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We cross Himalayas for education: Tibetan students

When you have to built a road in India or any democratic nation, you have to go through the process, time consuming. Thank America for what China is today, Thank Nixon and Kissinger especially.

In china and singapore you wanna make a road, you make it. People get homeless, but then again it doesnt matter. Check the three gorges dam.

China is one of the world largest human rights violators

Adu,

Time is something democracy can not buy. China has a lot of catching up to do, building infrastructure is one of her top priorities. Three Gorges is an excellent example of how comon interest works; three million people get displaced but hundreds of millions will benefit from it.
If thats the price you have to pay for being undemocratic, I'd say lets double it and uplift the country for the greater benefit.

China's progress for last 25 years is a result of such policies, if China wants to deliver, she delivers! Looking at the improvement in life standard and overall uplift I can't say chinese are suffering from central rule.

Well done China! :china:
 
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Adu,

Time is something democracy can not buy.

True...


If thats the price you have to pay for being undemocratic, I'd say lets double it and uplift the country for the greater benefit.

As long as you are not the one who is paying the price, you have no righ to ask other's to do so. Its about compensation which is equable to what they have lost, it aint happening in three gorge's case.

Looking at the improvement in life standard and overall uplift I can't say chinese are suffering from central rule.

There is so much under the rug, China is more volatile than the Indian real estate bubble.
 
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As long as you are not the one who is paying the price, you have no righ to ask other's to do so. Its about compensation which is equable to what they have lost, it aint happening in three gorge's case.
You are soooo missing the point here! Lets assume this one dicision to build the Three Gorges Dam was taken democratically, its would still have been largely supported by majority of 1.3 billion Chinese at the cost of say 25-50 million from the affected region that would vote 'nay'.
Would it have made any differnece for the fate of the affected?

So what good is democracy here...its just a tag! Losers will still be losers but the country would gain....
 
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Oh, the point is not wether the dam has to be built or not. It has to be. But at what cost and what is compensation. MY POINT is that it is easier to do it in a Commie government, since the people have to take whatever compensation and walk away, while in democratic govenrment you have the appeals processes etc. Therefore making it more time consuming and expensive.
 
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Is that good or bad? :confused:

Depends on the prespective doesnt it,
The human factor!!!!!!
Compensation must be just for the trouble caused to their life, Democracy ensures that, while autocratic rules dont. The independence of the judiciary ensures that, as well as various other mechanisms.


Its quite similar to " its better to leave 1000 murderer's scot free than execute an innocent man"
 
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Is that good or bad? :confused:

Good question Neo.

Autocracy now, is dictating the lives of millions to hardships for a supposed better life for the new comers.

Is a democratic (and hence slower) normal growth for people better than an oppressingly fast, and a directed growth for people?

I've tried to answer the question myself, when I was younger I would tend to accept Chinese ways... especially when illeteracy and poverty shroud the country.

But, for sometime now - I think about the lives of people being opressed - and it makes me wonder in awe of the magnitude of sacrifice going in to this whole game.

Destroying your freedom today for a possibly better (but not guranteed to be free) tomorrow? No!

That's for crazed fanatics who do not respect and understand what life is.
 
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Adu,

Time is something democracy can not buy. China has a lot of catching up to do, building infrastructure is one of her top priorities. Three Gorges is an excellent example of how comon interest works; three million people get displaced but hundreds of millions will benefit from it.
If thats the price you have to pay for being undemocratic, I'd say lets double it and uplift the country for the greater benefit.

China's progress for last 25 years is a result of such policies, if China wants to deliver, she delivers! Looking at the improvement in life standard and overall uplift I can't say chinese are suffering from central rule.

Well done China! :china:

I am afraid I will have to disagree with you Neo.

No human being is a born a slave in today's world.

Therefore, to benefit hundred of million, a couple of million cannot be made to pay the price.

In India, we are having a whole lot of problem because State govts want to displace people to build factories and industries. People are dying for their land and their rights. That is democracy and freedom. It has happened twice in my State, Singur and Nandigram and my State govt is a Communist govt. People have and are resisting losing their hearth and home. I am sure you would yourself have resisted, being a citizen of a democratic country with human rights at your disposal.

In a pure communist country, anything can happen that the govt decides. Mao did his Cultural Revolution and millions died. He had the Peoples Army to back his ruthlessness. Maybe it was good for China that so many died, if the Chinese feel that way. But to a normal democratic human being, it was a massacre and total chaos.

Russia also went from a poor agrarian country to become a failed state, after reaching its zenith as a superpower!.

Communism is a quick fix, I will agree. But in the long run it will collapse and the communist country will come to grief as is the case with Russia. Human beings are born free! They have their yearnings too!

In Pakistan, Mushrraf forced the economy to shoot upwards. But the one man rule, though democratic in shape, is now telling on Pakistan. The people, who are democratic in mindset as in Pakistan cannot be directed. They require participation and greater say in their lives.
 
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Adu,

Time is something democracy can not buy. China has a lot of catching up to do, building infrastructure is one of her top priorities. Three Gorges is an excellent example of how comon interest works; three million people get displaced but hundreds of millions will benefit from it.
If thats the price you have to pay for being undemocratic, I'd say lets double it and uplift the country for the greater benefit.

China's progress for last 25 years is a result of such policies, if China wants to deliver, she delivers! Looking at the improvement in life standard and overall uplift I can't say chinese are suffering from central rule.

Well done China! :china:

What sort of facts are u basing your assumptions on when u say 'overall upliftment'.
 
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You are soooo missing the point here! Lets assume this one dicision to build the Three Gorges Dam was taken democratically, its would still have been largely supported by majority of 1.3 billion Chinese at the cost of say 25-50 million from the affected region that would vote 'nay'.
Would it have made any differnece for the fate of the affected?

So what good is democracy here...its just a tag! Losers will still be losers but the country would gain....

Well the question is neo, whether the same will be applicable for tomorrow? Hitler tried to say that killing of jews was good for germans. Are you saying because the 1.3 billion of germans(here chinese) voted for it, we can do anything for 25-50 millions of jews(say the three gorges dam, say uighuirs, say tibetans).

Democracy is about majority deciding the future and at the same time guaranteeing minority rights. Please come out of the simple definition of democracy which means only voting. It is much more than it. It cant thrive without independent judiciary, free press, non-partisan bureaucracy and much more. Every thing of the above need not be perfect, they have to be just enough to provide a deterrent.

yes, democracy and free media would have made a hell lot of difference. The representatives of the displaced will be crying out loud for their rights. Whoever would have been representing those people, would have no chance of getting reelecting if the displacement was without enough compensation.- which means the representatives would be putting their future political career on their line, which I believe is a enough motivator for many of even the worst.
 
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Neo,

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Are you suggesting Pakistan is better off under Communism and you would like to be a Communist under Chinese conditions?

While ti makes me rpoud that an Asian country is doing real well and keeping the so called heroes under check, yet having seen a wee bit of Communists in action (and under check), I sure would hate to live under communists!

The Commies think they are beyond law and they alone will decide our fate! In my State they have what is known as the 'Coordinating Committees' in every department and villages and they are above law!
 
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Yes, there are sometimes problems of the food distribution system in India and hence there is hunger.

This is an interesting read:

Autocratic Ghosts and Chinese Hunger

1958-1961 was the darkest period in PRC history, Mao had made historically the stupidest call of the "great leap forward" than ever before during a "Three Years of Natural Disasters", even within CPC it was drastically debated. It's just amazing that the country did not collapse in the very disaster both naturally and mistakenly.

Anyway it's history, natural disasters still rages every few years but China has been far away from any famine. Actually famines had been major disasters over traditional agrarian countries like China and India in their histories. so, bringing up historical comparison on each others famine record doesn't make any sense here. below are famines in Indian history:

1800-1825: 1 million Indians died of famine
1850-1875: 5 millions died of famine in Bengal, Orissa, Rajastan and Bihar
1875-1902: 26 million Indians died of famine (1876-1878: 10 millions)
1905-1906: famine raged in areas with the population of 3,3 million.
1906-1907: famine captured areas with the population of 13 million
1907-1908: famine captured areas populated by 49,6 million Indians.
In 1943, India experienced the second Bengal famine of 1943. Over 3 million people died.
In 1966, there was a 'near miss' in Bihar.
1970-1973 A further 'near miss' food crisis occurred due to drought in Maharashtra.
1974-1975: A famine in Bangladesh, formerly part of India and the area primarily affected by the above Bengal famines, caused more than 1 million deaths.

India hasn't really suffered from any famine in its modern history, but food crisis always exists by now, while in China it was successfully resolved 25 years ago.



If the people become too rich, then they cannot be commanded by remuneration; if they are too strong, they cannot be intimidated by punishment. Huan Kuan, Discourse on Salt and Iron

one word: ridiculous

famine is a kind of tragedy, dont make it conspiratorial.

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Now a real interesting read

Does Democracy Avert Famine?

  Amartya Sen‘s Famous Theory Is Being Tested by Starvation in India
    
  http://folk.uio.no/danbanik/NYTarticle2003.htm
    
  By MICHAEL MASSING
    
Few scholars have left more of a mark on the field of development economics than Amartya Sen.
    
The winner of the 1998 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Science, Mr. Sen has changed the way economists think about such issues as collective decision-making, welfare economics and measuring poverty. He has pioneered the use of economic tools to highlight gender inequality, and he helped the United Nations devise its Human Development Index — today the most widely used measure of how well nations meet basic social needs.
    
More than anything, though, Mr. Sen is known for his work on famine. Just as Adam Smith is associated with the phrase “invisible hand“ and Joseph Schumpeter with “creative destruction,“ Mr. Sen is famous for his assertion that famines do not occur in democracies. “No famine has ever taken place in the history of the world in a functioning democracy,“ he wrote in “Democracy as Freedom“ (Anchor, 1999). This, he explained, is because democratic governments “have to win elections and face public criticism, and have strong incentive to undertake measures to avert famines and other catastrophes.“ This proposition, advanced in a host of books and articles, has shaped the thinking of a generation of policy makers, scholars and relief workers who deal with famine.
    
Now, however, in India, the main focus of Mr. Sen‘s research, there are growing reports of starvation. In drought-ravaged states like Rajasthan in the west and Orissa in the east, many families have been reduced to eating bark and grass to stay alive. Already thousands may have died. This is occurring against a backdrop of endemic hunger and malnutrition. About 350 million of India‘s one billion people go to bed hungry every night, and half of all Indian children are malnourished. Meanwhile, the country is awash in grain, with the government sitting on a surplus of more than 50 million tons. Such want amid such plenty has generated public protests, critical editorials and an appeal to India‘s Supreme Court to force the government to use its surpluses to feed the hungry.
    
All of which has raised new questions about Mr. Sen‘s famous thesis. In an article critical of him in The Observer of London last summer, Vandana Shiva, an ecological activist in India, wrote that while it is true that famine disappeared in India in 1947, with independence and elections, it is “making a comeback.“ The problem, she added in an interview, “has not yet reached the scale seen in the Horn of Africa,“ but if nothing is done, “in three or four years India could be in the same straits.“
    
To Mr. Sen, though, it is not the thesis that needs revision but the popular understanding of it. Yes, famines do not occur in democracies, he said in a phone interview, but “it would be a misapprehension to believe that democracy solves the problem of hunger.“ Mr. Sen, who is the master of Trinity College at Cambridge University, said his writings on famine frequently noted the problems India has had in feeding its people, and he was baffled by the amount of attention his comments about famine and democracy had received. The Nobel committee, in awarding its prize, did not even mention this aspect of his work, he said, adding, however, that many newspapers had seized on it and misrepresented it.
    
Mr. Sen‘s views about famine and hunger have recently been put to the test by Dan Banik, an Indian-born political scientist at the University of Oslo. Mr. Banik has spent much of the last several years in India, studying the parched, desperate Kalahandi region of Orissa. In that area alone, Mr. Banik said by phone from India, he found 300 starvation deaths in six months. And they are hardly unique. “I have collected newspaper reports on starvation for six years in Indian newspapers,“ he said, “and there‘s not a state where it hasn‘t happened. Starvation is widespread in India.“
    
He quickly added, however, that the toll was nowhere near the hundreds of thousands that constitute a famine. In fact, Mr. Sen‘s theory about famines not occurring in democracies “applies rather well to India,“ he said. “There has not been a large-scale loss of life since 1947.“ At the same time, he said, “there have been many incidents of large-scale food crises that, while not resulting in actual famines, have led to many, many deaths.“

While the Indian bureaucracy responds well to highly visible crises like famine threats, Mr. Banik observed, starvation “occurs in isolated areas and so isn‘t very visible.“ India has done an even poorer job of addressing the problem of chronic malnutrition, he said. “It‘s so shocking,“ Mr. Banik added. “There‘s so much food in the country, yet people are starving.“ Advertisement
    
India‘s huge food stocks reflect the power of the farm lobby. It has pressed the government to buy grain at ever higher prices, making bread and other staples more and more expensive. To help the hungry, the government has a national network of ration shops, but they have been undermined by widespread corruption and distribution bottlenecks. What‘s more, the government, under pressure from the World Bank and other institutions, has reduced its once-generous food subsidies.
    
On a visit to New Delhi in early January, Mr. Sen participated in a forum to publicize the recent starvation deaths and to promote a new “right to food“ movement. While such events show how democracies can provide opportunities for “public agitation“ to redress injustices, Mr. Sen said, they also highlight how poorly India has done in meeting basic social needs. “We must distinguish between the role of democracy in preventing famine and the comparative ineffectiveness of democracy in preventing regular undernourishment,“ he observed.
    
That Mr. Sen would end up as the foremost thinker on this subject is somewhat surprising, for he initially paid little attention to the link between hunger and democracy. When the International Labor Organization asked him to look into the causes of famines in the mid-1970‘s, Mr. Sen decided to focus on the Great Bengal Famine of 1943, in which as many as three million people died. As a 9-year-old boy in a privileged Bengal family, he had seen the suffering first hand. At the time of his research, it was widely assumed that famines were caused by sudden food shortages.
    
Examining records, however, Mr. Sen found that food production in Bengal had not declined. Rather, food prices had soared while farm wages had sagged, making it hard for rural workers to buy food. Examining more recent famines in Ethiopia and Bangladesh, Mr. Sen found that they, too, were caused not by food shortages but by lagging rural incomes. In his landmark “Poverty and Famines“ (1981), he argued that most famines could be readily prevented by mounting public works projects for those most in peril.
    
That book did not consider the role of democracy. Soon after it appeared, however, Mr. Sen began hearing reports about the Chinese famine of 1958 to 1961. The full dimensions of that calamity had remained hidden from the outside world, but after Mao‘s death it became clear that tens of millions had died. To Mr. Sen the reason seemed clear: the absence of a free press and opposition parties meant there was no one to sound the alarm. By contrast, India had been free of famine since independence. In a 1982 article for The New York Review of Books, Mr. Sen argued that even a fraction of the Chinese death toll “would have immediately caused a storm in the newspapers and a turmoil in the Indian parliament, and the ruling government would almost certainly have had to resign.“
    
The question of food and starvation, he wrote, could not be divorced from “the issue of liberties, of newspapers and ultimately of democracy.“ Since then, though, Mr. Sen has frequently referred to India‘s failures in combating everyday hunger. In his book “Hunger and Public Action“ (1989), Mr. Sen (along with the co-author, Jean Drèze) noted that nearly four million people die prematurely in India every year from malnutrition and related problems. That‘s more than the number who perished during the entire Bengal famine.
    
It is Mr. Sen‘s writings on democracy, not famine, that have troubled some scholars. Throughout his prolific career, the 69-year-old economist has been very bullish on democracy. In “Development as Freedom,“ for instance, he wrote that “developing and strengthening a democratic system is an essential component of the process of development.“ The book had little to say about the high rates of malnutrition, illiteracy and infant mortality that persist in India and many other democracies, and how they can be overcome.
    
This has led some to conclude that Mr. Sen is naïve about how democracies work in the real world. “Democracies are often run by ethnically based groups prepared to do terrible things to other ethnic groups,“ said Frances Stewart, a professor of development economics at Oxford University. “Or they can be very corrupt, dominated by elites.“ She added: “Capitalist, democratic states put the emphasis on the private sector, which doesn‘t always deliver on social goods. The free press is good on major disasters like classic famines, but it tolerates chronic hunger as much as anyone else.“ To be fully represented, she said, the poor need institutions like trade unions and political parties that speak for them. Advertisement
    
Stephen Devereux, an economist at the Institute of Development Studies at Sussex University who specializes in food security in Africa, faulted Mr. Sen for not dealing with the “big political questions.“ “For him,“ he said, “public action consists of public works programs — limited transfers to the poor to help them through a crisis. It‘s important to look more at fundamental reforms, like land reform.“ Currently, Mr. Devereux said, more than a half-dozen countries in Africa face a famine threat, including such democracies as Ethiopia.
    
There, he said, conditions are “as bad as in 1984,“ when famine deaths were estimated at one million. Ethiopia was then ruled by a Marxist dictator. Today it is democratically governed, but as many as six million people remain dependent on food aid from abroad. “Having a free press and a democratic process is important for all kinds of reasons,“ Mr. Devereux noted, “but that doesn‘t address poverty and the conditions that lead to famine.“ With the spread of laissez-faire economic policies, he added, governments have less ability to “step in and provide food security.“
    
Other scholars, however, say that government itself is the problem. T. N. Srinivasan, a professor of economics at Yale University, says that political freedoms, to work, need to be complemented by economic freedoms. Mr. Sen, he said, “doesn‘t emphasize enough the importance of free markets, trade and access to world markets and capital.“ The reason authoritarian China has grown more rapidly than democratic India, he said, is its embrace of economic liberalization. Mr. Sen, he added, “seems to have a much dimmer view of globalization than people like me, who see open markets as the best opportunity of the last century“ for countries to grow and develop.
    
What unites Mr. Sen‘s liberal and conservative critics is their belief that democracy, while desirable, is no cure-all for problems like hunger and illiteracy. In fact, in his more recent writings, Mr. Sen has paid more attention to the shortcomings of democracy and how they can be addressed. The key, he said, is not to jettison democracy but to find ways of making it work better for society‘s underdogs.
    
source: New York Times, Books & Arts, of March 1, 2003.
 
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First of all, Amartya Sen is a Communist and even if he has won a Nobel Prize, doesn't make him a cat's whiskers for me!

As far as famines etc, lets look at the times when India became independent and China became Communist.

The saying of Huan Kuan is not mine. He is a Chinese and so pick a bone with him.

The things I like about China is Chinese food (Calcutta style) and the progress China has made to challenge the west.

But what is wrong with China, is wrong!
 
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First of all, Amartya Sen is a Communist and even if he has won a Nobel Prize, doesn't make him a cat's whiskers for me!

As far as famines etc, lets look at the times when India became independent and China became Communist.

The saying of Huan Kuan is not mine. He is a Chinese and so pick a bone with him.

The things I like about China is Chinese food (Calcutta style) and the progress China has made to challenge the west.

But what is wrong with China, is wrong!

man I doubt you've run through the article. at least pls make certain who's talking in there. :lol:
what I'm sure about Amartya Sen from the article is: he's a loyal drum beater for democracy.
but along with you, I too, never buy Amartya Sen's cup of tea! :cheers: :azn:
 
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kvLin, I've really been impressed with the efficiency of the Chinese government...
You've definitely got some smart folks up there!

This is actually the debate of the Century: i.e. Which form of government will succeed?
Democracy or a Communist single party system?


What do the people here think?

I've started a new thread for this topic.


Where is your thread?

Facts show that most "democratic" countries in Asia have been failed to deliver so far, among which is India!

Facts stand more convincing than just easy, empty blabla...
 
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