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What guarantee can the Americans give Pakistanis that we can now trust you

last but not least, one must not ask these Yankees about the democracy in Arab states coz they will start working on them once their oil wells get dry.
Rightly said US gives a damn to democracy its just its intrests determine that weather it will pressurize the other country for having democracy.
Arabs have oil and $$$ that hinders the great preacher of democray to do nothing and just shut up in front of the great monarchs of Arabia.
 
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Rightly said US gives a damn to democracy its just its intrests determine that weather it will pressurize the other country for having democracy.Arabs have oil and $$$ that hinders the great preacher of democray to just shut up in front of the great monarchs of Arabia.

@Mirage 2000...

Can you please point one country in the world which have made decisions at the sake of her own national interests??? Not that i am arguing for America but may i ask who is the worlds biggest donor?? What did the so called world did against Saddam Hussein attrocities?? what did the world do when Taliban in the name of sharia killed people cold blooded and much more which is so disgusting that i dont even want to type??So what's wrong when America no matter even for her own national interest is present in these countries and cleaning up the mess...Atleast there is a ray of hope that these countries will have a better future even at the cost of messy present...We all can debate on the way operations are held in America but isn't it that they are changing their operations to avoid collateral damage...

Now as far as pakistan is concerned it is kidish to ask for any gaurantee...as in geo-politics there is no guarantee...There have never been any permanent friends nor enemies and there will never be any...US needs Pak now and unfortunately Pak always needed US...If Pak managed to get her out of the unending political/economical mess...start pursuing an independen foreign policy with stability and lucrative market you will find her(Pak) at a place where you don't need any guarantee nobody will be able to ignore you...Hopefully we will see that day soon
 
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... and US killed millions, but of other countries, directly by nukes and indirectly by their touts like israel etc.
You are just spouting rhetoric.
Millions were NEVER killed by nukes! The numbers from Hiroshima and Nagasaki were less than 200,000. Google it and see for yourself.

As for Israel, again, its ridiculous to say that they killed "millions" or to say that they are American "touts" ! If there were millions of Palestinians dead then the West bank would be a whole lot less populated than it is now!

... i thought only american politicians make pathetic jokes... btw thanks for bringing democracy in our country, our current govt is your best ever product and other countires must learn lessons from zardari... oh how can i forgot about hamid karzai, aghans are also blessed with a democratic govt with the kind efforts of US and since then they are in peace.

last but not least, one must not ask these Yankees about the democracy in Arab states coz they will start working on them once their oil wells get dry.
So Iraq has no more Oil then according to your brilliant theory ? Because they are conducting elections regularly and have democracy right now, so naturally their oil wells must already be dry !
Maybe you should tell the Iraqi Government that they dont have any more oil. They seem to be making Billions out of selling "nothing". Thats a good deal!!

As for democracy, if you are too ignorant to appreciate its benefits or your country unable to facilitate real change that democracy can afford than you are more backward than Afghanistan. Because they understand the value of democracy over the feudal warlords that have terrorized them for decades! And yes, Karzai has been a great leader for Afghanistan, he has made sure the NATO forces stay committed and has brought Billions of dollars worth of funding back to that desolate corner of the world helping to improve many many lives and further human rights to some of the most oppressed people in the world!
Today afghan women have the opportunity to go to school, learn, read and participate in life. People can actually play Music in their homes, something impossible under the barbaric Taliban! People in Afghanistan may not have perfect lives but with some effort and some sacrifice they can be on their way towards prosperity and happiness with dignity!

Its a shame that you as a Pakistani cant seem to grasp the value of democracy, especially when your country's founder fought to make it so!
 
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To win Pakistani hearts, US should start being Pro-Pakistan just like its Pro-Israel and Pro-India.

Pakistan always sided with US since day one. India always sided with Soviet Union, and still India gets a US nuclear deal, its easier for Indians to get visas to US than it is for Pakistanis, and more trade and American market is offered to India than it is offered to Pakistan.

Also US gives India's concerns far more importance than it gives to Pakistan's concerns. No US official ever talks much about Pakistan's concerns over the indian consulates in Afghanistan.

India has gained way more from America than Pakistan ever had, thats one of the reasons why Pakistanis dont trust US. Pakistan was the number 1 supporter of US during the Cold War, while India was on Soviet Union's side and still America favors India over Pakistan.

U.S. has to change its policies to win Pakistani hearts, Pakistan didn't gain much from chosing U.S. as a friend since 1947.
 
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Read the Washington Post of today. There's an article saying 48% of Americans are of the view to increase the troops in Afghanistan, while 52% are against it. Generally, 50-70% Americans want US to vacate Afghanistan and take care of its internal business. This is what the stats says too.
Wrong. 100% of Americans want the war to end and the bloodshed to stop but 100% of Americans dont want peace at the cost of letting Al Qaeda win! 50% of the people may not want to send more troops to Afghanistan but 100% of Americans support our troops no matter where they are! And 100% of Americans want to win!
You confusing the statistics of people favoring additional troops to Afghanistan with the statistics of people favoring defeating Al Qaeda!
The US is not going to ever let Al Qaeda win, where ever they hide and we are not going to abandon Afghanistan to the Taliban either. The US will not let Afghanistan become another haven for terrorists, come what may! It might take time and it might be bloody but in the end the Taliban will either fall in line or be swept aside. Nobody in this world can expect to kill 3000 American civilians and expect America to give up! Obama or Bush, the American people do not forgive or forget! You should understand this!
Besides, I'm of the view that Obama wouldn't increase the troops in Afghanistan. Vice President Biden is against this idea. The 52% Americans are against this idea.
You obviously have very little understanding of the US or its policies. Biden is a joke, nobody listens to him and he was never right about anything! He wanted to invade IRaq and didnt want to support the surge! He is a fool and a clown and nobody cares about his opinions!
I think Obama should take wise decisions and don't repeat the mistakes Kennedy did during the "Bay of Pigs" episode in a hope to dismantle the Castro’s government in Cuba on the advise of his military generals and CIA officials, Kennedy committed himself never to be overawed by professional military advice. Kennedy faced international humiliation. Hence, Kennedy learnt a lesson. Bush also repeated the same thing and faced so much of criticism internationally.
This is absolute nonsense and absolutely irrelevant. First, Kennedy didnt listen to the CIA and the Pentagon when he okayed the Bay of Pigs operation! Moreover it was Eisenhower who actually came up with the whole plan. It failed because the CIA was incompetent not because the US military couldnt go into Cuba and sling Castro up by his neck!
Bush despite his misguided reasons for going into Iraq was actually quite successful in the way Iraq turned out in the end because he listened to his generals and his advisers!

Obama shouldn't listen to his Generals and CIA advisers. These military men always create the fittest mess of bloodbath!!
Firstly, the CIA is NOT military! And secondly, you say that Obama should not pull a "Bay of Pigs" and not listen to his generals and his advisors but Kennedy did just that and caused the "Bay of Pigs" incident! :disagree:

Read Kennedy's strategy in Vietnam War. It'd be nice if Obama follows the same, with more or less no changes.
Yes, follow a failed outlook at a war! I think NOT! :no: I think most likely after the Afghan election results are out Obama is going to either ask NATO for more troops from Europe or send more American forces in to finish the job or maybe even do both!
The situation in Afghanistan is not conducive to anybody's security, be it Europe or America.

The real problem however still lies in Pakistan and Pakistan's ability to police its own border and sort out its own troubles. The failure of the Pakistani military's fight against the Taliban would be the greatest deciding factor in the decision to send more troops to Afghanistan.
 
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Omar you should be in politics yes Pakistan "sided " with the US but perhaps you should aslo have included why?

The initial years 1947-1952
After the creation of the two countries, Pakistan followed a more pro western policy whereas the Indian government defined its foreign policy with a more leftist to non aligned stance. Pakistan was looking for strong friends in order to persuade its bigger and much stronger neighbor India to give in to its claims over the territory of Kashmir. Pakistan also needed financial support for its infrastructure development and modernization of its armed forces. Right from the beginning the founder father of Pakistan sent its representative to the US government for financial and military assistance. Pakistan based its case on the post World War scenario of confrontation between the Soviet Union and the West. Pakistan contented that the Soviet Union wanted to get access to the Arabian Sea and to increase its influence in the Middle East. Pakistan was a nation beyond Afghanistan that could avert such Soviet designs. Pakistan as a Muslim state had no affiliations with the communists and was a natural regional ally for the United States. On the other hand, the ruling party in India, the Indian National Congress, and India’s leaders were closer in ideology to socialism and the Soviet Union. As a US ally in the region, Pakistan could provide a foot hold for the US in the region against any Soviet expansionist efforts in South Asia.

From the US perspective, the United States was more occupied in the post war reconstruction in Western Europe and Japan, its containment efforts in South East Asia and the Middle East. The United States in the initial years of Pakistan was less interested in getting involved in the emerging conflicts of South Asia. The Pakistanis wanted to strengthen their relations with the US so as to get an advantage in their confrontation with India over Kashmir. On the other hand, the US did not see the usefulness of a strong relationship with Pakistan and US interests in Pakistan were limited.

Chowk: Current Affairs: A History of US- Pakistan Relations
 
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Some Straight Talk from Sec. Clinton Finally:

:usflag:
 
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i think the americans want to know the same thing as the heading of this thread suggests!
 
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Some Straight Talk from Sec. Clinton Finally:
[url="
- Clinton's Blunt Words[/url]

:usflag:

the US sec of state was very candid in this interview - she put all the interviewers on the back foot - she did a very good job! - she accepted that the US PR needs to improve vrt pakistan and its people.
 
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trust is something that is established with time or some thing that you have when you have no other option other than to trust that person .......it does not come with gurantee like the products you buy on the market........
 
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Wrong. 100% of Americans want the war to end and the bloodshed to stop but 100% of Americans dont want peace at the cost of letting Al Qaeda win! 50% of the people may not want to send more troops to Afghanistan but 100% of Americans support our troops no matter where they are! And 100% of Americans want to win!

You're wrong, dearie!! So far, your Vice President Biden is also of the view not to increase the troops. Loads and loads of Americans think that White House is mortgaging the nation's economy on war. A host of Americans, and let me repeat it again, 52% of Americans want US to withdraw the troops from Afghanistan.

You're making no sense while you say 100% of Americans support US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Well, you should read this news while you talk with so much confidence that 100% American support US-led Nato forces in Afghanistan:

washingtonpost.com

Call this news an ISI's conspiracy or anti Americanism schemed by Pakistanis lol.

Besides, generally who endorses the presence of US troops in Afghanistan, I know that. The number of middle class and poorly educated people I'd say. The mostly educated ones don't support this WAR and of course the presence of US Troops. I'm not talking as 'every' well-educated person opposes the war, I'm talking generally.

What are you talking about -- winning? All you want is to 'win', but you, or rather Washington, never thought of winning the hearts and minds of the residents of Afghanistan, the Afghanis. Instead, you want to win as if by subduing them to an utmost extent. Bad thing!! Pride has a fall!!

You confusing the statistics of people favoring additional troops to Afghanistan with the statistics of people favoring defeating Al Qaeda!
The US is not going to ever let Al Qaeda win, where ever they hide and we are not going to abandon Afghanistan to the Taliban either. The US will not let Afghanistan become another haven for terrorists, come what may! It might take time and it might be bloody but in the end the Taliban will either fall in line or be swept aside. Nobody in this world can expect to kill 3000 American civilians and expect America to give up! Obama or Bush, the American people do not forgive or forget! You should understand this!

Well, as I said you need to look around yourself, in America, to understand who wants what. I can't understand your obsession while you say so surely that 100% supports US troops no matter where they're. Well, you need to check these newses, and keep yourself abreast about Anti War Protests 'within' your own country.

1) BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Thousands join anti-war protest

2) Iraq protesters march on Pentagon - Conflict in Iraq- msnbc.com

3) Scores arrested in protest at White House - UPI.com

It was sometime back that a group of American students protested against the US invasion in Afghanistan and Iraq. They demonstrated a protest in New York along with a massive support of students. Many were arrested.

Dear, when you say that 3000 Americans were killed in 9/11 carnage, I say you had one 9/11. We're having daily 9/11s in Pakistan -- since 9/11 happened. You're endorsing the evil policies and imperialism of Bush administration. While a legion of Obama's supporters, I know, want US troops to vacate Afghanistan and Iraq before long.

You obviously have very little understanding of the US or its policies. Biden is a joke, nobody listens to him and he was never right about anything! He wanted to invade IRaq and didnt want to support the surge! He is a fool and a clown and nobody cares about his opinions!

And you've a great understanding of what's happening in Afghanistan and Iraq, eh? It's my country that suffers, it's my neighbor country that suffers and anything and everything that happens in Afghanistan always have an impact over Pakistan. So more than you, who's sitting across the oceans, we actually know how we're suffering and how innocents are getting killed each passing day. And when US Army or any army 'regrets the loss of innocent lives', I ASK whose life isn't INNOCENT? We all are Innocents!!

This is absolute nonsense and absolutely irrelevant. First, Kennedy didnt listen to the CIA and the Pentagon when he okayed the Bay of Pigs operation! Moreover it was Eisenhower who actually came up with the whole plan. It failed because the CIA was incompetent not because the US military couldnt go into Cuba and sling Castro up by his neck!
Bush despite his misguided reasons for going into Iraq was actually quite successful in the way Iraq turned out in the end because he listened to his generals and his advisers!

That's what I'm saying. Kennedy didn't listen to the professional military advice. In 1961, many of Kennedy’s Generals and advisors argued with Kennedy to increase the number of troops in South Vietnam and save the South Vietnamese government from collapsing. Kennedy, however, categorically refused the idea of surging the number of troops. He already had the embarrassing experience during the “Bay of Pigs” episode when he paid heed to CIA and his Generals and faced international humiliation. The wise man favored a strategy of arming and reinforcing the South Vietnamese Army, and of teaching them new counterinsurgency tactics instead of increasing the number of troops. This strategy worked well. It couldn’t have been better than this. At the time of Kennedy’s assassination in November 1963, the Pentagon had recorded only 108 American military personnel killed.

And about Cuba and Castro, well, CIA did want to assassinate Castro back then. Now c'mon dear, don't be so innocent about CIA's evilness. You need to read this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/us/17inquire.html?_r=1&em

Firstly, the CIA is NOT military! And secondly, you say that Obama should not pull a "Bay of Pigs" and not listen to his generals and his advisors but Kennedy did just that and caused the "Bay of Pigs" incident! :disagree:

Yes, follow a failed outlook at a war! I think NOT! :no: I think most likely after the Afghan election results are out Obama is going to either ask NATO for more troops from Europe or send more American forces in to finish the job or maybe even do both!
The situation in Afghanistan is not conducive to anybody's security, be it Europe or America.

The real problem however still lies in Pakistan and Pakistan's ability to police its own border and sort out its own troubles. The failure of the Pakistani military's fight against the Taliban would be the greatest deciding factor in the decision to send more troops to Afghanistan.

That's what I'm saying. Obama should adopt a wise strategy just like Kennedy did in Vietnam war. Read my above explanations about counterinsurgency tactics and number of deaths recorded.

I'm of the view that Obama won't increase the troops. I'm rather hoping that actually.

Yesterday, Obama made the request in a meeting with Vice President Biden and a small group of senior advisers helping him decide whether to expand the war.

The president has two choices: One is to drastically increase the number of troops in Afghanistan by 40,000 to 60,000. Another is to do nothing or order a purely symbolic increase. Each choice will surely provoke a legion of critics. Not committing to a troop increase, Obama can lose the support of American troops on the ground, influential policy media, and 48% of American population that want increased military presence. However, committing to a troop increase will upset Vice-President Biden who opposes escalation, those who endorsed and celebrated the president’s Nobel Peace prize, and, well, the other half of the American population.

In either case, the president must unite the American people behind his choice.

And lastly, you alleging Pakistan Army is failed to cope with this drastic situation. Let me ask you, what US-led Nato forces have done in Afghanistan in last 8 years? The so-called super-power is yet unable to seize the poppy and opium international trade in Afghanistan, let alone subduing Talibans and al Qaeda :D
 
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You are just spouting rhetoric.
Its a shame that you as a Pakistani cant seem to grasp the value of democracy, especially when your country's founder fought to make it so!

How could US talk about Democracy and promoting Democracy when it always supported Dictatorship in Pakistan :D

As of late, it supported Musharraf for 9 years and after that Washington started thinking to install a Democratic Government in 2008 -- the so called Democratic Government where US is still meddling in Pakistan's affairs all the time by disturbing the already disturbed democracy. Just now, Madam Hillary Clinton wants ISI's chief to be a Civilian. Why she wants it? We'll decide on our own. Who are you to dictate us? Could you leash your CIA first? Could you be vigilant about CIA's dirty tactics and maneuvering all over the world. Nasty things. Those agencies have now become a self-perpetuating entities unto themselves.
 
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