What If 24 Su-35 bought by China are for PAF ? Just my thoughts

[Blue Marlin]

i thought we put the su-35 to bed already!
not going tot happen, china paid 2 billion for 24 jets thats too expensive for pakistan, just under a third of its defence budget. still it would make sense to get an su-35 or a higher caliber jet.

 

[Sanchez]

Some said that Paf pilots are test flying the FC-31. That's it!

 

[araz]

India will definitely press Russia to stop all logistic support to PAF Su-35. Retrofit them with Chinese avionice and then sell to PAF, so PAF will then continue have Chinese logstic support and uses Chinese ammunition. Problem solves.

What about end user certification and spares and servicing. Do you think that China or Russia will not have problems explaining how air crafts from one country have ended up in a third country.
My point of view is that the fact that the Chinese have SU35s makes it easier for PAF to acquire spares and also alter the SUs as per PAF requirement. Therefore there is business opportunity for both countries in China buying these birds.
With all due respects to the Chinese avaition industry I would like to see some independent confirmation before I believe their claims about WS10B. I can bet you anything they would not be buying the SUs if the JXX series had ironed all their problems regarding engines out. Iwish our Chinese brethren all the success in the world but it seems unlikely to me.
A

 

[Ultima Thule]

oh please !! There is a reason why J20 always appear in photoshopped take-offs and "leaked reports". They need the technology to make it atleast a 4.5+gen fighter if not a 5th gen fighter.

If you have butthurt, use the burnol on butts, its a pain killer, it is not your concern Whether J-20 1th gen fighter or 11th gen fighter, it is in devlopment stage, get a life Mr

 

[Windjammer]

@Beast Very interesting observation and analyst, albeit, Pakistan interested in the SU-35 has been making headlines lately, however it's also a fact that China has also been negotiating for these for the last five years where as Gawadar and other deals were only signed this year. !!!

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

Su-35 or J-16. Pakistan Airforce will announce it on the right time after procuring because Indian Airforce can be kept away by few dozen of these jets, so announcement is crucial and it will surely be announced.

 

[dadeechi]

@Beast Very interesting observation and analyst, albeit, Pakistan interested in the SU-35 has been making headlines lately, however it's also a fact that China has also been negotiating for these for the last five years where as Gawadar and other deals were only signed this year. !!!

That is the point. Both Gwadar and SU-35 deals going through hand-in-hand at the same time.

 

[Beast]

@Beast Very interesting observation and analyst, albeit, Pakistan interested in the SU-35 has been making headlines lately, however it's also a fact that China has also been negotiating for these for the last five years where as Gawadar and other deals were only signed this year. !!!

Dont you find its too coincidence of timing of how all those events I mention unfold in sequence? Why China only start buying Su-35 after China acquire 40years lease of Gwadar port?

What about enduser certification and spares and servicing. D9 you think that China or Russiawill not have problems explaining how air crafts from one country have ended up in a third country.
My p9int of view is that th3 fact that the Chinese have SU3Ts makez it easier for PAF to acquire spares and also alter the SUs as per PAF requirement. Therefore there is business opportunity for both countries in China buying these birds.
With all due respects to the Chinese avaition industry I would like to see some independent confirmation before I believe their claims about WS10B. I can net you anything they would not be buying the SUs if the JXX series had ironed all their problems regarding engines out. Iwish our Chinese brethren all the success in the world but it seems unlikely to me.
A

Its easier to avoid public eye of spare support but you are not able to fool with ammunition. India do know Russian ammunition and Chinese ammunition. But do India know its Chinese spare or Russian spare continue support Su-35?

 

[dadeechi]

I know many will think my conclusion is daring and outrageous but please read through my well thought analysis. From the events to date, you all can slowly see how the events unfold and how are they related one to another especially the date are so close.

First of all, lets look at this event
Pakistan set to sign 40-year lease for Gwadar port with Chinese company: officials - The Express Tribune

President Xi visit Pakistan in april 2015 to sign the mega USD46 billion deal that is one of the largest and most ambition plan for China Pakistan. A plan China hope can boast Pakistan economy while at the same time ,make China less reliance on Strait of Malacca for import of fuel. Despite the massive investment, Pakistan is a sovereign nation and regards to responsible of protecting Gwadar port still lies on Pakistan.

The best way to protect this port is to have an fighter aircraft capable of neutralise coming airthreat from huge Indian Ocean while at the same time capable of striking the enemy at a projected range. These puts Su-27 series aircraft in the foreline. It is an aircraft with exceptional range given its huge size, massive payload of at least 9tons ammunition carries. Most of all, a very agile aircraft despite it huge airframe. The twin engine will also ensure better survival in case one engine breaks down. Su-35 touted the most advance Sukhoi series with air superiority, ground and sea attack is an attractive option for PAF. While we do know China produces the Su-27 series aircraft domestically under J-XX series with license from Russian for 200 airframe. But in terms of license issue interpretation to China and Russian is always an issue for both in the 2000s times. It was finally settle in 2008 when Russian president Dmitry Medvedev visited China and both agree on the issue. China was allowed to continue produce as much J-XX series of Su-27 lineage as she deemed but not allow to export any of this lineage to compete with Russian.
Russia and China Dispute Intellectual Property - Kommersant Moscow
This will means Pakistan is not able to get any of China modify or made Su-27 series aircraft and the only possible way to obtain such heavy weight fighter is to buy from Russian made.


Then we look at another piece of interesting news this September.
Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Russian Deputy FM comfirmed interest and talks regard to purchase of SU-35 by PAF although not much detailed is mention due to the sensitivity of selling Russian most advance Su-27 series to PAF against Russian biggest arm buyer ,India. Russian is eager to expand its shrinking aviation export and the fact, IAF is looking more towards the west with purchase of 36 Rafale. Russian needs to look at all potential customers and PAF is definitely one of them. Russian in past has export a number of weapon systems or equipment to PAF like RD-93 engines, Mi-17 and possible Mi-35 gunship with success. RD-93 engine which is critical to JF-17 project is only possible through the blessing of China acting as middle man to shut India complaint of Russia export weapons to Pakistan, India arch rival.

Finally, we look at this new.
China will get first Russian Su-35 fighters in 2016
China after talking about buying Su-35 for almost 5 years finally inked the deal recently and most importantly, the urgent timing of the delivery in 2016 plus a small amount of SU-35 purchase, raise an eyebrow.

Why China purchase only 24 Su-35 since China is such a big and rich country? She definitely needs more than 24 Su-35 if she needs to defend her land and sea. But some critics will argue China purchase a minimum of 24 Su-35 just to get their hands on reverse engineering of critical component like 117S engine. But lets look at some other facts.
国产心脏终于行了：太行发动机一技术让美羡慕 - 中网资讯中心

This is an extract from an interview with Lin zuoming, Chairman of AVIC who comment on WS-10 'Taihang" engine series. He mention WS-10 series engine in the latest version WS-10B has surpassed Russian engine technology in terms of lifespan, performance and reliability and claim the latest version of Taihang engine can produce 140Ktons while Russian 117S is just a slight mere of 142Ktons thrust as compare.
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would China spend so much trouble just to get an almost similar performance and spec engine? Then some critics will argue besides the engine, the other sub systems may interested the Chinese like PESA radar onboard. Lets look at another aircraft currently in development and will enter series soon.

View attachment 273536

You can see the aircraft spotted with WS-10 series engine and a slanted nose cone suggesting AESA radar. China produced J-XX series aircraft are using high level of composite and 3D printing which proves the airframe superior in any aspect compare to Russian Su-35 in terms of structure strength,weight and lifespan.

Chinese Military Aviation: Fighters II

Another aircraft with slanted cone and is due to be in service is the J-10B which comfirms spotted with an AESA radar proves J-11D has the same AESA radar(more powerful due to bigger size)from the same institute.
View attachment 273537

Then this question comes into your mind. Why would China purchase 24 Su-35 when China has better option like J-11D? I think I need not tell you the answer where these 24 Su-35 will go to.

And please do not ask for comfirmation of China purchase 24 Su-35 transfer to PAF. Since this is an under table deal. There will not be any official statement regards the transfer. You will see it when these Su-35 started working on PAF airbase or spotted with PAF ensign. By going these route, Russian can shelve all problem to the Chinese and need no answer to India allegation of export advance weapon system to Pakistan while at the same time opening up another market for its shrinking aviation export and market the Su-35 for more potential customers.

Excellent. I had already mentioned this in the below post.

Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM | Page 59

 

[Beast]

LMAO.Pakistanis are jumping at brain farts now.

I hope you dont get heart attack when you see Su-35 in PAF ensign soon

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

A bird in hand is better than two in a bush. Right now for Pakistan JF17 is the bird in hand and Su 35 is the bird in bush.

 

[Mav3rick]

I understand this is a defense forum but that does not mean we need to view every development under shadows of a war. CPEC obviously may mean a lot to both the countries involved but that does not mean India will attack Gwadar port even if Pakistan is successful in another jihadi attack on India (which will be THE ONLY reason for war, atleast for India).

On the contrary, to the dislike of many Pakistanis, CPEC will help India more than it will them, atleast as far as trade between India and China is concerned. Lets face it, trade is increasing and it will continue to rise in a pretty big way between China and India. China can easily arm-twist Pak by sending its goods through CPEC to India and of course China will allow Indian goods back to China through the same route. That is the beauty of the CPEC to India. All though it is in PAK, it's China that can call the shots.

If the scenario mentioned by the OP is plausible the scenario I mention is reality. Trade is what will direct relations between India and China. Alas, China will use Pak directly and India will to but indirectly.

Hence the awesome flankers will remain with China since they actually need it to guard the sky above all the artificial islands they are building. The South China sea and dangers around it are far higher than CPEC.

Focusing only on the CPEC portion of your post, trade b/w any country through CPEC will benefit Pakistan more then not having CPEC because all trade through that route will earn taxes directly and livelihood indirectly as all those economic activities will boost offshoot jobs and businesses, they will sprout new cities of international standards and will lift the lives and status of Baluchistan to that of UAE or Singapore in 15-20 years of establishment.

All this will be immensely beneficial to the rest of the Pakistan as well. Economic growth will slowly and gradually filter out injustices, terrorism and frustrations and will give way to growth, trade and prosperity thus making Pakistan stronger and even more important to all the super powers. A stable and war-free Asia is in the best interest of us all, including India.

 

[thepakistani]

Any how SU35 is the best possible choice of present time with most sophisticated airframe onboard sys and v powerful super cruising engines. But why pesa radar instead of AESA radar?
2ndly if we are going for RD93 overall factory. Mig 35 is comparable to SU35, plus same RD33 engine as of JF 17 with different gearbox location only, it would have been a better consideration for PAF with far cheaper maintenance and eventually would get RD93 MA with 100kn for JF17.

 

[Providence]

India will definitely press Russia to stop all logistic support to PAF Su-35. Retrofit them with Chinese avionice and then sell to PAF, so PAF will then continue have Chinese logstic support and uses Chinese ammunition. Problem solves.

Right. Why not give your super duper J11Ds considering that it's air-frame is way better designed (allegedly) and china's avionics are anyway going to be needed ?

As for the engine department, Chinese posters had us believe that WS-1X are way better than the saturn 117S ?

 

[SipahSalar]

I disagree with OP. I don't think this is how international transactions work.