What has Democracy solve for India? Lesson for us.

[StingRoy]

I don't understand the question?

The State always allocates government funds, in every country.

I don't know of any country where the people themselves write up the government budget.

What I meant is that do people have a say in getting funds allocated for themselves. The elected leader has to make a case to justify the cost for a project he wants to do in his constituency.

He therefore becomes people's voice in demanding for development from the central budget allocation. Of course umbrella budget allocation is done by the finance ministry, but the elected representatives have a say in the final distribution at the grass root level.

 

[CardSharp]

What I meant is that do people have a say in getting funds allocated for themselves. The elected leader has to make a case to justify the cost for a project he wants to do in his constituency.

He therefore becomes people's voice in demanding for development from the central budget allocation. Of course umbrella budget allocation is done by the finance ministry, but the elected representatives have a say in the final distribution at the grass root level.

Is why I hear about Indian politicians getting elected on the campaign promise of buying everyone a colour TV?

 

[hembo]

Guys (Indians), don't you get the message here...

We haven't worked in fields under hot sun, hence we cannot feel waht the poor feels and we can never know what the poor needs...

They have worked in paddy fields under the hot sun. HENCE THEY KNOW IT and THEY ARE ENTITLED TO LECTURE US HOW TO UPLIFT THE POOR.

You guys (Indians) are making a mountain out of this simple mole hill.

So chill!!

 

[CardSharp]

Guys (Indians), don't you get the message here...

We haven't worked in fields under hot sun, hence we cannot feel waht the poor feels and we can never know what the poor needs...

They have worked in paddy fields under the hot sun. HENCE THEY KNOW IT and THEY ARE ENTITLED TO LECTURE US HOW TO UPLIFT THE POOR.

You guys (Indians) are making a mountain out of this simple mole hill.

So chill!!

Most of us haven't and that isn't what we are trying to say. We are saying that the people in this forum are unlikely to have experienced true poverty, the people living in true poverty are the people being hurt most by India's inefficient system. So the opinions of people here may not be representative of the whole of India.

As a side note. If people here feel we are indeed lecturing, they always has the option of simply not listening.

 

[great]

^^^ But same could be said about Chinese on this forum right? Most of you live in other countries with full freedom but you make it sound like China is heaven for freedom of expression..You certainly can't be representing countless people living in rural areas whose land is acquired for industrialization and who are not even allowed to enter cities without permit..

I am too not trying to preach you..also you have the same option of not listening to us..

 

[CardSharp]

^^^ But same could be said about Chinese on this forum right? Most of you live in other countries with full freedom but you make it sound like China is heaven for freedom of expression..You certainly can't be representing countless people living in rural areas whose land is acquired for industrialization and who are not even allowed to enter cities without permit..

I am too not trying to preach you..also you have the same option of not listening to us..

Well we have Chinese citizens living in China online with us discussing whatever matter they like with those of us abroad.

What does that say? Where is the mythical goon squad? Most of you obviously still think that if anyone criticizes the government gets instantly get locked up.

You certainly can't be representing countless people living in rural areas whose land is acquired for industrialization and who are not even allowed to enter cities without permit..

Again do you even know what the hukou system is? Do you know how many migrants are living in China's cities? I'm guessing not

I am too not trying to preach you..also you have the same option of not listening to us..

YOU ARE IN THE CHINA DEFENCE SUB-FORUM

 

[Brotherhood]

^^^ But same could be said about Chinese on this forum right? Most of you live in other countries with full freedom but you make it sound like China is heaven for freedom of expression..You certainly can't be representing countless people living in rural areas whose land is acquired for industrialization and who are not even allowed to enter cities without permit..

I am too not trying to preach you..also you have the same option of not listening to us..

But should India democracy at least able to provide the basic human right for her people to have a full stomach?

This is a chart that should put every Indian into shame. Not only an Indian, but also those who swear in the name of democracy. How can people's representatives remain immune to the growing scourge of hunger? Shouldn't this provoke you to ask the basic: why should hunger exist in a democracy?
Hunger Proliferates In A Democracy; India Tops The Chart By Devinder Sharma

 

[CardSharp]

But should India democracy at least able to provide the basic human right for her people to have a full stomach?

This is a chart that should put every Indian into shame. Not only an Indian, but also those who swear in the name of democracy. How can people's representatives remain immune to the growing scourge of hunger? Shouldn't this provoke you to ask the basic: why should hunger exist in a democracy?
Hunger Proliferates In A Democracy; India Tops The Chart By Devinder Sharma

Excerpt



This commitment alone demonstrated the political indifference to mankind's worst crime. Considering FAO's own projections of the number of people succumbing to hunger and malnutrition at around 24,000 a day, I had then said that by the year 2015, the 20 years time limit they had decided to work on, 172 million people would die of hunger. And when the world meets for the MDG Summit in a few days from now, almost 15 years since the WFS 1996, close to 128 million people have already died from hunger.

And you call this an urgency?

No one across the world stood up to call the bluff.

Hunger has instead grown. By 2010, the world should have removed at least 300 million people from the hunger list. It has however added another 85 million to raise the tally to 925 million. In my understanding, this too is a gross understatement. The horrendous face of hunger is being kept deliberately hidden by lowering the figures. In India, for instance, the map shows 238 million people living in hunger. This is certainly incorrect. A new government estimate points to 37.2 per cent of the population living in poverty, which means the hunger tally in India is officially at 450 million. Even this is an understatement. The poverty line is kept so stringent in India (at Rs 17 per person per day) that in the same amount you cannot even think of feeding a pet dog. I wonder how can the poor manage two-square meals a day under this classification.

Hunger is also growing in major democracies. In the US, it has broken a 14-year record, and one in every ten Americans lives in hunger. In Europe, 40 million people are hungry, almost equivalent to the population of Spain. Interestingly, most of the countries in the hunger chart are following democratic forms of governance. And yet, the only country which has made a sizable difference to global hunger is China, which as we all know is not a democracy.

Is it so difficult to remove hunger? The answer is No.

 

[great]

Well we have Chinese citizens living in China online with us discussing whatever matter they like with those of us abroad.

What does that say? Where is the mythical goon squad? Most of you obviously still think that if anyone criticizes the government gets instantly get locked up.



Again do you even know what the houkou system is? Do you know how many migrants are living in China's cities? I'm guessing not




YOU ARE IN THE CHINA DEFENCE SUB-FORUM

Yet the discussion is about Indian democracy.. When did the Chinese start to living in India.. Many of us have come from lower middle class families. I myself is one of them..Yet I don't see it as a failing of democracy. It could be failing of our politicians..I agree to that..

Chinese think they are lot more advanced to us..If only we opened our economy 12 years before you. We had several reasons for not doing that..Colonial mindset for one. Yet I don't want to belittle Chinese achievements, they are tremendous. But your arrogance is getting a bit overboard..

 

[CardSharp]

Yet the discussion is about Indian democracy.. When did the Chinese start to living in India.. Many of us have come from lower middle class families.

Lower middle class means you maybe didn't get that toy you wanted when you were little, not you lived on the streets and had nothing to eat for days.

Yet I don't see it as a failing of democracy. It could be failing of our politicians..I agree to that..

Ok but the end result is the same

Yet I don't want to belittle Chinese achievements, they are tremendous. But your arrogance is getting a bit overboard..

Again you have the option of putting us/me on ignore or simply not visiting the China forum. This article was meant for discussion with other Chinese members about the relative merits of the two system. It's not a even handed comparison but it still not aim at an Indian audience.

 

[great]

Excerpt



This commitment alone demonstrated the political indifference to mankind's worst crime. Considering FAO's own projections of the number of people succumbing to hunger and malnutrition at around 24,000 a day, I had then said that by the year 2015, the 20 years time limit they had decided to work on, 172 million people would die of hunger. And when the world meets for the MDG Summit in a few days from now, almost 15 years since the WFS 1996, close to 128 million people have already died from hunger.

And you call this an urgency?

No one across the world stood up to call the bluff.

Hunger has instead grown. By 2010, the world should have removed at least 300 million people from the hunger list. It has however added another 85 million to raise the tally to 925 million. In my understanding, this too is a gross understatement. The horrendous face of hunger is being kept deliberately hidden by lowering the figures. In India, for instance, the map shows 238 million people living in hunger. This is certainly incorrect. A new government estimate points to 37.2 per cent of the population living in poverty, which means the hunger tally in India is officially at 450 million. Even this is an understatement. The poverty line is kept so stringent in India (at Rs 17 per person per day) that in the same amount you cannot even think of feeding a pet dog. I wonder how can the poor manage two-square meals a day under this classification.

Hunger is also growing in major democracies. In the US, it has broken a 14-year record, and one in every ten Americans lives in hunger. In Europe, 40 million people are hungry, almost equivalent to the population of Spain. Interestingly, most of the countries in the hunger chart are following democratic forms of governance. And yet, the only country which has made a sizable difference to global hunger is China, which as we all know is not a democracy.

Is it so difficult to remove hunger? The answer is No.

So you expect us to remove hunger tomorrow. We'll do it if we can. It took China almost 30 years after reforms to reach where it is now. India is still about 18 years into the reform process. In the next 10 years we'll be where you are now..

And I don't see what it has got to do with democracy..What would have happened to China if some idiot took control of the Party and negated all you have done before like start a war with some other country, China will go into civil war. At least in our country, we can throw him out the next minute with dissent..

 

[desioptimist]

Can the person started the thread asking the above question tell me what he realized after this long debate.

Most Indians here are of the view that whatever has been achieved is due to democracy.

Can anybody who is showing all the ills that India face, show logically that they have increased due to democracy.

1. Poverty: Inherited from colonial past, by and large unaffected by democracy, need better financial system than political system to eradicate.
2. Castism: We always had this. The victimization has reduced but the use of caste as identity so that one can collectively bargain, is here to stay for long(even for educated and rich people).
3.Criminals in politics: This has increased after democracy. More of a systemic failure than problem with democracy. But this one is also the easiest to eradicate( You will see less criminals now in politics than before).

So, I would say, given what chinease leadership has done(economic wonders), it would have been better if they had democracy. I am assuming that people of similar capability would have ruled the country.

Communism tried elsewhere have failed, why the chinease people think it would have reduced poverty in India. It would have only allowed feudal landlords to grab power( like pakistan) and stay there.

 

[great]

Lower middle class means you maybe didn't get that toy you wanted when you were little, not you lived on the streets and had nothing to eat for days.





Ok but the end result is the same




Again you have the option of putting us/me on ignore or simply not visiting the China forum. This article was meant for discussion with other Chinese members about the relative merits of the two system. It's not a even handed comparison but it still not aim at an Indian audience.

When you discuss about Indian democracy, you only discuss the bad things about democracy? I haven't seen a single post from any of Chinese members mentioning merits of the same. And Indians keep on trying to defend democracy as they live in one..

When you discuss our democracy, doesn't our views count?

And why not come to India, ask the very poor you talking about whether they trade democracy to communism, you would get your answer loud and clear.

Also India is not lagging behind. It still is the second largest developing economy in the world and soon to be first. So please spare us your rhetoric.

 

[desioptimist]

There is no correlation between democracy and hunger/poverty.
There is strong correlation between bad economic policy and hunger/poverty of a country.

 

[CardSharp]

Can the person started the thread asking the above question tell me what he realized after this long debate.

Most Indians here are of the view that whatever has been achieved is due to democracy.

Can anybody who is showing all the ills that India face, show logically that they have increased due to democracy.

1. Poverty: Inherited from colonial past, by and large unaffected by democracy, need better financial system than political system to eradicate.
2. Castism: We always had this. The victimization has reduced but the use of caste as identity so that one can collectively bargain, is here to stay for long(even for educated and rich people).
3.Criminals in politics: This has increased after democracy. More of a systemic failure than problem with democracy. But this one is also the easiest to eradicate( You will see less criminals now in politics than before).

So, I would say, given what chinease leadership has done(economic wonders), it would have been better if they had democracy. I am assuming that people of similar capability would have ruled the country.

Communism tried elsewhere have failed, why the chinease people think it would have reduced poverty in India. It would have only allowed feudal landlords to grab power( like pakistan) and stay there.

I suggest you read about the Chinese civil war and the mismanagement and exploitations of the country by the pro-western pro-democratic Chang government 1920-1948

This is a government that refuse to defend Chinese sovereignty with all resources, responsible for 17x inflation of the currency, corruption in every family of the ruling elite, responsible for millions of deaths by neglect, manage to lose a civil war while outnumbering the communists 4.1 to 1.9 million troops, and with better American equipment, American air support, and American economic aid in the form of cold hard cash.