What could have PAF done in Kargil war

[Zob]

and ONE KAISER TAUFIL says it and i believe it as a god send.....what if i give you an article by an indian saying india was losing in KARGIL will you belive it.....and just answer this how many troops did you commit and how many did we.....and given all your "facts" which side lost fighters....please my friend....tell me how can we loose...we didn't commit enough army,airforce or anything....

 

[chindit]

and ONE KAISER TAUFIL says it and i believe it as a god send.....what if i give you an article by an indian saying india was losing in KARGIL will you belive it.....and just answer this how many troops did you commit and how many did we.....and given all your "facts" which side lost fighters....please my friend....tell me how can we loose...we didn't commit enough army,airforce or anything....

Your ONE Kaiser tufail was a serving Air Commodore at that time Find me an article by an Indian Air Commodore that states that IAF did badly

 

[haawk]

GP,

The problem for the PAF was that the fighting was going on across the LoC on your side. PAF could not have crossed over to support the ground forces in the Kargil region as the ramifications would have been far reaching (all out war). So there were RoE limitations as well.

The efficacy of IAF was questionable (IA questioned their effectiveness). The pounding was because of the Indian Artillery.

\
lets see -your army was on our side of the LOC fighting and your airforce could not do so because it didnt want to cross the border hmmmmm i dont get it !!!!!!!!!!
then you question our airforce 's efficacy when your airforce didnt want to even cross borders lol

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Kargil operation was full with suprise element . Pakistan Army took complet advantage in area. Pakistan Army blocked the Indian national highway by artillary fire. It was beginning of summer. It was time to send supplies to Siachin through National High Way. India was in difficult situation and they want to open high way before winter. Pakistan militray thought that this operation would be like siachin and nothing will come out to world. There was a close room presentation given to Nawaz Sharif, Prime Minister of Pakistan and cabinet members, during the Kargil conflict Nawaz Sharif also visited the Area. He was aware of the plans. Pakistan Foreign Office was'nt prepared the case well to present to world. Military command was not prepared to handle the worst scenario. Militray hardware and ammunation was in area already. Troops from the elite Special Services Group as well as four to seven battalions of the Northern Light Infantry were on posts. Pakistani forces took stand that these areas are in hands of Kashmiri guerrillas. That was also a bigger mistake. Then Government of India responded with Operation Vijay, a mobilisation of 200,000 Indian troops. Two divisions of the Indian Army, numbering 20,000, plus several thousand from the Paramilitary forces of India and the air force were deployed in the conflict zone. Musharraf stated that 500 square miles (1,300 km&#178 of was occupied. PAF was not prepared and technically for PAF was not favourable to go in operation area without BVR capability. Indian Airforce did what they can. They destroyed Pakistan ammunation stores, Indian Artillary fired on Pakistan posts and fired on supply lines to stop supply. There was shortage of Army troops, ammunation and artillary although fire of Pakistan artillary was very precise. Last week before withdrawl indians were able to capture Tiger hill, with growing international pressure, Sharif managed to pull back the remaining soldiers from Indian territory. The joint statement issued by Clinton and Sharif conveyed the need to respect the Line of Control and resume bilateral talks as the best forum to resolve all disputes. Pakistan Army and politicans repeated history 4th time and failed to attain something positive. Sharif on Ptv in address to nation totally contradicted that "There is no road that goes from Sirinagar to kargil". Pakistan Army losted 400 troops, for indians that should be four to five times higher because they had to go up to capture hills. U.S. Intelligence study is reported to have stated that Kargil was yet another example of Pakistan’s (lack of) grand strategy, repeating the follies of the previous wars. Being a pakistani for me it is shameful. Look indians know that Siachin is not there part but they are there and Kahsmir is disputed area and we got upper hand and then again withdrawl.

 

[godsavetheworld]

According to my knowledge pakistani F-16 were 100 km away from su 30 mki which were bombing on pakistani forces. Idont understand what the hell our government have done in this regard. I think purchasing of jf-17 should be cancelled and pakistani is to get only50 Rafales to counter india. Our government giving orders to get quantity not quality what is you response towards this.
What about Pakistan air force and BVR technology.

The MKI never 'engaged' nor did the undertake any 'bombing missions'. When IAF flew a few sorties(one of which was shot down) to pinpoint the exact position of PA soldiers, you sent in your F-16's. As a response, IAF sent in the MKI, which had BVR and the F-16 did not. So the F-16 disengaged, giving IAF a complete air superiority.

 

[abrakadabra]

The MKI never 'engaged' nor did the undertake any 'bombing missions'. When IAF flew a few sorties(one of which was shot down) to pinpoint the exact position of PA soldiers, you sent in your F-16's. As a response, IAF sent in the MKI, which had BVR and the F-16 did not. So the F-16 disengaged, giving IAF a complete air superiority.

Did India have operational MKI's at that time? WIKI says the following about MKIs.

First flight: 1 July 1997
Introduced: 27 September 2002

 

[abrakadabra]

and ONE KAISER TAUFIL says it and i believe it as a god send.....what if i give you an article by an indian saying india was losing in KARGIL will you belive it.....and just answer this how many troops did you commit and how many did we.....and given all your "facts" which side lost fighters....please my friend....tell me how can we loose...we didn't commit enough army,airforce or anything....

Yes, India committed more troops, probably lost more men, used AirForce. You are right. This was the price that India had to pay for the lax in finding out of incursions. By the time India noticed and had an idea of the nature of the incursions, Pakistanis were already occupying vantage positions, heights and were in reinforced bunkers that could not be destroyed by the MIGs used.

Coming to who won or who lost - this is determined by whose objectives were met. India's objectives were to eject the occupants and to isolate Pakisthan diplomatically. I thought India successfully achieved them.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

The MKI never 'engaged' nor did the undertake any 'bombing missions'. When IAF flew a few sorties(one of which was shot down) to pinpoint the exact position of PA soldiers, you sent in your F-16's. As a response, IAF sent in the MKI, which had BVR and the F-16 did not. So the F-16 disengaged, giving IAF a complete air superiority.

No MKI was there. It was the MiG 29 from Adampur base I suppose. They had a lock on 2 F 16s across the border.

 

[spsk]

Kargil operation was full with suprise element . Pakistan Army took complet advantage in area. Pakistan Army blocked the Indian national highway by artillary fire. It was beginning of summer. It was time to send supplies to Siachin through National High Way. India was in difficult situation and they want to open high way before winter. Pakistan militray thought that this operation would be like siachin and nothing will come out to world. There was a close room presentation given to Nawaz Sharif, Prime Minister of Pakistan and cabinet members, during the Kargil conflict Nawaz Sharif also visited the Area. He was aware of the plans. Pakistan Foreign Office was'nt prepared the case well to present to world. Military command was not prepared to handle the worst scenario. Militray hardware and ammunation was in area already. Troops from the elite Special Services Group as well as four to seven battalions of the Northern Light Infantry were on posts. Pakistani forces took stand that these areas are in hands of Kashmiri guerrillas. That was also a bigger mistake. Then Government of India responded with Operation Vijay, a mobilisation of 200,000 Indian troops. Two divisions of the Indian Army, numbering 20,000, plus several thousand from the Paramilitary forces of India and the air force were deployed in the conflict zone. Musharraf stated that 500 square miles (1,300 km²) of was occupied. PAF was not prepared and technically for PAF was not favourable to go in operation area without BVR capability. Indian Airforce did what they can. They destroyed Pakistan ammunation stores, Indian Artillary fired on Pakistan posts and fired on supply lines to stop supply. There was shortage of Army troops, ammunation and artillary although fire of Pakistan artillary was very precise. Last week before withdrawl indians were able to capture Tiger hill, with growing international pressure, Sharif managed to pull back the remaining soldiers from Indian territory. The joint statement issued by Clinton and Sharif conveyed the need to respect the Line of Control and resume bilateral talks as the best forum to resolve all disputes. Pakistan Army and politicans repeated history 4th time and failed to attain something positive. Sharif on Ptv in address to nation totally contradicted that "There is no road that goes from Sirinagar to kargil". Pakistan Army losted 400 troops, for indians that should be four to five times higher because they had to go up to capture hills. U.S. Intelligence study is reported to have stated that Kargil was yet another example of Pakistan’s (lack of) grand strategy, repeating the follies of the previous wars. Being a pakistani for me it is shameful. Look indians know that Siachin is not there part but they are there and Kahsmir is disputed area and we got upper hand and then again withdrawl.

If you had upper hand why did Pakistan decided to with draw the troops ? You get upper hand only when you have total control of situation both by military and diplomacy . If your military really had upper hand why Nawaz "Blamed" Mush for Kargil ? I think as a prime minister he would have definitely taken credit.

If Kargil is a grand strategy of Pakistan why did they ignored even to accept the dead bodies of Pakistani Soldiers?

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Let me clear, i pointed out that Pakistan failed to get success. Obviously we were in better position in start, Idia took just Tiger hill back in complete operation and other area given back by Pakistan just to deescalate the situation. Yes pakistan did'nt used air force because we did'nt have BVR capability. It was a good chance to do some business but due to lack of grand strategy failed to attain something positive. History repeated again and we failed but India with 3to4 times more loss got success. Siachin was our part it is our part & we will take back.

 

[SQ8]

Sun tzu made the simplest statement
"The victorious general only seeks battle after the victory has been won"

Kargil was a folly,like many other strategic blunders by our armed forces.
While initial tactical gains were made.. as an overall strategy, It looked like a repeat of operation Gibraltar. The operation was launched with quite a few Corp Cmdrs not in favor of it including the current chief, yet in the Initial stages of it were quite optimistic, I was in bhurban during the whole time and sat beside my father as he was shown the maps of where we were on the peaks. True we had the Indians by the neck and a few more weeks of the status quo would have meant thousands of Indian troops starved for supplies but somehow...deja vu occured and we were not prepared for a punch to our bellies. The brilliant planners at GHQ again made the assumption that what happens in Kashmir, stays in Kashmir. And when India threatened to expand the war their legs went weak and begged the civilian govt to bail them out,This required us begging the Americans to intervene, who simply gave us hell and told us to get out and not expect a ceasefire. The result, as our troops evacuated they were cut down like swiss cheese. I have accounts from two different heli pilots who tell of choppers filled with bodies and blood being washed away ala "we were soldiers" style.
As far as the Airforce is concerned, they would have made little difference. We were infiltrating the Indian side, it was on thier side of the LOC. ROE's from the Indian side were not to violate Pakistani airspace, which they did not usually, they conducted air strikes on our hapless troops and pulled up just before crossing, those that did cross were shot down. Our aircraft that tried to oppose them were locked up from BVR and had to bug out due to inability to counter it which was the smart thing to do.
The simple quagmire that effects Pakistan is we have a system in place in out army that runs on nepotism after the brigadier level, and so usually only those who remain quiet and say "Yes SIR" even if they oppose it or those who are sycophantic hypocrites who only praise the higher authority make it to the level of general. And when ever these people end up planning an operation they start and conveniently call the other forces and say"Hey, we're attacking India today.. so tell the wife you arent coming home tonight".
About the Kargil I have personally heard accounts of Navy Cmdrs begging to be declared unfit at PNS Shifa for fear of being killed if they went out to sea which was certain, such is the calibre of some officers. Then they are expected to fight a much larger, better equipped enemy with utter devotion.
Simply, let us forgo the Idea that at any time for the past 12 years can we expect to repeat the successes of the 65 and 71 wars. back then, it still mattered if you could bring your older machine to bring a pipper on the enemy.. whether it was a sabre on mig-21 or a mystere on a starfighter.
Now.. you can be an excellent aerobat but when there is a R-77 locked on to you in its active mode and you cant do buns about it.. That is the time you blame your leaders for throwing your life away.
apologies for the off topic meandering.. but some posts are too ignorant or irrational to be left alone.

 

[SQ8]

Sun tzu made the simplest statement
"The victorious general only seeks battle after the victory has been won"

Kargil was a folly,like many other strategic blunders by our armed forces.
While initial tactical gains were made.. as an overall strategy, It looked like a repeat of operation Gibraltar. The operation was launched with quite a few Corp Cmdrs not in favor of it including the current chief, yet in the Initial stages of it were quite optimistic, I was in bhurban during the whole time and sat beside my father as he was shown the maps of where we were on the peaks. True we had the Indians by the neck and a few more weeks of the status quo would have meant thousands of Indian troops starved for supplies but somehow...deja vu occured and we were not prepared for a punch to our bellies. The brilliant planners at GHQ again made the assumption that what happens in Kashmir, stays in Kashmir. And when India threatened to expand the war their legs went weak and begged the civilian govt to bail them out,This required us begging the Americans to intervene, who simply gave us hell and told us to get out and not expect a ceasefire. The result, as our troops evacuated they were cut down like swiss cheese. I have accounts from two different heli pilots who tell of choppers filled with bodies and blood being washed away ala "we were soldiers" style.
As far as the Airforce is concerned, they would have made little difference. We were infiltrating the Indian side, it was on thier side of the LOC. ROE's from the Indian side were not to violate Pakistani airspace, which they did not usually, they conducted air strikes on our hapless troops and pulled up just before crossing, those that did cross were shot down. Our aircraft that tried to oppose them were locked up from BVR and had to bug out due to inability to counter it which was the smart thing to do.
The simple quagmire that effects Pakistan is we have a system in place in out army that runs on nepotism after the brigadier level, and so usually only those who remain quiet and say "Yes SIR" even if they oppose it or those who are sycophantic hypocrites who only praise the higher authority make it to the level of general. And when ever these people end up planning an operation they start and conveniently call the other forces and say"Hey, we're attacking India today.. so tell the wife you arent coming home tonight".
About the Kargil I have personally heard accounts of Navy Cmdrs begging to be declared unfit at PNS Shifa for fear of being killed if they went out to sea which was certain, such is the calibre of some officers. Then they are expected to fight a much larger, better equipped enemy with utter devotion.
Simply, let us forgo the Idea that at any time for the past 12 years can we expect to repeat the successes of the 65 and 71 wars. back then, it still mattered if you could bring your older machine to bring a pipper on the enemy.. whether it was a sabre on mig-21 or a mystere on a starfighter.
Now.. you can be an excellent aerobat but when there is a R-77 locked on to you in its active mode and you cant do buns about it.. That is the time you blame your leaders for throwing your life away.
apologies for the off topic meandering.. but some posts are too ignorant or irrational to be left alone.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Very nice arguments. Monst of our soliders lost their lives when they were withdrawing after cease fire by artillary fire. Indians occupied Siachin and they sticked their and Pakistan occupied Kargil, then.............!

 

[wtf]

Very nice arguments. Monst of our soliders lost their lives when they were withdrawing after cease fire by artillary fire. Indians occupied Siachin and they sticked their and Pakistan occupied Kargil, then.............!

I believe the ceasefire was held in Kargil. One of the terms of the deal Nawaz Sharif made with US was that there be no firing during withdrawal.
Indian TV had coverage on news of people withdrawing and it was pretty clear there was no firing going on.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

During withdrawl indian's started artillary fire. Most pakistani soliders died during withdrawl rather than in fighting during operation. Indian TV coverage was fake during operation.