What has Democracy solve for India? Lesson for us.

[indushek]

These were not insinuations, an act to which I would not stoop. I will not hint at wrong-doing, unless I am able to show that there was serious ground for my thinking so.

It started with a feeling of irritation, which was sought to be converted to some school-boyish humour, probably not the best way to make my objections known. Once the exchanges started, I was angry enough to seek a direct confrontation of what I thought at the time was at one level a lie, at another level a display of an egregious lack of respect for the rest of us.

If it was an honest mistake, and you have said this with emphasis a second time now, I have no problem with accepting your word for it and burying the matter once and for all.



Please calm down.

I accept that it was an honest mistake, and take back what I said about it before.



Again, and this repeatedly approaching a person is not an exercise that I am accustomed to do, I hope you will continue to participate.



This needs an explanation.

If we do not learn from our mistakes, we will be doomed to suffer from those again and again.

Neither the Indian Army under Indian leadership, nor the Pakistan Army under Pakistani leadership has ever fought a serious war. The biggest and longest confrontation has been at Army level, involving several Corps, for periods of time never exceeding 60 days.

To learn what we are up against, look up the PLA in Wikipedia. I suggest Wikipedia for no other reason than that I want you to get a quick overview of the matter. Personally, I approached the matter from a different angle, from the angle of the CPC, and of its struggle against the KMT on the one hand, and against the Japanese Army in its full strength on the other. It got to the stage where knowing where and how a topic was described in Mao Ze Dong's On War was easy. That book is an equal of Sun Tzu, I think, only written for modern times, to instruct military leaders of all kinds, but with an emphasis on guerrilla warfare: the Great Helmsman was a military expert, just some degree short of a genius like Napoleon or Alexander.

The PLA seems to have degenerated very subtly in terms of strategic thinking and general ability at war-fighting, ironically, even as its technical and logistical capabilities grew. While it remains one of the world's most formidable forces, with a clear vision of its future in warfare, and where it wishes to be at different times in the future, there is that nagging sense that it has lost the thinking edge it had over everyone else, including the Americans.

This is, of course, my personal opinion.

I came to that conclusion after a very careful comparison of the PLA campaigns in 62 against the Indian Army, and its campaigns against the Vietnamese. A comparative study of the two is very revealing for an Indian.

Even while I hope and will actively work for a peaceful resolution to all Sino-Indian issues, if peaceful resolution is not possible, for whatever reason, we should not be found unprepared for a repeat of the 'punishment' that the PLA handed out.

To be prepared to face this possibility, we need to have our military doctrine in place - it is nowhere visible, other than that of the Indian Navy doctrine - integrated land and air troops, where relevant, integrated land, air and sea troops, always under unified command, equipped completely to deliver mission objectives, and always trained, trained extensively, for their role. In addition, I humbly submit that we need to visualise possible future scenarios and review the disposition of our forces: out of 33 active divisions in the IA, nearly 22 are deployed against Pakistan, and 11 against China! How ridiculous! Nothing wrong with the Western front, but to combat a possible concentration of 25 to 30 PLA divisions with a strength of 11 divisions is a joke. And finally, building infrastructure in the entire north-east and the north-west has become quite critical. This includes road, rail and aircraft landing strips; it includes more electricity, more work-shops, more technical training institutes, more civil engineers, more of everything!

Regarding other aspects of my dealing with any national group, it has been my effort to give them the respect that is their due,whether at the level of a group or at an individual level.

Finally, I was never allowed, either by the thread originator or by any other participant, in spite of several hints, to set down my views on the original claims by other side to the pieces of rock that caused this skirmish. Pity. I had done some sincere research, the results are interesting, and all that will have to wait.

To sum up, relations with and attitudes towards 'Chinese' members of the forum (many of them Canadians, Hong Kong citizens, or Singaporeans, British, Americans or Australasians) was not part of this discussion, but the matter having been raised, I claim my right to respond to it.

If being polite and civil to an entire group, while acknowledging the right of the PRC to have been heard with greater attention and respect, and less devious manoeuvring for better position, without denying the rights of the Indian state in the original matter, beneath the veneer of inappropriate behaviour and unnecessary sly behaviour, is 'siding with the Chinese', that is a display of jingoism which I reject. On the other hand, it seems to me to be the only self-respecting way to behave.

But these are all personal choices, and we display our inner selves in making these choices. I have no problems with what others display of themselves, I am sure of what I wish to display and why. "Suaviter in modo, fortiter in re."



The explanation was passionate and eloquent, and personally speaking, convincing. Utterly convincing.

Your decision on how long to spend on line is your personal decision. I agree that more than two hours on line can be harmful. But nobody can order you off the board or on the board. This can no longer be a reason for staying away, given the explanation offered and accepted. It is surely better to participate and to quell the visceral exchanges by behaving in a rational and scrupulously factual manner instead.

Oh my god well thats what came to my mouth when i saw this reply. How do u write so eloquently , i really admire it. Well u have understood my POV and i am happy.

I will definitely would go over the past thread of concentrating forces to read ur posts once again and also take up the wiki first as suggested by you for a quick read.

True one cannot just run away to escape the problems , one has to face them. However i will reduce my time spending here and will keep away particularly from flaming threads.

Will be looking forward to your excellent posts (more like editorials in The Hindu i should say which i love to read) in future too.

 

[IND151]

What has democracy given India?? A lot of western Ashirward and still lagging behind much younger countries...

triilion $ economy!

 

[applesauce]

triilion $ economy!

ummm india was a democracy since its birth but didnt really start to grow till the 90's and china a authoritarian country has a 5.7 trillion dollar economy right now starting from an even lower base than india, if anything(that is im not saying there is correlation) democracy hindered it.

 

[JayAtl]

Unlike Canada and the US. Indians were forced to adopt British democracy. It wasn't by will. which makes them inferior compared to other states like the UK and France which sought democracy at their own discretion. The same goes for South Korea and Japan, of which one forfeited its right to self-defence and the other forced to adopt a foreigner drafted constitution.

how did we get our independence and was it a democratic rule in India before that? and what the hell is lesser democracy vs. some higher one? not sure if you're going for the stuck on stupid award here.

if we take your logic, Pakistan which is a democracy again- makes them what a low democracy?

Democracies DONT start wars...

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Unlike Canada and the US. Indians were forced to adopt British democracy. It wasn't by will. which makes them inferior compared to other states like the UK and France which sought democracy at their own discretion.

That is typical stereotype for the stormfront cabal.

Nationwide elections for provincial assemblies were held in 1937. Despite initial hesitation, the Indian National Congress took part in the elections and won victories in seven of the eleven provinces of British India



If you couldn't follow the above text ,In simple terms We did choose our respective leaders through elections and hence naturally believed in what they believed was good for us.

And none regret it considering our nation is still intact.

By the way Pakistan too was under British Raj,it democracy was forced upon them,how come they chose to be an Islamic state.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

ummm india was a democracy since its birth but didnt really start to grow till the 90's and china a authoritarian country has a 5.7 trillion dollar economy right now starting from an even lower base than india, if anything(that is im not saying there is correlation) democracy hindered it.

Your right the trillion $ economy is a result of the economic reforms ,
not democracy.

But the blame being put on democracy is not entirely right,even though with multi-party democratic system things move at a snails pace.

Politics is one part of it ,but the major one is bureaucratic and red tape mess.

naturally seeing the Ease of doing business index ranking of India is far lower than many developing nations.

 

[Nanbaenda]

What has Democracy solve for India?

1)freedom of speech and expression;
2)assemble peaceably and without arms;
3)form associations or unions;
4)move freely throughout the territory of India;
5)reside and settle in any part of the territory
of India
6)practise any profession, or to carry on any
occupation, trade or business
7)practise any religion to their wish

 

[Bang Galore]

Your right the trillion $ economy is a result of the economic reforms ,
not democracy.

But the blame being put on democracy is not entirely right,even though with multi-party democratic system things move at a snails pace.

Politics is one part of it ,but the major one is bureaucratic and red tape mess.

naturally seeing the Ease of doing business index ranking of India is far lower than many developing nations.

Democracy wasn't the problem. Till the 1980's the Chinese followed communism strictly & it put them in the same boat as India whose leaders followed socialism. When both these economic ideologies were dumped overboard, both prospered. China started in 1980's & India started in 1990's. China authoritarian rulers have been able to push development more easily than India's leaders have because of their ability to brush aside opposition. That can be the only argument against democracy. However in many cases, people have had their voices heard & their concerns addressed. See that as a better way of development than the Chinese model ( for India, not speaking for china).We are a too disparate people to listen & obey central diktats.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Democracy wasn't the problem. Till the 1980's the Chinese followed communism strictly & it put them in the same boat as India whose leaders followed socialism. When both these economic ideologies were dumped overboard, both prospered. China started in 1980's & India started in 1990's. China authoritarian rulers have been able to push development more easily than India's leaders have because of their ability to brush aside opposition. That can be the only argument against democracy. However in many cases, people have had their voices heard & their concerns addressed. See that as a better way of development than the Chinese model ( for India, not speaking for china).We are a too disparate people to listen & obey central diktats.

Yup! Its the essence of democracy at the end of the day,everyone is fine with the decision.

 

[JayAtl]

Democracies DON'T start wars..

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Democracies DON'T start wars..

Let's look at the past ten years alone. America started the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war, Israel started the Gaza war and the Lebanon war.

So I can't really agree with that analysis.

There are plenty of good things about democracy... but I don't think that it makes them any less likely to start wars than any other form of government. In my opinion.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Democracies DON'T start wars..

I don't know how you came up with such a statement.

 

[applesauce]

Your right the trillion $ economy is a result of the economic reforms ,
not democracy.

But the blame being put on democracy is not entirely right,even though with multi-party democratic system things move at a snails pace.

Politics is one part of it ,but the major one is bureaucratic and red tape mess.

naturally seeing the Ease of doing business index ranking of India is far lower than many developing nations.

i did say that i dont claim there is a correlation but that if one wanted to in the case of india i could come up with more "evidence" for hinderance.

 

[dataminer123]

These were not insinuations, an act to which I would not stoop. I will not hint at wrong-doing, unless I am able to show that there was serious ground for my thinking so.

It started with a feeling of irritation, which was sought to be converted to some school-boyish humour, probably not the best way to make my objections known. Once the exchanges started, I was angry enough to seek a direct confrontation of what I thought at the time was at one level a lie, at another level a display of an egregious lack of respect for the rest of us.

If it was an honest mistake, and you have said this with emphasis a second time now, I have no problem with accepting your word for it and burying the matter once and for all.



Please calm down.

I accept that it was an honest mistake, and take back what I said about it before.



Again, and this repeatedly approaching a person is not an exercise that I am accustomed to do, I hope you will continue to participate.



This needs an explanation.

If we do not learn from our mistakes, we will be doomed to suffer from those again and again.

Neither the Indian Army under Indian leadership, nor the Pakistan Army under Pakistani leadership has ever fought a serious war. The biggest and longest confrontation has been at Army level, involving several Corps, for periods of time never exceeding 60 days.

To learn what we are up against, look up the PLA in Wikipedia. I suggest Wikipedia for no other reason than that I want you to get a quick overview of the matter. Personally, I approached the matter from a different angle, from the angle of the CPC, and of its struggle against the KMT on the one hand, and against the Japanese Army in its full strength on the other. It got to the stage where knowing where and how a topic was described in Mao Ze Dong's On War was easy. That book is an equal of Sun Tzu, I think, only written for modern times, to instruct military leaders of all kinds, but with an emphasis on guerrilla warfare: the Great Helmsman was a military expert, just some degree short of a genius like Napoleon or Alexander.

The PLA seems to have degenerated very subtly in terms of strategic thinking and general ability at war-fighting, ironically, even as its technical and logistical capabilities grew. While it remains one of the world's most formidable forces, with a clear vision of its future in warfare, and where it wishes to be at different times in the future, there is that nagging sense that it has lost the thinking edge it had over everyone else, including the Americans.

This is, of course, my personal opinion.

I came to that conclusion after a very careful comparison of the PLA campaigns in 62 against the Indian Army, and its campaigns against the Vietnamese. A comparative study of the two is very revealing for an Indian.

Even while I hope and will actively work for a peaceful resolution to all Sino-Indian issues, if peaceful resolution is not possible, for whatever reason, we should not be found unprepared for a repeat of the 'punishment' that the PLA handed out.

To be prepared to face this possibility, we need to have our military doctrine in place - it is nowhere visible, other than that of the Indian Navy doctrine - integrated land and air troops, where relevant, integrated land, air and sea troops, always under unified command, equipped completely to deliver mission objectives, and always trained, trained extensively, for their role. In addition, I humbly submit that we need to visualise possible future scenarios and review the disposition of our forces: out of 33 active divisions in the IA, nearly 22 are deployed against Pakistan, and 11 against China! How ridiculous! Nothing wrong with the Western front, but to combat a possible concentration of 25 to 30 PLA divisions with a strength of 11 divisions is a joke. And finally, building infrastructure in the entire north-east and the north-west has become quite critical. This includes road, rail and aircraft landing strips; it includes more electricity, more work-shops, more technical training institutes, more civil engineers, more of everything!

Regarding other aspects of my dealing with any national group, it has been my effort to give them the respect that is their due,whether at the level of a group or at an individual level.

Finally, I was never allowed, either by the thread originator or by any other participant, in spite of several hints, to set down my views on the original claims by other side to the pieces of rock that caused this skirmish. Pity. I had done some sincere research, the results are interesting, and all that will have to wait.

To sum up, relations with and attitudes towards 'Chinese' members of the forum (many of them Canadians, Hong Kong citizens, or Singaporeans, British, Americans or Australasians) was not part of this discussion, but the matter having been raised, I claim my right to respond to it.

If being polite and civil to an entire group, while acknowledging the right of the PRC to have been heard with greater attention and respect, and less devious manoeuvring for better position, without denying the rights of the Indian state in the original matter, beneath the veneer of inappropriate behaviour and unnecessary sly behaviour, is 'siding with the Chinese', that is a display of jingoism which I reject. On the other hand, it seems to me to be the only self-respecting way to behave.

But these are all personal choices, and we display our inner selves in making these choices. I have no problems with what others display of themselves, I am sure of what I wish to display and why. "Suaviter in modo, fortiter in re."



The explanation was passionate and eloquent, and personally speaking, convincing. Utterly convincing.

Your decision on how long to spend on line is your personal decision. I agree that more than two hours on line can be harmful. But nobody can order you off the board or on the board. This can no longer be a reason for staying away, given the explanation offered and accepted. It is surely better to participate and to quell the visceral exchanges by behaving in a rational and scrupulously factual manner instead.

Very insightful analysis. But one question, how did you come up with "possible concentration of 25 to 30 PLA divisions". Last time i check, the whole Chengdu military region which is responsible for southwest China's defense only has 10+ divisions. Do you really think china will call up its 1/3 military regions to confront India ?

 

[JayAtl]

Let's look at the past ten years alone. America started the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war, Israel started the Gaza war and the Lebanon war.

So I can't really agree with that analysis.

There are plenty of good things about democracy... but I don't think that it makes them any less likely to start wars than any other form of government. In my opinion.

History my man, you should check it some time. Iraq war was started by Saddam ( read up on the first gulf war). Afghanistan war, was a result of 911 and like wise on Israeli wars. we just finish wars started... " START" wars being what I wrote and it stands.