What Does China Have To DO To Become THE World Power?

[Genesis]

Bla bla bla CCP pro, KMT trash, blabla, Russia abandoned us bla bla, China strong!!!!11

Come back when you have something concrete not cheaply paid hot air.

So the Sino-Soviet Split was because the USSR was too liberal with their tech?

While that may be......admittedly i wouldn't know about literacy, but on other things you mention you are not being completely forthcoming, namely the external factors in the timeframe you mention.....China was hit by great depression, then Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931, then outright invasion in 1937 and by the time you mention 1949 a civil war has just ended.

Not really a good environment to produce literates etc....unlike post 1949 when CCP had lots and lots of external help, predominantly from USSR.

You also neglect to mention the turmoil in 1912 after fall of Qing when the country fell into chaos and regional warlords ruled and that control over the country was established by KMT only by 1927.

Fair and unbiased assesment eh? :lol

China received FDI as early as 1930's.....perhaps if KMT (reunifying the country in 1927) would have won the civil war the embrio of Chinese dream wouldn't have to be put on hold until 1980's and Deng. I would dare wager that is even the more likely of outcomes....

Economic history of China (1912–49) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for your last statement, penniless Vietnamese refugees are better at honest debate (when the talk isn't Vietnam) than you will ever be.

In short, your post is a complete fallacy (like we didn't see that coming), comparing two uncomparables, which are uncomparable by mere examination of external factors involved.

Would KMT have been better? On the surface it certainly seems so, until you remember they had purges not better than we did, except, by 1945, had there been no Communists, another civil war would have broke out again anyways, though this time Chang would have the decisive advantage, but a civil war never the less.

By 1980s, Japan was a willing partner, manufacturing was shifting out of the developed world, environmental regulations, higher wages and all those things contributed far more than a willing China in our economic recovery. This is also the reason I am skeptical on some other nation's dream of doing the economic "miracle."

Japan didn't really come into its own until much later, and that was with a far more developed country than China at the turn of 1950s.

I like to think what ifs too, but the thing about what ifs is that it's best left alone, we know what's already happened, and that is good enough.


We also need to remember for all the bad CCP did, it made China the world's biggest atheists, realists, and it made gender equality(though still rather unequal) a thing that people can accept.

I mean today, you be shocked at what a authoritarian Communist China allows, tolerates or even welcomes in China.

 

[Audio]

So the Sino-Soviet Split was because the USSR was too liberal with their tech?

No? What kind of question is this? Where have i alluded to it being so?

Would KMT have been better? .

I do not know, but certainly debating about it here brings no satisfactory answer apart from preconditioned responses consisting of fallacies and outright obfuscation of facts.

We also need to remember for all the bad CCP did

No doubt CCP did great things too for the country and i have no illusions KMT were saints......but i object to this insulting of my intelligence by trying to feed me info which i know is not a complete truth, is an outright lie or anything in between.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Forsaken by the Chinese people....does this mean...loosing all major assets and who knows how many men against the Japanese? Which strengthened CCP? Which didn't really fight much in WW2.

Don't teach me history.....ya, Sino-Soviet split, but until then vast amounts of things were received from your communist brothers.

- Well, KMT itself had many different factions. Chiang only wanted to preserve his own faction and sent other factions as the cannon fodder against the Japanese. Many other left-wing KMT factions were also getting persecuted by Chiang as they were labelled as the commie sympathizers. Those left-wing KMT factions did join CPC after the WWII to overthrow Chiang. Blame Chiang and his croonies for losing the faith of its people.

- Soviet Union did help us a lot for the industrialization, but they still refused to help us to build the nukes and nuclear subs. That's China's nukes and nuclear subs are vastly different from Russia's. PS, the aid from USSR was not a free meal, we did earn this reward from the Korean War. Initially, Stalin didn't trust Mao and CPC because they were not his chosen puppets, so Mao did earn his trust by fighting the Korean War which gave USSR a buffer zone to recover itself from the damage done by the WWII.

 

[Genesis]

No? What kind of question is this? Where have i alluded to it being so?

You are not saying China developed our own nuclear program? We may have taken some liberties, but the USSR certainly didn't help us as much as some seems to think.

I do not know, but certainly debating about it here brings no satisfactory answer apart from preconditioned responses consisting of fallacies and outright obfuscation of facts.

What's preconditioned? What do you want to hear? Is the answer you wanted not preconditioned? This is the problem that a lot of people seem to have, they never see the good, like the fact we are the best developing country in the world and soon to join the developed nations.

There are tons of problems in China, but most see the last 30 years as positive, and with the new generation, who even remembers the days of revolution past.

This is the main reason the China doubters are wrong all the time, they focus on the negative, because that's what's in front of them, but the changes on the ground is so massive in China, that the average Chinese just doesn't feel the same way.

The US gets a lot of hate too and people wonder why Americans want to live there, and Europe also gets hate, but the reality is always different. Some just choose not to see it.

 

[Audio]

- Well, KMT itself had many different factions. Chiang only wanted to preserve his own faction and sent other factions as the cannon fodder against the Japanese. Many other left-wing KMT factions were also getting persecuted by Chiang as they were labelled as the commie sympathizers. Those left-wing KMT factions did join CPC after the WWII to overthrow Chiang. Blame Chiang and his croonies for losing the faith of its people.

- Soviet Union did help us a lot for the industrialization, but they still refused to help us to build the nukes and nuclear subs. That's China's nukes and nuclear subs are vastly different from Russia's. PS, the aid from USSR was not a free meal, we did earn this reward from the Korean War. Initially, Stalin didn't trust Mao and CPC because they were not his chosen puppets, so Mao did earn his trust by fighting the Korean War which gave USSR a buffer zone to recover itself from the damage done by the WWII.

I'm out of time to reply, will do tommorow.
Better answer than before.

You are not saying China developed our own nuclear program? We may have taken some liberties, but the USSR certainly didn't help us as much as some seems to think.

Who knows what documentation was left behind when USSR techs left. Who knows what documentation arrived to China when it was still planned to

What's preconditioned? What do you want to hear? Is the answer you wanted not preconditioned? This is the problem that a lot of people seem to have, they never see the good, like the fact we are the best developing country in the world and soon to join the developed nations.

There are tons of problems in China, but most see the last 30 years as positive, and with the new generation, who even remembers the days of revolution past.

This is the main reason the China doubters are wrong all the time, they focus on the negative, because that's what's in front of them, but the changes on the ground is so massive in China, that the average Chinese just doesn't feel the same way.

Objective debate. That's what i would want to hear.
I would have thought that in the couple of months while i have been absent, the situation at home (deteriorating economy as a consequence of growth frenzy) would put you guys on firmer ground a bit at least when debating to foreigners who know for many if not most of your mistakes and a good deal of your history. Alas, no.
Also, i would have imagined that now, it would not be so important to keep up "le grande image" of China, because more or less anyone knowledgeable knows you have arrived on world stage.

As for the doubters, their doubts are materializing right now.

 

[Genesis]

Objective debate. That's what i would want to hear.
I would have thought that in the couple of months while i have been absent, the situation at home (deteriorating economy as a consequence of growth frenzy) would put you guys on firmer ground a bit at least when debating to foreigners who know for many if not most of your mistakes and a good deal of your history. Alas, no.
Also, i would have imagined that now, it would not be so important to keep up "le grande image" of China, because more or less anyone knowledgeable knows you have arrived on world stage.

As for the doubters, their doubts are materializing right now.

You want an objective debate on something that never happened? I'll leave with one thing about KMT, when the civil war started, Mao had a few hundred thousand men and even less guns, Chang had millions of American equipped troops, and he still lost, maybe there's a reason for that. Just saying.

The people, including me on this forum, are mostly Western influenced, and if you were to google, you would know why we are on the defensive, most Chinese in China, would be far more aggressive in their approach.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Forsaken by the Chinese people....does this mean...loosing all major assets and who knows how many men against the Japanese? Which strengthened CCP? Which didn't really fight much in WW2.

CCP had no obligation to fight in WW2. It was not the government representing all China at the time and did not command national assets. KMT fought Japan incompetently and that is why it lost its assets. If it was competent either diplomatically or militarily it wouldn't have lost so much.

Objective debate. That's what i would want to hear.
I would have thought that in the couple of months while i have been absent, the situation at home (deteriorating economy as a consequence of growth frenzy) would put you guys on firmer ground a bit at least when debating to foreigners who know for many if not most of your mistakes and a good deal of your history. Alas, no.
Also, i would have imagined that now, it would not be so important to keep up "le grande image" of China, because more or less anyone knowledgeable knows you have arrived on world stage.

As for the doubters, their doubts are materializing right now.

I don't feel anything. Life goes on as before. The decreasing economic growth rate doesn't affect me at all because the infrastructure is already built, the foundations of society are stable and most importantly the government insulates the people from most ups and downs of the market. Its just like how the financial crisis in the US first started affecting only the elite upper class, and only began affecting ordinary people when the government was no longer able to insulate the public from the ups and downs of the market.

 

[jkroo]

It seems like you guys love to talk economy history and achivements with an inconvincible guy.

Hope you guys take a deep breath.

@ChineseTiger1986 @Genesis

 

[Keel]

It seems like you guys love to talk economy history and achivements with an inconvincible guy.

Hope you guys take a deep breath.

@ChineseTiger1986 @Genesis

Absolute waste of time arguing with that guy

Chinese Pint Art Painting

 

[Audio]

You want an objective debate on something that never happened?

As objective as one can get, avoiding fallacies like comparing achievements of CCP in 1970's to KMT's in 1920's. With completely different set of conditions under which both governments operated.

I'll leave with one thing about KMT, when the civil war started, Mao had a few hundred thousand men and even less guns, Chang had millions of American equipped troops, and he still lost, maybe there's a reason for that. Just saying.

Ya, Japanese happened. I assume by "the start of civil war" you mean 1927.

The people, including me on this forum, are mostly Western influenced, and if you were to google, you would know why we are on the defensive, most Chinese in China, would be far more aggressive in their approach.

Don't matter much if you're a defensive or offensive liar. You're still a liar. Not speaking about you personally....

- Well, KMT itself had many different factions. Chiang only wanted to preserve his own faction and sent other factions as the cannon fodder against the Japanese. Many other left-wing KMT factions were also getting persecuted by Chiang as they were labelled as the commie sympathizers. Those left-wing KMT factions did join CPC after the WWII to overthrow Chiang. Blame Chiang and his croonies for losing the faith of its people.

KMT was autocratic. Just like CCP is today.

And if there was a war like WWII right now, CCP would also loose power, like KMT did. Because all those instruments CCP has at it's disposal to stymy dissent would be more or less in chaos, like KMT's secret service (Dai Li) was.






@FairAndUnbiased

Please do not quote me anymore. I do not wish to debate with you. Ever. You're just too much below any sort of standards conducive to an intelligent and objective debate.

 

[northeast]

Military Power is always the true power.How to use your military power to improve your influence is the key to become a geopolitical world power.Economy is rather a tool than power，in 90s' Japan is a economic super power once its GDP reaches 70% of US，but it's not really a super power after all.Britain and France is far more like a world power than Japan.Although Japan was a world power in WWII,I think most people would agree with it.Military power brings political power,without it,no country will really cares about your country after all.And just ignore the Confucian gabbage,it have nothing to do with being a world power,it's laughable.

 

[Genesis]

As objective as one can get, avoiding fallacies like comparing achievements of CCP in 1970's to KMT's in 1920's. With completely different set of conditions under which both governments operated.

too many factors, a series of books can be written on this subject. For now, can we agree that what happened happened, and China at the moment can be much worse.

Ya, Japanese happened. I assume by "the start of civil war" you mean 1927.

Talking 1945, end of WW2. Mao had 5000 men if that by 1927, and few guns with no cities.

Don't matter much if you're a defensive or offensive liar. You're still a liar. Not speaking about you personally....

Some facts are exaggerated, sure, some are also underrepresented, all depends on how you look at it. For example, current SCS, no wars have broken out, no shots fired, peaceful, yet, you can also say tensions are high and stability shaken. It depends on how you want to look at it.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

KMT was autocratic. Just like CCP is today.

And if there was a war like WWII right now, CCP would also loose power, like KMT did. Because all those instruments CCP has at it's disposal to stymy dissent would be more or less in chaos, like KMT's secret service (Dai Li) was.

KMT was a loose entity that was comprised by many different warlords, they were not similar to today's CPC at all.

 

[Tiger Genie]

@beijingwalker - do you mean the only world power or one of the world's powerful countries?

No country including the US can politically become THE only power.

To become ONE of the powerful countries - a few things will help:
1) Become significantly less dependent on exports than now
2) Introduce a better political system inside China
3) Allow free market economics inside China
4) Treat Chinese from all parts of the country equal
5) Publish true numbers - for all governments and state owned companies

 

[Jaggu]

China just needs to stay on course and eventually it will surpass the west in economic power which will also mean military super power