What if China and Vietnam went to war?

[Nilgiri]

If India willingly transfer a bomb as a country, than it deserve to lose its bombs. No other nuclear powers would stand for that. And India is not even an official nuclear state.

a) It would be done by covert means....just like how the US/France gave the bomb to Israel how USSR aided China before the Sino/Soviet split and how China eventually aided/gave it to Pakistan...and how Pakistan then proliferated to a bunch of other countries through the "AQ Khan network".

b) Only Pakistan got a slap on its wrist (and AQ Khan took the hit personally and accepted becoming a scapegoat to protect his country) because the US/west were in a position to do so for that. However it never got punished by getting its nukes removed like you are salivating about in your fantasies. Regarding China's proliferation to Pakistan, the US has just grumbled and thats about it...just like how they grumbled when the USSR gave "aid" to China for their program. Same thing goes if India covertly aids Vietnam. The US was in no position back then to enforce anything regarding proliferation once it has happened...and is even in less of a position now. I mean look at the deal they have made with Iran even....all in the name of averting conflict.

c) India is officially a nuclear weapons state. It declared so and proved so during the 1998 tests. Same goes for Pakistan. There is no such thing as official/unofficial in reality. The legal jargon of the NPT with recognized nuclear state countries covers only those countries that signed those treaties. India and Pakistan have not signed them but are recognized worldwide as Nuclear weapon states. North Korea pulled out of the NPT and it also now a declared Nuclear Weapons state. Israel is the only one that never signed but has not declared either....but definitely has a nuclear arsenal. Therefore you can only use the word "unofficial" nuclear weapons state for Israel.

d) As for deserving to lose our bombs, we will get right in line after all those countries that have deserved it way before us (including the US) for covert "unproven" proliferation. No moral double standards please.

e) I see you have replaced ugly fatty in your display pic. Too many jokes regarding her for you to handle?

 

[Abotani]

Why do you think Vietnam would need Indian advisers in a war with China?

So that vietnamese may learn the art of "running like hell from Chinese troops". Indians perfected this art in 1962 with a trial by fire.

Simple, really.

 

[Dungeness]

So that vietnamese may learn the art of "running like hell from Chinese troops". Indians perfected this art in 1962 with a trial by fire.

Simple, really.

I think this "Superpower" thing has already intoxicated many young Indian minds, and they would just subconsciously think India is superior to Vietnam or many countries for that matter, so it is automatically in the position to "ADVISE". Really Interesting mentality indeed.

 

[Abotani]

I think this "Superpower" thing has already intoxicated many young Indian minds, and they would just subconsciously think India is superior to Vietnam or many countries for that matter, so it is automatically in the position to "ADVISE". Really Interesting mentality indeed.

We see that all the time. For eg- Indians on internet usually talk down on Bhutan or Sri lanka as "poorer countries" until reality hits them and they have a massive panic attack.

Now being serious and on topic, I can't think of anything that Indians can either advise or supply to Vietnam in case of war with China. The premise of Indian advise is even more laughable as the vietnamese, for all their faults have a better military history.
The only thing Indians can teach them is how to surrender or run away, for admittedly viets don;t do that a lot while Indians do.

 

[Dungeness]

We see that all the time. For eg- Indians on internet usually talk down on Bhutan or Sri lanka as "poorer countries" until reality hits them and they have a massive panic attack.

Now being serious and on topic, I can't think of anything that Indians can either advise or supply to Vietnam in case of war with China. The premise of Indian advise is even more laughable as the vietnamese, for all their faults have a better military history.
The only thing Indians can teach them is how to surrender or run away, for admittedly viets don;t do that a lot while Indians do.

And then, they become so defensive and abusive at times. Sometimes, it feels like there are two parallel India's, one is First World and belongs to Brahmins, and one third world belongs to Dalits. Internet Brahmins certainly don't know how majority of their countrymen live their life, or pretend they don't?

That is what I wanted to say, but tried hard not to be too offensive. At the time of Sino-Vietnam war, there were still many Vietnamese officers in front line, who were trained in China during their war with the US, so both fought in similar way and using similar tactics. They were battle hardened, fearless, and in many ways better fighters, considering PLA's lack of training during Cultural Revolution. 1962 was complete different story.

 

[Nilgiri]

Sometimes, it feels like there are two parallel India's, one is First World and belongs to Brahmins, and one third world belongs to Dalits. Internet Brahmins certainly don't know how majority of their countrymen live their life, or pretend they don't?

Its a harsh reality that will take time to fully sort out. But you are falling into a classic trap that all Brahmins are rich and powerful and Dalits are all weak and poor. The reality is already changed so much from before and will continue to change.

I have seen Brahmins begging and starving not too far away from the where I was born....and I have seen dalits drive expensive cars and being snobby and overbearing and arrogant to others much less fortunate...again just around the corner.

Slowly India will materialise fully into simply have and have nots (and hopefully by that time very few have nots), once we have ridden ourselves of the increasingly false stereotypes and the policies that enforce them politically.

Only Indians know the reality of their country, whatever some may seem to project to you on an online forum. There are some that live in cocoons and have the convenience to deny various realities altogether....but I doubt many frequent defence forums to begin with.

1962 was complete different story.

And 1967 was again a different one.

 

[Abotani]

And then, they become so defensive and abusive at times. Sometimes, it feels like there are two parallel India's, one is First World and belongs to Brahmins, and one third world belongs to Dalits. Internet Brahmins certainly don't know how majority of their countrymen live their life, or pretend they don't?

That is what I wanted to say, but tried hard not to be too offensive. At the time of Sino-Vietnam war, there were still many Vietnamese officers in front line, who were trained in China during their war with the US, so both fought in similar way and using similar tactics. They were battle hardened, fearless, and in many ways better fighters, considering PLA's lack of training during Cultural Revolution. 1962 was complete different story.

Which is why I find Indian claims of "advising" other nation's militaries laughable. They only have a decent track record against the Pakistanis. Both India and Pakistan and their respective armies were basically the British IA split up on religion. So victory or defeat against "sister" branches hardly counts as military prowess tbh.

Indian military has failed laughably whenever faced with anything other than British creations. IPKF mission being a prime example..no need to bring in PLA tbh which was and is head and shoulder's above IA.

That delusion has it's root in India seeing itself as the regional hegemon and whenever reality points otherwise, they resort to do an 'apple and oranges' by bringing in their personal or family wealth in comparison to entire nations. India and it's paradoxes are certainly bewildering. To be candid, India still is for me. The amount of brainwashed, delusional thinking prevalent among it's educated is terrifying, particularly when one wonders how the uneducated are if the privileged few are err... different from their peers in other countries.

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

What if China and Vietnam went to war??
Lol. China will find herself in a situation of sheep yard.

 

[Zhang Fan]

这帖子并不好，楼主小学生？

go bark and bray somewhere else,sunshine

 

[CN.Black]

Many viets think that China will lose in a war with vietnam.LOL.PLA has the most deadly ground force in the world.We can easily kill the viet soldiers with gabage secondhand weapons.Actually,we have no need to fight with vietnam in land.We just need to sink the little boats of VN and occupy the islands just like we did in 1988.

 

[Mariner3823]

No one can compite china... it wil jst conquer vetnam in no time... and wil convert it into a PLA base

 

[Dungeness]

Its a harsh reality that will take time to fully sort out. But you are falling into a classic trap that all Brahmins are rich and powerful and Dalits are all weak and poor. The reality is already changed so much from before and will continue to change.

I have seen Brahmins begging and starving not too far away from the where I was born....and I have seen dalits drive expensive cars and being snobby and overbearing and arrogant to others much less fortunate...again just around the corner.

Slowly India will materialise fully into simply have and have nots (and hopefully by that time very few have nots), once we have ridden ourselves of the increasingly false stereotypes and the policies that enforce them politically.

Only Indians know the reality of their country, whatever some may seem to project to you on an online forum. There are some that live in cocoons and have the convenience to deny various realities altogether....but I doubt many frequent defence forums to begin with.

Well, there are exceptions to every rules, besides personal wealth may not have anything to do with the prejudice and discrimination in India society. I am glad the reality is changing and would like to see more progress in this regard, but the recent trend seems to suggest otherwise.

Paragraph in bold is a wishful thinking. The caste system is embedded into Hinduism, and it is not going away as long as majority of your population are still considering themselves as Hindu.

The statement in Italic Bold is true to a degree, but there are many conflict versions of reality, otherwise, how you are going to explain the fact there are furious debates among Indian members about India's reality? You don't see the mountain because you are in the mountain, and all you see may be just a boulder in front of you.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the best for India and its people.

 

[Nilgiri]

I am glad the reality is changing and would like to see more progress in this regard, but the recent trend seems to suggest otherwise.

Problem is the word "trend" is simply what we see from the media. On the ground reality can be drastically different.

Paragraph in bold is a wishful thinking. The caste system is embedded into Hinduism, and it is not going away as long as majority of your population are still considering themselves as Hindu.

So tell me how its embedded and where it is embedded? Is it doctrinal/dogma/codified/required blind following? Or is it interpretative from clearly man made social norms, applicable for a time period under certain conditions (but has been warped and distorted for various reasons)? If the former a violent revolution/overthrow is needed...no choice. If the latter, education is the better bet.

I believe its the latter given how many Hindus with education since the 19th century (and examples go way before that actually) have been fighting the ideological basis of Caste on a discrimination front from within the Hindu world itself.....and their efforts are paying off slowly.

Discrimination will always persist for a long time, but it can be mitigated with economic growth. It is simply too much of a complicated problem to deal for a govt by micromanaging. Best to create a COMMON legal framework, enforce that to the best of ability...and focus on enabling economic opportunities for the poor masses.

The 40+ years of suffocating economic rule from 1947 to 1991 trumpeted its own horn that at least it was creating a "secular" "equal" society through a fanciful notion of a grass roots revolution....

Problem is that this only sounds good on paper....and it was not backed up by any meaningful quick mass literacy campaign. The literacy rate of India only grew by somewhat large amounts starting in the 80s and 90s and continues to this day (adult literacy is about 75% now and youth literacy is above 90% - whereas for most of India's independence they were dreadfully low).

It is this combination with the greater economic freedom (relatively speaking to before) that is doing much more for social equality than the 40 years that preceded it.

When you ask time and again why the newer generation of India is more "conservative" instead of liberal - that is really not the case....because the truth was simply quite suppressed before...so an "aura" of high nosed liberalism existed among certain elite, some who you still see today even on this forum....and they get "shocked" and angry about their skewed vision being rocked when the masses and neo-middle class start giving loud opinions of their own and clamour for their economic and political space and rights - mostly on the basis for absolute equality instead of favouritism and nepotism.

It is in India's workplaces where the barriers are broken down, not in some office of a politician sitting in Delhi complaining about "communal riots". In call centers, factories and other workplaces, there is much more going on IN PRACTICE than what the media likes to latch onto and project IN THEORY. Person by person, bit by bit, stereotype by stereotype....which then has a multiplier effect.

I personally know of low caste and Dalit workers in call centers and universities....the caste issue for them simply comes well after being able to gain economic livelihood and meaningful dignity. It will take a much longer time for such social divisions to be erased all together at every level, after all even in Japan...many had and continue to have a social complex against the Burakumin "caste" well after it became an affluent society.....but the worst forms of discrimination were tackled by sheer economic and education policies. The rest will have to come with time. We are not going to do a cultural revolution like China, that is out of the question....what we will do is continue to increase education rates in quantity and quality....and keep increasing the economic opportunities for everyone as much as possible.

I am a firm believer that its economic/education conditions that promote and enforce Caste.....and not the other way around. I base this on previous caste fluidity/non-issue that existed in golden periods of Indian civilisation where Caste was more interpreted as stratification of labour by inherent virtue rather than a birthright.

The statement in Italic Bold is true to a degree, but there are many conflict versions of reality, otherwise, how you are going to explain the fact there are furious debates among Indian members about India's reality?

That is simply the nature of India. Its like taking medieval Europe and uniting them suddenly in year "X" into one country after much earlier continuous turmoil and time distance from previous inherent domestic unity. You think X + 70 years is suddenly going to be a quiet organised affair? That will simply be the time things will probably be at its most noisy given there was an artificial silence imposed on it for the 1st 40 years in the hope that will make people unaware of the real issues that govern any matter of society. Ignoring and wishing away the problems is not going to solve anything....and is actually way more dangerous....and it almost led to a bankrupting and even collapse of India.

We do not have the relative homogeneity of China....nor are we a developed country like the US that can look down its nose and afford to be snobby about details of democracy and interpretation of human rights...that is just the reality of the situation.

So India will truly be the first massive non-homogenous country (in fact probably the most diverse country in the world) that goes through development to become an affluent one via its own methods that it will keep changing/reforming as time goes by. If parts of it seem confusing/negative and suspicious to outsiders....so be it. Thats the reality of India....and frankly we are concerned about many other things daily much more than the perception of outsiders for the most part.

Don't get me wrong, I wish the best for India and its people.

Its why I am engaging with you in the first place.

Anyway bro dont you think we have strayed off topic enough? This is China-Vietnam thread. You are welcome to start another thread where we can discuss this further....or if mods/members are fine with it continuing here....i guess we can do that too.

 

[Dungeness]

Problem is the word "trend" is simply what we see from the media. On the ground reality can be drastically different.



So tell me how its embedded and where it is embedded? Is it doctrinal/dogma/codified/required blind following? Or is it interpretative from clearly man made social norms, applicable for a time period under certain conditions (but has been warped and distorted for various reasons)? If the former a violent revolution/overthrow is needed...no choice. If the latter, education is the better bet.

I believe its the latter given how many Hindus with education since the 19th century (and examples go way before that actually) have been fighting the ideological basis of Caste on a discrimination front from within the Hindu world itself.....and their efforts are paying off slowly.

Discrimination will always persist for a long time, but it can be mitigated with economic growth. It is simply too much of a complicated problem to deal for a govt by micromanaging. Best to create a COMMON legal framework, enforce that to the best of ability...and focus on enabling economic opportunities for the poor masses.

The 40+ years of suffocating economic rule from 1947 to 1991 trumpeted its own horn that at least it was creating a "secular" "equal" society through a fanciful notion of a grass roots revolution....

Problem is that this only sounds good on paper....and it was not backed up by any meaningful quick mass literacy campaign. The literacy rate of India only grew by somewhat large amounts starting in the 80s and 90s and continues to this day (adult literacy is about 75% now and youth literacy is above 90% - whereas for most of India's independence they were dreadfully low).

It is this combination with the greater economic freedom (relatively speaking to before) that is doing much more for social equality than the 40 years that preceded it.

When you ask time and again why the newer generation of India is more "conservative" instead of liberal - that is really not the case....because the truth was simply quite suppressed before...so an "aura" of high nosed liberalism existed among certain elite, some who you still see today even on this forum....and they get "shocked" and angry about their skewed vision being rocked when the masses and neo-middle class start giving loud opinions of their own and clamour for their economic and political space and rights - mostly on the basis for absolute equality instead of favouritism and nepotism.

It is in India's workplaces where the barriers are broken down, not in some office of a politician sitting in Delhi complaining about "communal riots". In call centers, factories and other workplaces, there is much more going on IN PRACTICE than what the media likes to latch onto and project IN THEORY. Person by person, bit by bit, stereotype by stereotype....which then has a multiplier effect.

I personally know of low caste and Dalit workers in call centers and universities....the caste issue for them simply comes well after being able to gain economic livelihood and meaningful dignity. It will take a much longer time for such social divisions to be erased all together at every level, after all even in Japan...many had and continue to have a social complex against the Burakumin "caste" well after it became an affluent society.....but the worst forms of discrimination were tackled by sheer economic and education policies. The rest will have to come with time. We are not going to do a cultural revolution like China, that is out of the question....what we will do is continue to increase education rates in quantity and quality....and keep increasing the economic opportunities for everyone as much as possible.

I am a firm believer that its economic/education conditions that promote and enforce Caste.....and not the other way around. I base this on previous caste fluidity/non-issue that existed in golden periods of Indian civilisation where Caste was more interpreted as stratification of labour by inherent virtue rather than a birthright.



That is simply the nature of India. Its like taking medieval Europe and uniting them suddenly in year "X" into one country after much earlier continuous turmoil and time distance from previous inherent domestic unity. You think X + 70 years is suddenly going to be a quiet organised affair? That will simply be the time things will probably be at its most noisy given there was an artificial silence imposed on it for the 1st 40 years in the hope that will make people unaware of the real issues that govern any matter of society. Ignoring and wishing away the problems is not going to solve anything....and is actually way more dangerous....and it almost led to a bankrupting and even collapse of India.

We do not have the relative homogeneity of China....nor are we a developed country like the US that can look down its nose and afford to be snobby about details of democracy and interpretation of human rights...that is just the reality of the situation.

So India will truly be the first massive non-homogenous country (in fact probably the most diverse country in the world) that goes through development to become an affluent one via its own methods that it will keep changing/reforming as time goes by. If parts of it seem confusing/negative and suspicious to outsiders....so be it. Thats the reality of India....and frankly we are concerned about many other things daily much more than the perception of outsiders for the most part.



Its why I am engaging with you in the first place.

Anyway bro dont you think we have strayed off topic enough? This is China-Vietnam thread. You are welcome to start another thread where we can discuss this further....or if mods/members are fine with it continuing here....i guess we can do that too.

Agree, we have been off topic for quite some time. Thanks for your long reply, I will go line by line later.

 

[oproh]

If such scenario will actually happen, then RIP vietnam.