What has Democracy solve for India? Lesson for us.

[below_freezing]

I want to watch the funny hat dance

i saw one this summer when i went to Yichang.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hey Mr. Shearer great to see your back (hope you're staying for a bit).

Dear friend,

I have in fact been addressing certain participation issues regarding the participation of Indian commenters on PakTeaHouse. Apart from the objectionable trouble-makers consisting of religious bigots out to prove that Pakistan was conceptually, practically and permanently a failure, there was also a very large number of Indians of basically sympathetic orientation to Pakistan, who were not interpreting what our Pakistani friends said in the correct context. They were misunderstanding a number of ritual, automatic statements made by Pakistanis almost as a matter of course, typically in order to establish their credentials as being in the mainstream of Pakistani thought. These statements are hostile and inimical on the surface; on closer examination, they are very clearly standardised formulae which have no topical relevance. They are said to prove that the speaker, or the writer, is a good Pakistani. For this reason, it was necessary to bring to the notice of Indian friends of liberal, secular and democratic Pakistanis on that forum that we should understand what is really meant by words and we should attempt our own deconstruction of the statements of Pakistanis before answering them.

I explained this at length for the simple reason that I believe that something similar goes on in this forum. But details on that later.

My comments were not a historical judgement on the IA's counter insurgency performance, though it may have looked like it because I mention the CCP's history. (it was just a pet theory I'd thought I share, semi-offtopically). I was compare more the current doctrine and tactics deployed by India and China security forces.

There is an Indian proverb, going to say that once you have seen a man's sacred thread, you don't need to ask to see it a second time. In other words, once a person's credentials are established, they do not have to be re-established every time.

Most Chinese commenters have proven that they generally speak with the support of logic and rationality. It is not necessary, I think, for them to prove that they are sincere again and again. So there is no need to explain your remarks at length; most of us believe and acknowledge that you and most others speaking from a Chinese point of view, whether citizens of China or other countries, speak with goodwill. You have yourself pointed out the exception; I shall not refer to that person.

Example cases being Kashmir for India and Lhasa 2008 for China.

These are I feel rather different. I will explain at length if you wish. My distinguishing between the two is based on the type of civil disturbance involved and the duration.

Although the Ind-Pak war in eastern India interests me I really know very little about it. I am taking a shot and guessing you are talking Shabeg Singh and the success in Bangladesh?

No, indeed. I am referring to the Naxalite (=Maoist) uprising in West Bengal in the late 60s and in another phase, the mid-70s. It is most instructive to follow that; it was a successful case of the Indian state mixing social engineering and force to achieve a solution that led to 40 years of peace. Unfortunately, the government in position during these 40 years destroyed the salience of the opportunity, and it has recurred again.

There are lessons to be learnt. It is an interesting and very well-documented phase of police action and counter-insurgency combined.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No i don't find ur words intense, a honest debate is itself intense so no problem. I haven't got much idea about Singapore except that it was for some 100 years or so under UK and then it was transferred to China right?? am i right?

Also i have read some where that Singapore is a autonomous region in China and i know that is a internationally famous trade destination. Other than this haven't got much idea.

If you are pulling our legs, I shall track you down, tear off your left leg, and beat in your head with that. :-/

 

[Indiarox]

No i don't find ur words intense, a honest debate is itself intense so no problem. I haven't got much idea about Singapore except that it was for some 100 years or so under UK and then it was transferred to China right?? am i right?

Also i have read some where that Singapore is a autonomous region in China and i know that is a internationally famous trade destination. Other than this haven't got much idea.

Why does this story sound like the Hong Kong story to me the 100 years part is quite suspicious to me...

 

[indushek]

If you are pulling our legs, I shall track you down, tear off your left leg, and beat in your head with that. :-/

Explain your self completely or i will not mind ur rants of whatever calibre they are to the group which u address as our legs whoever that might be. Never expected keyboard warrior comments from u, well u do prove urself once again, no doubt.

By the way just to add i am going to a movie right now so may be i will not be back online tonight so when i come back u can try to pull whatever side of my feet u want to Mr. moderate forward thinking and brainy Joe.

 

[Indiarox]

If you are pulling our legs, I shall track you down, tear off your left leg, and beat in your head with that. :-/

Joe what was that all about...........

 

[Joe Shearer]

Explain your self completely or i will not mind ur rants of whatever calibre they are to the group which u address as our legs whoever that might be. Never expected keyboard warrior comments from u, well u do prove urself once again, no doubt.

By the way just to add i am going to a movie right now so may be i will not be back online tonight so when i come back u can try to pull whatever side of my feet u want to Mr. moderate forward thinking and brainy Joe.

Joe what was that all about...........

I am very sure that Indushek is mocking us on this thread with his statement about Singapore, that he thinks that "it was for some 100 years or so under UK and then it was transferred to China.......

Also i have read some where that Singapore is a autonomous region in China and i know that is a internationally famous trade destination. Other than this haven't got much idea".

On the contrary, he does have a very good idea, an excellent idea. He knows that it is a reliable partner for defence projects, he knows that we are considering it for a number of defence collaborations, and he has put that in a memo months ago.

The only motive for this pretended innocence and subterfuge is to have a laugh at our expense. i resent being laughed at, in a fashion like that, just to give a few seconds' entertainment to somebody.

 

[DesiGuy]

If you are pulling our legs, I shall track you down, tear off your left leg, and beat in your head with that. :-/

 

[CardSharp]

Dear friend,

I have in fact been addressing certain participation issues regarding the participation of Indian commenters on PakTeaHouse. Apart from the objectionable trouble-makers consisting of religious bigots out to prove that Pakistan was conceptually, practically and permanently a failure, there was also a very large number of Indians of basically sympathetic orientation to Pakistan, who were not interpreting what our Pakistani friends said in the correct context. They were misunderstanding a number of ritual, automatic statements made by Pakistanis almost as a matter of course, typically in order to establish their credentials as being in the mainstream of Pakistani thought. These statements are hostile and inimical on the surface; on closer examination, they are very clearly standardised formulae which have no topical relevance. They are said to prove that the speaker, or the writer, is a good Pakistani. For this reason, it was necessary to bring to the notice of Indian friends of liberal, secular and democratic Pakistanis on that forum that we should understand what is really meant by words and we should attempt our own deconstruction of the statements of Pakistanis before answering them.

I agree the argument on this thread was pretty unnecessary, but I wonder not knowing the situation as it exists at Paktea house, who is who in our situation? lol

There is an Indian proverb, going to say that once you have seen a man's sacred thread, you don't need to ask to see it a second time. In other words, once a person's credentials are established, they do not have to be re-established every time.

Most Chinese commenters have proven that they generally speak with the support of logic and rationality. It is not necessary, I think, for them to prove that they are sincere again and again. So there is no need to explain your remarks at length; most of us believe and acknowledge that you and most others speaking from a Chinese point of view, whether citizens of China or other countries, speak with goodwill. You have yourself pointed out the exception; I shall not refer to that person.

You're right I think I do it just as a matter of habit because of the consistent influx of new members. It often feels like I am arguing with a man with no memory. Everytime I make progress building a limited consensus with some Indian members about sino-indian issues, I am immediate faced with a new batch of members with the same long held misconceptions.

square zero

These are I feel rather different. I will explain at length if you wish. My distinguishing between the two is based on the type of civil disturbance involved and the duration.

.

Please, perhaps an apolitical discussion of tactics is just what we need. I am also interested in hearing your opinions on modern Tibet and its future.

I have recently heard some pretty interesting ideas about the possibility of the Indian government dismantling the Tibetan government in exile and how that could be the catalyst for a major leap forward in Sino-Indian relations (with maybe a re-evaluation vis-a-vis the Pak-Ind issue)

No, indeed. I am referring to the Naxalite (=Maoist) uprising in West Bengal in the late 60s and in another phase, the mid-70s. It is most instructive to follow that; it was a successful case of the Indian state mixing social engineering and force to achieve a solution that led to 40 years of peace. Unfortunately, the government in position during these 40 years destroyed the salience of the opportunity, and it has recurred again.

There are lessons to be learnt. It is an interesting and very well-documented phase of police action and counter-insurgency combined.

Ahhh opportunity squandered. This is what I see as the solution to most insurgencies historical or otherwise, a combination of social engineering (in bold) and a perception of unassailable force.

 

[indushek]

Joe what was that all about...........

I am very sure that Indushek is mocking us on this thread with his statement about Singapore, that he thinks that "it was for some 100 years or so under UK and then it was transferred to China.......

Also i have read some where that Singapore is a autonomous region in China and i know that is a internationally famous trade destination. Other than this haven't got much idea".

On the contrary, he does have a very good idea, an excellent idea. He knows that it is a reliable partner for defence projects, he knows that we are considering it for a number of defence collaborations, and he has put that in a memo months ago.

The only motive for this pretended innocence and subterfuge is to have a laugh at our expense. i resent being laughed at, in a fashion like that, just to give a few seconds' entertainment to somebody.

Sorry my bad i have got Hong Kong and Singapore all mixed up there, u see when huzhhaido was asking about Singapore, i as was involved in that debate about Democracy and Chinese governance model,mixed it up completely.

It was not at all intentional nor was it for some point scoring which i never do. I get it now and accept my mistake and say sorry to anybody who misunderstood me.

Now since i have explained my side of story and accepted my mistake , what about u Joe what do u mean by make fun of us?? when did i make fun of any Indian here?? or are u mixing urself up with???

 

[indushek]

Perhaps my words too intense? Only debate, in fact, the Chinese system is somewhat similar to Singapore, I ask you, do you think Singapore is a communism country? At least you need to know that.

No i don't find ur words intense, a honest debate is itself intense so no problem. I haven't got much idea about Singapore except that it was for some 100 years or so under UK and then it was transferred to China right?? am i right?

Also i have read some where that Singapore is a autonomous region in China and i know that is a internationally famous trade destination. Other than this haven't got much idea.

To prove that it was unintentional, here is what huzhhaido asked me and i replied keeping Hong Kong in mind. However the reply by Joe shows he has something against me.

Even at the end i was doubtful about my reply and was asking him if i was right, i should taken wiki help but i was at work place and due to some work just made a fast reply and went away.Hope this clears doubts.

 

[最爱高古陶]

the problem is: india "democracy" is not a real democracy, india corruption is even more serious than china's,and i doubt india people enjoy more freedom in daily life than a chinese citizen.

 

[chauism]

Sorry my bad i have got Hong Kong and Singapore all mixed up there, u see when huzhhaido was asking about Singapore, i as was involved in that debate about Democracy and Chinese governance model,mixed it up completely.

It was not at all intentional nor was it for some point scoring which i never do. I get it now and accept my mistake and say sorry to anybody who misunderstood me.

Now since i have explained my side of story and accepted my mistake , what about u Joe what do u mean by make fun of us?? when did i make fun of any Indian here?? or are u mixing urself up with???

Oh, really.

Why does this story sound like the Hong Kong story to me the 100 years part is quite suspicious to me...

Then explain what this is all about??

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

In India,democracy is a necessity as our "ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES" tend to forget their responsibilities and feel that they are unstoppable.Hence,we need to remind them of their duties every once in a while(even though it's not as effective as it sounds).Whereas in China,their leaders have a huge sense of responsibility.So,what the Chinese people THINK, their representatives do but in India,what the people want their representatives to do,<after a long long pause> they get it done!

 

[LaBong]

Sorry my bad i have got Hong Kong and Singapore all mixed up there, u see when huzhhaido was asking about Singapore, i as was involved in that debate about Democracy and Chinese governance model,mixed it up completely.

It was not at all intentional nor was it for some point scoring which i never do. I get it now and accept my mistake and say sorry to anybody who misunderstood me.

Now since i have explained my side of story and accepted my mistake , what about u Joe what do u mean by make fun of us?? when did i make fun of any Indian here?? or are u mixing urself up with???

To prove that it was unintentional, here is what huzhhaido asked me and i replied keeping Hong Kong in mind. However the reply by Joe shows he has something against me.

Even at the end i was doubtful about my reply and was asking him if i was right, i should taken wiki help but i was at work place and due to some work just made a fast reply and went away.Hope this clears doubts.

Indushek, even Joe is entitled to have some fun and leg pulling, right? Take it easy.