What happens after 23rd March, another marshall law? or not ?

[That Guy]

Absolutely not----. Democracy starts from day one.

How many decades did Prophet Mohammad give for democracy after the conquest of Mecca?

No, it really doesn't. Democracy starts when the nation is ready for such a system. It took the Brits hundreds of years to gain it, and even longer to get to where they are now.

If we're going to bring religion into this, why not just declare a Caliphate in Pakistan then? Or at least an Emirate?

 

[MastanKhan]

No, it really doesn't. Democracy starts when the nation is ready for such a system. It took the Brits hundreds of years to gain it, and even longer to get to where they are now.

If we're going to bring religion into this, why not just declare a Caliphate in Pakistan then? Or at least an Emirate?

You remember someone Mohammad---the prophet of the muslims---the one that you call your prophet----some 1400 years ago in mecca---so---how many days did it take for him to instill democracy----.

Was it one day or was it 10 days----.

Youngman---democracy never starts when the nation is ready----because the nation is never ready and will never be ready---. Democracy is not enforced by a nation---it is enforced by a person---a person in power----.

 

[KingMamba]

I am willing to make the sacrifice and accept the mantle of Khalifa. Only because all of you keep insisting.

 

[rockstar08]

No, it really doesn't. Democracy starts when the nation is ready for such a system. It took the Brits hundreds of years to gain it, and even longer to get to where they are now.

If we're going to bring religion into this, why not just declare a Caliphate in Pakistan then? Or at least an Emirate?

I strongly Agree with this point ...
Our people is still confused , there are liberals who want a secular Pakistan , and there are other who want to see Shairah in Pakistan .... Problem is that there is no such way to stand between Secularism and Shairah , because people interpret both things wrong

I am willing to make the sacrifice as accept the mantle of Khalifa. Only because all of you keep insisting.

I vote Zarvan as Khalifa of PDF

 

[KingMamba]

I vote Zarvan as Khalifa of PDF

Sab ko marwai ga bhai.

 

[That Guy]

You remember someone Mohammad---the prophet of the muslims---the one that you call your prophet----some 1400 years ago in mecca---so---how many days did it take for him to instill democracy----.

Was it one day or was it 10 days----.

Youngman---democracy never starts when the nation is ready----because the nation is never ready and will never be ready---. Democracy is not enforced by a nation---it is enforced by a person---a person in power----.

Lets be honest here, what you're saying is nothing more than honey coated words. They're nice to hear, but not realistic in the least. For the longest time, most of European nations were monarchies, it was when the people said "enough is enough" that democracy came to the forefront of people's minds. This is not me just spouting words to sound wise, rather this is the reality of history. Democracy is something you need to earn, not something you can just get.

Again, bringing religion into this is a low blow, I expected better from you.

 

[rockstar08]

Sab ko marwai ga bhai.

sab ko tu choro , sab se pehle tu mere sir qalm kerne ka farmaan jari kare ga

jab Pakistan ki band hi bajani hai , tu zara tareeqay se bajate hai na ....

we are just finding way to destroy our Country , sadly its truth

 

[That Guy]

I strongly Agree with this point ...
Our people is still confused , there are liberals who want a secular Pakistan , and there are other who want to see Shairah in Pakistan .... Problem is that there is no such way to stand between Secularism and Shairah , because people interpret both things wrong



I vote Zarvan as Khalifa of PDF

lol.

In all seriousness though, when you have JI, an Islamist party, advocating a democratic constitution, then your people are ready.

Democracy is about allowing people to have different beliefs and ideas. A democratic multiparty system allows these people a fair shot of running the country the way they think it should be run, and to let the people decide their own ultimate fate in the nation they call home. That is democracy, something those who advocate marshall law absolutely oppose. The idea of freedom of thought and expression frightens them.

 

[rockstar08]

lol.

In all seriousness though, when you have JI, an Islamist party, advocating a democratic constitution, then your people are ready.

Democracy is about allowing people to have different beliefs and ideas. A democratic multiparty system allows these people a fair shot of running the country the way they think it should be run, and to let the people decide their own ultimate fate in the nation they call home. That is democracy, something those who advocate marshall law absolutely oppose. The idea of freedom of thought and expression frightens them.

well sadly that same JI mindset is growing up ... there are clashes of different culture ,and now even Religions ....
calling for a Marshal Law , is acceptable in a sense that we have no democracy ? do we ?? a Corrupt govt takes charge from another corrupt Govt ... people been killed just because they dont share your belief ? forget about freedom of Expression ... Pakistan is completely Opposite of Democracy , so people are looking for someone who take a stand for them , they look at army with a hope , and army did all they can for them , so people request to me is Fair ...

in long run it can be bad , but again taking our nation mindset into consideration , i say we all listen only the language of " Danda "
and sometimes its best to make some basic ethic in a nation to make a new start ...

 

[MastanKhan]

Lets be honest here, what you're saying is nothing more than honey coated words. They're nice to hear, but not realistic in the least. For the longest time, most of European nations were monarchies, it was when the people said "enough is enough" that democracy came to the forefront of people's minds. This is not me just spouting words to sound wise, rather this is the reality of history. Democracy is something you need to earn, not something you can just get.

Again, bringing religion into this is a low blow, I expected better from you.

My good man,

You are as clueless as a concrete wall surrounding my house. Democracy is not Christian or European. It first appeared in rome----and then enmasse in Islam of Arabia.

My son's 7th grade history and social studies book talks about Islam and why people converted to Islam----and this is here in California school---.

" People converted to Islam enmasse for equality---rule of law---justice for all--- "---this is in my 7th grader class----and you are telling me don't bring religion into it.

You have the distinction of being the worst TT analyst on the board---your posts are worthless---you analytic abilities are zilch---you have no clue what you talk about---because you put no effort into learning what you need to say.

Islam is the most democratic of the religions----. Everything in Islam is based on democratic principals---and I am not talking about the deceitful Shariah Law---.

 

[Viper0011.]

My good man,

You are as clueless as a concrete wall surrounding my house. Democracy is not Christian or European. It first appeared in rome----and then enmasse in Islam of Arabia.


You have the distinction of being the worst TT analyst on the board---your posts are worthless---you analytic abilities are zilch---you have no clue what you talk about---because you put no effort into learning what you need to say..

I agree with the bold part. I've dealt with this gentleman before and majority of the time I..........get clueless reading clueless posts (let's put it this way) !! It'd be nice for people to either at times learn from other, or have the open mindedness to go research something on their own, before getting into a silly head-on collision without having facts backing the debate up!

No, it really doesn't. Democracy starts when the nation is ready for such a system. It took the Brits hundreds of years to gain it, and even longer to get to where they are now.

If we're going to bring religion into this, why not just declare a Caliphate in Pakistan then? Or at least an Emirate?

In democracy, religion is a personal choice. People's will to do what they want to, welfare, lifestyle, economy, right to free speech, right to a safer environment to live in, right to social / necessary services and safety is ensured.
I don't think there is ANY religion on this planet that says otherwise also. So religions also have democratic element in them. But, in a true democratic system, it is the PEOPLE who rule, and can worship whatever they want to in a peaceful manner ensuring others safety and rights, as well as their own.

 

[TankMan]

My good man,

You are as clueless as a concrete wall surrounding my house. Democracy is not Christian or European. It first appeared in rome----and then enmasse in Islam of Arabia.

My son's 7th grade history and social studies book talks about Islam and why people converted to Islam----and this is here in California school---.

" People converted to Islam enmasse for equality---rule of law---justice for all--- "---this is in my 7th grader class----and you are telling me don't bring religion into it.

You have the distinction of being the worst TT analyst on the board---your posts are worthless---you analytic abilities are zilch---you have no clue what you talk about---because you put no effort into learning what you need to say.

Islam is the most democratic of the religions----. Everything in Islam is based on democratic principals---and I am not talking about the deceitful Shariah Law---.

First of all, Democracy didn't originate in Rome but in ancient Greece - please don't call people names when your own information is less than perfect.

Secondly, The Prophet did not just immediately declare Islamic Democracy - he spent decades preaching Islam, laying the foundation and preparing society for the revolutions he was about to bring. God himself commanded the use gradual change in that situation, for example alcohol was gradually prohibited in a step by step manner, because it wouldn't be practical to just immediately change the law about it.

There's a similar principle behind Democracy too - just as people needed to be educated about Islam (they still need to), the reasoning behind it and its application, people need to be educated about Democracy.

Only this time, we don't have a Prophet to do it - we will have to find the right leaders eventually, through a trial-and-error process which we are currently experiencing. But there's no point if trial and error results in our country being dissolved, which is why we need stability.

The time under the Prophet (s.a.w), was different in too many ways- you can not realistically expect any of that to happen in Pakistan's current situation. It is good to think or dream about but in reality, @That Guy is right in a sense that Democracy will take time to actually reach a position in which it is fair, the loopholes and vulnerabilities have been reduced and it is a viable system of governance - and that too after a society is made ready for it, which takes time and education.

So unless you know someone who has a direct pipeline to God and can perform miracles and summon Angels for help, please don't suggest such impractical actions.

Anyway, there is no doubt about Islam's democratic qualities but I would prefer if it is kept away from Pakistani politics and politics in general - we should apply the Prophet's principles in all situations, including politics, but we should never try to assume his role.

 

[That Guy]

My good man,

You are as clueless as a concrete wall surrounding my house. Democracy is not Christian or European. It first appeared in rome----and then enmasse in Islam of Arabia.

You're missing my point, I'm not even talking about it's origins.

My son's 7th grade history and social studies book talks about Islam and why people converted to Islam----and this is here in California school---.

" People converted to Islam enmasse for equality---rule of law---justice for all--- "---this is in my 7th grader class----and you are telling me don't bring religion into it.

Democratic ideals are generally secular in nature. When I said don't bring Islam into this, I'm talking in modern systems. Modern democracy is NOT the same as in the past. What you are suggesting is essentially a Caliphate, because that is what the system of government was during the Islamic golden age.

You have the distinction of being the worst TT analyst on the board---your posts are worthless---you analytic abilities are zilch---you have no clue what you talk about---because you put no effort into learning what you need to say.

So, you're going to attack my title? You know, I was always at odds with your opinion, but at least I respected you. This personal attack against me? If you have a problem with me having this title, tell @Horus to take away my title, or @WebMaster, or @Oscar. Any one of them will do.

Islam is the most democratic of the religions----. Everything in Islam is based on democratic principals---and I am not talking about the deceitful Shariah Law---.

Today's reality is different from the Islamic golden age. Even if you're right, that still doesn't change what I'm saying. People will want a system when they're ready, you cannot force them into it.

I agree with the bold part. I've dealt with this gentleman before and majority of the time I..........get clueless reading clueless posts (let's put it this way) !! It'd be nice for people to either at times learn from other, or have the open mindedness to go research something on their own, before getting into a silly head-on collision without having facts backing the debate up!



In democracy, religion is a personal choice. People's will to do what they want to, welfare, lifestyle, economy, right to free speech, right to a safer environment to live in, right to social / necessary services and safety is ensured.
I don't think there is ANY religion on this planet that says otherwise also. So religions also have democratic element in them. But, in a true democratic system, it is the PEOPLE who rule, and can worship whatever they want to in a peaceful manner ensuring others safety and rights, as well as their own.

Seriously? This is what I said, you just reworded my comments, nothing more. To attack me and my title, to insult me, how dare you. Every time you and I have had a conversation, I've tried to be friendly, but this? **** this forum, I'm done. I've had to deal with bullshit from so many people because of my title, but this is the final straw. I'm done.

@Horus I'm done with this forum.

 

[TankMan]

In democracy, religion is a personal choice. People's will to do what they want to, welfare, lifestyle, economy, right to free speech, right to a safer environment to live in, right to social / necessary services and safety is ensured.
I don't think there is ANY religion on this planet that says otherwise also. So religions also have democratic element in them. But, in a true democratic system, it is the PEOPLE who rule, and can worship whatever they want to in a peaceful manner ensuring others safety and rights, as well as their own

Please read peoples' posts before responding to them.

Democracy is about allowing people to have different beliefs and ideas. A democratic multiparty system allows these people a fair shot of running the country the way they think it should be run, and to let the people decide their own ultimate fate in the nation they call home. That is democracy, something those who advocate marshall law absolutely oppose. The idea of freedom of thought and expression frightens them.

How is what @That Guy said any different from what you have said here? There is absolutely nothing different in your opinions on this matter - he is saying the exact same thing you are. Then why argue? Because he has a Pakistani flag and needs to be taught about Democracy?

With that aside, one point I wanted to add was that Islam and ideological Democracy have one fundamental bone of contention: Democracy believes that sovereignty belongs to the majority, while Islam believes that it belongs to God - but the reason I underlined ''ideological'' was because in practicality, Democracy never gives absolute sovereignty to majorities- there is always a set of laws, things like the constitution, human rights and minority rights that restrain it.

Thus, practical Democracy and Islam are compatible.

 

[rockstar08]

First of all, Democracy didn't originate in Rome but in ancient Greece - please don't call people names when your own information is less than perfect.

Secondly, The Prophet did not just immediately declare Islamic Democracy - he spent decades preaching Islam, laying the foundation and preparing society for the revolutions he was about to bring. God himself commanded the use gradual change in that situation, for example alcohol was gradually prohibited in a step by step manner, because it wouldn't be practical to just immediately change the law about it.

There's a similar principle behind Democracy too - just as people needed to be educated about Islam (they still need to), the reasoning behind it and its application, people need to be educated about Democracy.

Only this time, we don't have a Prophet to do it - we will have to find the right leaders eventually, through a trial-and-error process which we are currently experiencing. But there's no point if trial and error results in our country being dissolved, which is why we need stability.

The time under the Prophet (s.a.w), was different in too many ways- you can not realistically expect any of that to happen in Pakistan's current situation. It is good to think or dream about but in reality, @That Guy is right in a sense that Democracy will take time to actually reach a position in which it is fair, the loopholes and vulnerabilities have been reduced and it is a viable system of governance - and that too after a society is made ready for it, which takes time and education.

So unless you know someone who has a direct pipeline to God and can perform miracles and summon Angels for help, please don't suggest such impractical actions.

Anyway, there is no doubt about Islam's democratic qualities but I would prefer if it is kept away from Pakistani politics and politics in general - we should apply the Prophet's principles in all situations, including politics, but we should never try to assume his role.

First of all , Prophet in early days did not Preach about life style , but his major focus was Islam , he was struggling to preach this new religion , which was completely Opposite from what Arabs have experience in Past ..
Basically if you ask my Personal Point of View , i would say Islam itself is a living way , that include almost all problems that a society can face , with proper solutions ... Sharia is just some interpretations , we have no way to trace the exact same Sharia which was in the time of Prophet ... but later on it was continued by Hazart Omar RA , and he did major modification in it , under Islamic ways ..... Hazart Omar RA , created the foundation to many new things, which was unknown to Arabs ... if you have read about his tenure you would have know ...

so i guess what Mastan Khan is saying that Democratic rules are nothing new to Islam nor its impossible to implement , the problem is within our Nation , why people may Disagree with Islamic Democracy that they might think that the punishments are very strict , for the betterment of the society ... you steal, your hand will be chopped , but in our system , you will simply go to jail , for 1-2 years or may be more .. depends ..

That guy Argument is also right that people must be ready to accept which way of living they choose, that is way i write in my earlier post that our Nation is Confused .