We have proof of Indian hand in terrorism: Malik

[Windjammer]

You sound like you are proud of those dozen jihadis...

Were they Jihadis,???? there is no reason to rejoice where innocent civilians are killed, i was replying to sarcastic remarks by your country fellow.

 

[Spitfighter]

Which means India has no evidence - case closed and my point validated - your leadership continues to rant about Pakistani complicity in the Mumbai attacks and terrorism in India despite having no evidence. So no point criticizing Pakistan for doing the same.

What you didn't take from that is the fact that GoP does nothing to stop them, therefore it is complacent, and before you tell me that there are seven people on trial, do read about what they have been charged with.

Any thoughts on the charges?

 

[Hulk]

Here lot of Pakistani believes on that GOP has evidence against India and are convinced. Think few months back when same thing was said by Indians what was your reaction to it. The point I am making that same evidence look different when you have it against the other.

If these evidence are proof of Indian involvement then it is also true that Pakistan is sponsoring terrorism in India for past 30 years and ISI and PA trained groups like LeT. It is not done that your proof is proof and our proof is no proof. Have same standards.

If anyone remembers, I told in this forum that it is not very easy to prove conclusively involvement any countries involvement in other country. Mark my word this will never be proved.

 

[SMC]

Here lot of Pakistani believes on that GOP has evidence against India and are convinced. Think few months back when same thing was said by Indians what was your reaction to it. The point I am making that same evidence look different when you have it against the other.

If these evidence are proof of Indian involvement then it is also true that Pakistan is sponsoring terrorism in India for past 30 years and ISI and PA trained groups like LeT. It is not done that your proof is proof and our proof is no proof. Have same standards.

If anyone remembers, I told in this forum that it is not very easy to prove conclusively involvement any countries involvement in other country. Mark my word this will never be proved.

So what you're saying is that india may very well be involved, but it might be impossible to prove it? You might be onto something here, and the indian members who believe everything is black and white in this world should read this.

Well either way, I know for a fact that the proof exists. This scumbag backstabber government needs to be replaced by someone that can take india to cleaners for sponsering mass terrorism.

 

[SparklingCrescent]

when do we stop saying this to teh air and start saying this to teh world??? how come this is never on news... I only see this "Indias involved in Pakistan" flowing around here.... It makes our government so week, nobody hears us... we still see India yelling at us about the Mumbai incident even after 1 year, and when ever we find evidence of RAW's involvement, the issue will never be carried on but will end tomarrow, and thats what I hate about it...

Im not anti Pakistani, but our government is becoming weeker.. May Allah help our Pakistan and its Rulers... Aameen..

 

[Hulk]

So what you're saying is that india may very well be involved, but it might be impossible to prove it? You might be onto something here, and the indian members who believe everything is black and white in this world should read this.

Well either way, I know for a fact that the proof exists. This scumbag backstabber government needs to be replaced by someone that can take india to cleaners for sponsering mass terrorism.

I by policy do not take a hard stand unless until I am 100% sure, hence I kept that possibility open.

What I am saying goes much beyond what you understood. What I wanted to say is lets have unbiased stand, when you expect Indians to be open to their involvement, you should also accept your involvement.
LeT was created by PA and they attacked India number of times including 26/11. If you continue to say this is myth and nothing is true and LeT is charitable organization, how do you accept Indian's to accept something for which no proof has been given.

This is just a forum and if we cannot be truthful to each other here but rather think of scoring points, no wonder how our politicians are reacting.

The time GOP took to accept Kasab is a Pakistani was enough for any sane person to know what was the story. Did you asked this question to yourself that why we tried to hide his identity, then without thinking yourself as Pakistani answer the question and you will see the truth.

Now my dear friend, brother whatever we can call each other, do you think it is worth fighting with each other or we will wake up any day to realize the importance of peace.

I said this once and repeat this again, if giving Kashmir will Pakistan our friend, I will go for that option (for the sake of peace). IMO having Pakistan as friend is more valuable than Kashmir.

 

[SMC]

You're right I think. I do realize that Pakistan has created terrorists for its interests. The Kashmir part is a little iffy and obviously most indians won't agree with that. Regardless, what really irks me is the arguments put forward by some Indians, such as no government in the world believes you and everyone believes our story, if we have proof then we would have given it, US has denied any indian involvement, etc. I mean how naive can these people can be. Do they have any fifth of a clue of how international politics works.

 

[evolutionist]

There are a couple of reasons why Malik is accusing Indian hand in recent bombings, mostly to divert the attention from his incrimination in NRO and to get Pakistani public opinion more focused on India than him and secondly recent FBI revelations of involvement of American citizen of Pakistani origin David Headley alias Dawood Gilani. Dawood is talking like a canary and has implicated Pakistani Chicago embassy official also involvement of serving military officers including his close association with people in PM Gilani's office. This just a tactict of crying wolf!

 

[navtrek]

Your media is a blatant liar and master at distorting facts. Show me videos that prove that our media placed responsibility on PAK state.

Indian media has been ardently trying to blame Pakistan and through other means collectively punishing pakistan for her ulterior designs


You still have to prove those attacks were motivated or funded by Pakistani State

Hello those are American agents testifying in front of a court my friend there is nothing to lie there.

 

[SMC]

There are a couple of reasons why Malik is accusing Indian hand in recent bombings, mostly to divert the attention from his incrimination in NRO and to get Pakistani public opinion more focused on India than him and secondly recent FBI revelations of involvement of American citizen of Pakistani origin David Headley alias Dawood Gilani. Dawood is talking like a canary and has implicated Pakistani Chicago embassy official also involvement of serving military officers including his close association with people in PM Gilani's office. This just a tactict of crying wolf!

True. I am baking some cookies as well. You want some?

 

[toxic_pus]

Which means India has no evidence - case closed and my point validated - your leadership continues to rant about Pakistani complicity in the Mumbai attacks and terrorism in India despite having no evidence. So no point criticizing Pakistan for doing the same.

You have actually accepted that Pakistan doesn't have any evidence against India either.

I guess that closes our case and validates our point.

Anyway, India has provided enough proof of involvement of Pakistani 'non-state actors', (which on a sunny day, and to a non-Pakistani, would point to the connivance of the state actors - but not today). That alone is proof that Pakistan is the launch pad for terrorism directed at India, and Pakistani resources are feeding it (whether or not Pakistani state actors are involved).

Pakistan is struggling to even provide an equivalent evidence against 'India'. The question is why?

But then, "the answer my friend, is blowin' in the wind".

 

[gogbot]

You're right I think. I do realize that Pakistan has created terrorists for its interests. The Kashmir part is a little iffy and obviously most indians won't agree with that. Regardless, what really irks me is the arguments put forward by some Indians, such as no government in the world believes you and everyone believes our story, if we have proof then we would have given it, US has denied any indian involvement, etc. I mean how naive can these people can be. Do they have any fifth of a clue of how international politics works.

How is that a good thing your saying not a single nation on earth wants to side with Pakistan.

What about China. where are they in all this. Why dont u ask them to make a public statement.

IF you have proof somebody out there will support u.

Go public, dont tell me, your government has such weak independent autonomy that It cant break free of US influence and do what it wants.

IF India is involved in terrorism, bring it to light . Any indian politicin involved should go to jail. It's wrong and it goes against everything i believe.

How paranoid are u to assume that Out of two solutions.

-India is not invloved

-Everyone in the world is working against Pakistan to hide the truth.

The latter is the one that seems more likely.

 

[FreekiN]

Put the proof onto the table, then we'll discuss. Until then, this is trolling.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

If you're suffering from a disease, should you be taking your doctor to task for failing to cure you, or should you spend more time focusing on the person who you say gave it to you?

I said a while ago that searching for conclusive, even substantial, proof in this context is the pursuit of a mirage.

We are looking at any proof through the prism of our respective prejudices. Indians and Pakistanis are all too ready to accept anything our governments tell us, and reject what the other claims.

But think of this - would you implicitly trust a police officer in your country who claims that the spate of crimes in your neighbourhood is not due to his incompetence? Would you trust your politician when he tells you he will solve your problems if you vote for him?

I don't think so. Both sides know the quality of public services, public servants and rampant corruption in our respective countries. So why trust them when they tell you that 'others', not they, are responsible for the ills in your country? And that they have proof?

The anger that these 'rabble rousers' incite in you should be directed primarily at them. Are they not primarily responsible? Where is there accountability? Why do you elect/ pay them?

So why not spend more time on 'fixing' the doctor to 'fix' your disease?

Someone mentioned the Golden Temple - that actually is an example of when the Indian state identified the root cause and fixed it (we also spent years blaming Pakistan - and this was the origin of the famous 'foreign hand' phrase). Unlike Kashmir, where we continue to chant the same old slogans blaming Pakistan who we say has given us the disease.

I guarantee you - a few months/ years from now, Pakistan will be exactly where it is now, unless you spend most of your time identifying internal reasons for the situation. Because they are primarily internal reasons. No one can disrupt a functioning country like this unless that state itself is primarily at fault.

I sometimes think it is in the nature of South Asian and even Arabic societies to blame everyone else but themselves.

Take the 1973 Yom Kippur war. Without getting into a debate of who won, the commonly accepted wisdom is that the Israelis won militarily, but the Egyptians won politically/ strategically (got Sinai back).

And yet, after the war, all the Israelis could do was a critical self evaluation, a searching self examination, a flagellation even, of why they suffered reverses in the early days of the war. A Colonel in their armoured corps made heated remarks accusing PM Golda Meir of incompetence.

The Egyptians promptly declared victory (which it was in a sense), but did not - as a society- do further self examination of the why, despite a brilliant opening strategy and immense competence/ bravery of their army, they came close to military destruction near the end.

 

[Goodperson]

View: A case of unchecked terrorists —Ishtiaq Ahmed

For several months now Mr Malik had been insisting on his having conclusive and incontrovertible proof of Indian involvement in terrorism as well as secessionism in Balochistan. He challenged India’s Defence Minister, AK Antony, to come to Pakistan to see for himself the evidence he had. Mr Antony ignored his standing invitation and rejected his accusations

Interior Minister Rehman Malik has ruled out the presence of any US terrorists in Pakistan. “There is no presence of Blackwater in Pakistan...Unfortunately, all the terrorists in the country are Pakistani nationals.” He further informed that so far 74 terrorists had been apprehended (Daily Times, December 11, 2009). Now, if there is no US terrorist in Pakistan and all the terrorists in the country are Pakistani nationals, it does not mean that there is no Blackwater presence in Pakistan. I am not sure if the honourable minister was quoted fully and properly.

However, the reference to Blackwater is a bit of a diversion from the real object of writing this essay. For several months now Mr Malik had been insisting on his having conclusive and incontrovertible proof of Indian involvement in terrorism as well as secessionism in Balochistan. He challenged India’s Defence Minister, AK Antony, to come to Pakistan to see for himself the evidence he had. Mr Antony ignored his standing invitation and rejected his accusations. Apparently the proof was sent by the Interior Ministry to the Pakistan Foreign Ministry. Initially the Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi expressed his doubts about the material he had received. He presented his position with diplomatic finesse: “The possibility that there are elements who want to destabilise the country cannot be ruled out. But information received by us in this regard is insufficient. We need more information and material to plausibly argue our case” (Daily Times, December 10, 2009). A few days later, Mr Qureshi changed his position and said that there was solid proof linking India to terrorism in Pakistan (Daily Times, December 14, 2009).

To concerned observers and analysts, such vacillation does not convey the impression that the Pakistan government has a coherent stand on this matter. In sharp contrast, soon after the terrorist attacks in Mumbai on November 26, 2008, India quickly produced Ajmal Kasab on television and showed footage of the attack in Mumbai. His family was also seen on television screens and his father owned his son. Some such dramatic steps are needed if the accusations against India are to be considered serious. It makes me wonder if the problem with the evidence, if not wholly but significantly, is its controversial nature; in other words, is it a case of unchecked terrorists?

Farrukh Khan Pitafi in his article ‘The Taliban apologists’ (Daily Times, December 10, 2009), took up the problem of a peculiar type of ‘evidence’ of an Indian hand in terrorism, which has for quite some time been making rounds on the Internet. It comprises disturbing snapshots of naked, dead, uncircumcised men. I began receiving such material some months ago, followed by comments by apparently educated individuals; all convinced that the men in the pictures were Hindus. The argument was that Indian Hindus had been fighting on the side of the Tehrik-e-Taliban of the late Baitullah Mehsud. Some went further and opined that since the dead men had high cheekbones, they must be Nepalese Gurkhas who are also Hindus. Such an observation suggested that the commentators must have a military background and that too of some seniority, otherwise who remembers the Gurkhas anymore in Pakistan.

I wonder if Saadat Hasan Manto (died Lahore, 1955) were to return from his eternal sleep how he would handle such evidence. He would surely be confused if he had not moved back in time to 1947 instead of forward into 2009.

To display naked men and their private parts on the Internet constitutes a flagrant disregard of human decency, but in Pakistan even educated people are oblivious to that. For some strange reason I got greatly intrigued by such allegations that I tried with the help of a magnifying glass to make out if the dead men were really uncircumcised, even brought fluorescent light lamps to my aid but it was impossible to make out with certainty. I consulted some better-informed people to check if it is true that all Pakistani Muslim men were circumcised. My own assumption was that it was not a self-evident truth. We all know that not all Pakistani Muslim men eat three meals a day all their lives and vast numbers have no proper home or shelter to return to. Under these circumstances the assumption that their parents would have the means to pay the barber and make offerings to the maulvi to consummate the circumcision ritual, seemed flawed.

Mr Shuja Nawaz, the celebrated author of Crossed Swords, a virtual compendium on the history of the Pakistan Army, told me that in the mountainous areas live many people who have never been integrated into society and among such people compliance with Islamic practises and rituals was quite lax. I believe this is true even of the people of the plains of the Punjab that I know pretty well. There are nomadic tribes, pauperised peasants and artisans, and hundreds of thousands of nondescript wretches who live on the margins of societies. I would not be surprised that many such people are in the ranks of the Taliban for no other reason except that they have been coerced and did not resist, because there is nothing in their lives to attract them to normal existence.

Therefore one can very sincerely hope that our Interior Ministry gathers such evidence against promoters of terrorism that is admissible in a court of law both domestically as well as at the international level. It is better to accuse India of what it does in Pakistan’s internal affairs on the basis of hard facts rather than employ overkill tactics with material that would not hold water in a court of law. The best antidote, of course, to Baloch secessionism is to address the genuine grievances of the Baloch and win their loyalty to Pakistan on a voluntary basis. I believe something is on the way and that is a very welcome development.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan