, pay attention to my post on page 1 of this thread and the quote above. Maybe you students will learn something.
 
...A 1000 plane task force consisting of Israeli, US, NATO (maybe us and France only), Indian and Russian Force are launched at 0430 hrs from atleast 6 different directions on Pakistan with the primary aim of neutralising the PAF and the missile launch capacity.

Simultaneous launch from sea by US using cruise missiles to neutralise PAF logistics.

Only military targets of PAF are attacked.

Kiyani and Zardari will be told that every nuke will be meet by 10 nukes and hence have
these guys the guts to press the button of what nuke assets are left?

...

Regards

In the fantasy scenario of Russia/US/Israel/India all attacking Pakistan, the only friend it has would be China which under these circumstances will not move a muscle. The scenarios you describe are "long-tail" scenarios, and statistically speaking, one can assign at the most equal probability for the event that Pak will (be able to) fire nukes or not. Result after nukes are fired depends on actual number of warheads reaching target via missiles/aircraft and impact. Hence result can vary between no additional response to full nuclear retaliation.

IMO the above scenarios are fantasy....
 
My comments are the greatest, I have yet to see any impressive analytical thinking from anyone, pay attention to my post on page 1 of this thread and the quote above. Maybe you students will learn something.

Re: missile shield, the most optimistic scenario is Pak complying with all US wishes and in return get rewarded by getting a shield, just like Poland. Bear in mind that Russia is not at all happy about the whole missile shield issue.
Pakistan on it's own does not have the resources or capabilities to build a shield by itself, as you indicate.
 
Pakistan will never be given an ABM facility howsoever it may wish for the same. As for the independence of the Pakistani Nuclear Forces, I have serious doubts that their weapons will be allowed to remain intact. I remember in Op Parakaram days in 2002, US had made plans to strike Pakistani Nuclear Forces in case of conventional hostilities starting up between India and Pakistan. In that scenario, how do you expect Pakistan to have "WMDs as last resort"?
 
My comments are the greatest, I have yet to see any impressive analytical thinking from anyone, pay attention to my post on page 1 of this thread and the quote above. Maybe you students will learn something.


Actually the problem is again not of equipment but of the software and the avionics on board the machines now that will be the deciding factor. It is well known that PLAAF is still years from being able to match IAF then I have my severe doubts as to PAF being able to match IAF for the first time post independence. Till 1971 PAF always had the qualitative edge and it was only sheer force and determination that carried the day for India. Now the situation is very much reveresed as IAF (even though depleted in numbers) is qualitatively much more superior and has the added advantage of using AWACs (A-50s and not the Phalcons yet) and other gizmos for real time plotting of PAF ACs. Also each SU-30 MKI has capability to act as an AWAC (limited role) on its own and can do the role of controlling a strike force in the same.

Recent posts by members have raised query over the interlinking of the SU-30s as US Red Flag exercises showed. The fact is IAF policy is not to use RADAR and Comm segments in such outings to full potential in order to reduce the plotting of electronic signatures emitted by ELINT ACs of US etc so as to inhibit development of counter-measures. The indegenisation of the same has been successful and interlinking of all ACs and Naval vessels as also majority of Armoured vehicles in IA has been achieved successfully and fully operationalised and used effectively.
 
Pakistan will never be given an ABM facility howsoever it may wish for the same. As for the independence of the Pakistani Nuclear Forces, I have serious doubts that their weapons will be allowed to remain intact. I remember in Op Parakaram days in 2002, US had made plans to strike Pakistani Nuclear Forces in case of conventional hostilities starting up between India and Pakistan. In that scenario, how do you expect Pakistan to have "WMDs as last resort"?

delusions are nice my friend! the US has been quoted as saying that they dont even know where pakistan's nukes are located. so a pre-emptive strike is out of the question. OTOH.....
 
My comments are the greatest, I have yet to see any impressive analytical thinking from anyone, pay attention to my post on page 1 of this thread and the quote above. Maybe you students will learn something.

thanks professor AIKaid!!!
 
I understand where you are coming from. While I do not underestimate the Chinese friendship in terms of trade benefit for China, it can not be a true friendship until their alliance is tested on the world stage. It has been tested and like before we see China playing Pakistan against it's competition. Let's not forget they are still a communist dictatorship and highly selfish and want our nation for it's strategic benefit, no different than the US wants it now or Soviet Union wanted it before.

The Chinese in their typical style advised Pakistan to absorb Indian pressure instead of sharply deflecting it according to Sehgal, which doesn't show anything about a deep friendship to my eyes especially in the midst of what is happening, which is far more serious than Indian threats of yesterday. Now India is coming at Pakistan with global support, China's duty was to thwart some of that with it's magnificent power on the world stage but it didn't.

Sehgal also mentioned that because of China, Russia looks at us in a better light. But the friendly Russian overtures were rejected at the highest levels and continue to be neglected, and as countries like India and Iran negotiate with their enemies, Pakistan continues to act as a lackey of the US while failing to project or secure it's own interests with others.

Ultimately, the way the Chinese voted at the UN bears resemblance to this entangling bear trap alliance with the US and our muffled responses after Mumbai. They have every right to do what fits their interests best, but not at the expense of Pakistan. We are stuck between the dragon and the eagle, now the cow wants a piece too. We can't be a strategic playground for everyone, but unfortunately the reality is that we very much are.
So true. Chinese intrests lie in total and complete hegemony over the region. Only then can their strategic interests(desires) be protected. Their whole way of waging war is so surgical and bloodless - pure economic muscle - the practically run the economies now of most erstwhile iron curtain satelites :- Azhebaijan, Krgeztan, Turmenistan, Tajikistan etc. You will be surprised to know that the Han chinese have even invested heavily into Siberian Russia ! Mongolia is now in the complete clutches of China. All this by investing into infrastructure, generously offering loans, bribes and whatever serves the purpose. In return they takeover and control all the resources of the nation. Hence effectively the economy and thereby the decisions of the nation.

Their drift to Pakistan is due to the fact that it stands against India in the subcontinent. Indian ofcouse being the only nation therein which prevents total chinese domination.

As for Russian help - they yesterday informed the GOI that Dawood's network was used to ferry the extremisits


Most of the discussion with Sehgal suggests to me that he is also critical of the lack of strategy/action shown by GoP.

Bending over has never been a Pakistani response before, but since 2001 it has become etched into policy and driven deep into our psyche with a hammer. The environment is being created to where this becomes our habit. Screw up everything on the world stage, then have to resort to bloody conflicts which could have been avoided with a bit of brains/guts/patriotism. Iran has been beating away Israeli/US and global pressure for years with one hand while fighting Israel/US through proxies with the other. Can Pakistan ever dare to do this? These superpowers will only respect us when we give them a taste of their own medicine, not huddle next to China for support and be let down, nor to show that all the macho and bravado of Pakistan is actually a giant myth and we are softer than a sleeping kitten.

I can agree

Anyways, I do thank you for your response and the video Blain.

Musharraf was perhaps the best thing that could have happened to Pakistan in the situation. I wish India had leaders like this to lead with equal zeal and patriotism.

The billion of dollars he had extricated as "aid" was a great boost to both your economy and millitary. With his diplomacy and tact Pakistan continued to hunt with the hounds and run with the hare's of the world.

Thankfully the people of Pakistan did India a favour and got rid of the man


Hawkeye - i agree with you to a certain extent but "hunting with the hounds, and running with the hares policy" has had its negative repurcusions like the FATA quagmire.
Ok - can you suggest a better response that the man could have had - given the circumstanses ? Extremisits were so deeply rooted into FATA, notwithstanding the advantage they took of the legendry Pathan hospitality. True now they bear deep hostilty.....

The common Indians understanding was that Musharraf would periodically hand over a few "dispensible" tribals to the US labelling them as "Taliban" or "Al Qaida"
I would like your point of view here

What about next time there is a Mumbai? Do you really think it is possible to place the responsibility on Pak government to finish terrorism when Indian navy can't even patrol it's own waters? Next time there is an act of terror and Pakistan is blamed again, what will India do to appease the nation?
A sad state of affairs with the Indian Coast guard. The navy though is equipped - though to its bare minimum.

If they Indian government must take out a percived threats it must not by brute force but by mossad style assasinations


Actually this thread is Can PAF fight on two or maybe multiple fronts ? Not any or many posts or analysis on this thread commenting on that, just bragging on PAF vs IAF.

If the above Two front theory came true I think it would follow the following sequence

Surge takes place in Aghanistan as UK now and US later withdraws troops from Iraq.

LET, JUD , AQ inspired fools trained in Pakistan attack US / Israeli interests in the same manner.

0400 hrs massive communication jamming of PAF and GOP assets followed by divisionary attack by USAF Special forces in Tribal areas.

A 1000 plane task force consisting of Israeli, US, NATO (maybe us and France only), Indian and Russian Force are launched at 0430 hrs from atleast 6 different directions on Pakistan with the primary aim of neutralising the PAF and the missile launch capacity.

Simultaneous launch from sea by US using cruise missiles to neutralise PAF logistics.

Only military targets of PAF are attacked.

Kiyani and Zardari will be told that every nuke will be meet by 10 nukes and hence have
these guys the guts to press the button of what nuke assets are left?

At 0600 hrs the second sortie of 1000 more planes of US, Russian, Israeli and Indian hit the remaining PAF targets.

Now how will PAF will behave and how long will it last is what the thread is about ?

Right. Lets have comments on the above or whatever scenario the original poster envisaged. Also whats China's reaction ?

Regards

Impressive scenario. I dont see it any other way.

A very valuable input from MuradK
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/17157-iaf-ouragan-captured-paf-5.html#post246604

Though I doubt this will ever occur. Considder this - I dont see Russia getting into this mess. India will hold back and let the others do the work for them. The US needs atleast the UK AND Saudi Arabia on their side. Israel needs support to attack. Let us not forget, they once had plans on the ground to attack Pak Nuke sites and had requested for covert Indian help to refuel but this was refused.
 
If Pakistan need to counter attack at different fronts then Pakistan need to have a very stron SAM system.

Those who wish a Russia/US/India/Israel attack actually are the brains of India because they realize that India alone can't fight Pakistan.

We in Pakistan have water issue, energy issue, ethnic issues and you name all other issues and we will raise our hands BUT at the same time we are proud to be Pakistanis and we love our flag.

A few days back we were not united but today we have forgotten everything and are united to face attacks.

We will be attacked and I am sure that India will not be alone but let me assure you that all attackers would feel the heat of our nuclear weapons.

We are not affraid of dying and we are not affraid of killing either.

SO PRAY FOR PEACE!
 
delusions are nice my friend! the US has been quoted as saying that they dont even know where pakistan's nukes are located. so a pre-emptive strike is out of the question. OTOH.....


Actually these may not exactly be deslusions. Its like this, there are more ACs in IAF than PAF, more missiles etc not adding Israel and US with former having pleaded for joint strikes at Pakistani Nuclear Facility since 1984 on on atleast 7 occassions. They are willing to contribute ACs for the same. As for US, it can not allow use of Nuclear weapons by Pakistan, it reflects on it about harping about non-proliferation while its own protege of 80s acquired them with full knowledge of US administration at that time.

Another aspect is that US installed the command and control system for these nukes under a deal with Prez Musharraf to secure them against theft by fundamentalists. So am pretty sure they have a great idea of where to find Pakistani Nukes.

As for India, there is enough intel about things in Pakistan. Especially about Taliban and al-Qaeda. In fact extensive Indo-US cooperation is on over situation in NWFP and FATA. Indian Special Forces are involved there in Afghanistan although in small numbers. Selective targets are being neutralised as also assets being placed in case needed.

Lastly usage of nuclear weapon is very difficult and impractical. I doubt very much Pakistan will launch Nuclear Weapons all over at the same time, instead it will try to minimize it at tactical level. It does not have the necessary amount of warheads to annihilate Indian cities (the population and urbanisation is simply too large in much more area than Pakistan) whereas the Indian strike will definitely be final and used to inflict complete damage. Even usage at tactical level means complete nuclear response by India. Also a very significant line in Indian Nuclear Doctrine " India wont be the first to use but wont be first to stop either"
 
Actually the problem is again not of equipment but of the software and the avionics on board the machines now that will be the deciding factor. It is well known that PLAAF is still years from being able to match IAF then I have my severe doubts as to PAF being able to match IAF for the first time post independence. Till 1971 PAF always had the qualitative edge and it was only sheer force and determination that carried the day for India.
typical of bharati fanboys...

tell me how Gnat, Hunter, Mig-21, su-7 are inferior to 18 F-86 plus 12 F-104 equiped with 1st generation aim-9 (which btw had only 20-30% sucsess rate) and 100 none heat seekers equiped F-86?
 
If the above Two front theory came true I think it would follow the following sequence..

Besides many inconsistencies and massive exaggerations in your plan, I think PAF would be in deep trouble if simultaneous multiple attacks are directed both from East and West…

As I said earlier that traditionally PAFs modus operandi, her infrastructures (airfields, MOBs/FOBs), distribution of assets (aircraft / radars) and training is more oriented to take a threat from East only. Although PAF did deal with attacks from West in late 80s and 90s but those were far less in magnitude comparing with any future attack from (lets say) US and any other western airforce…

While PAF will give tough fight in the beginning but over a period of time the attrition, neutralising of her infrastructure and destruction of command centres will take a heavy toll on her operations and performance: no doubts about that...

The multiple attacks is still a hypothesis and will it happen in reality, is anybody’s guess...Theory is always different from reality , and reality always comes with many surprises…:enjoy:
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom