Washington's Loss, Moscow's Gain? Russia 'Cozying Up' With Pakistan

[Dukkar]

will Russia be giving 2 billion $ arms dole every year like USA & UK ?

 

[mercurydancer]

To really understand Russian geopolitical thinking, even strategic thinking, you must realise that they see themselves at the centre of the world, but have enemies on every border. They do not think Russia is the land of the free, as America considers itself invulnerable.

Russia in the last decade improved its oil resources until it was a major power. Fine, say OPEC. We just drop the price of oil. Russia has also modernised its military. Not in a transient, 4 year political way, as the US do, with the next president likely to overturn military projects, bust something more substantial than that. Of course this means export.

Apart from economic offensives, which every country does if it can, Russia is no more militarily aggressive than any other. It does not need to be.

What Russia badly needs, is a viable opposition party to Putin and Medvedev. Its unlikely that anyone can emerge as an opponent to Putin. Many people in Russia despise Putin, many for good reasons, but it is not solely his responsibility that the rouble is worth half what it was two years ago.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Compared to the other means available to the US, yes..definitely.
US armed forces did their job in the best way possible in a hostile terrain...if you believe otherwise, I'm all ears!

AQ has now 6 platforms.. Instead of 1.
Taliban still control Afghanistan.
Afghanistan still has no "democracy & freedom".
Hundreds of thousands of civilians have died and are dying.

What are you blabbering on about?

What?

The US toppled the Afghan Taliban in power and brought the civilian government to Kabul...Check

Lmao.. Taliban still control Afghanistan.
They aren't even considered terrorists by USA..(now).
US is advocating peace talks with so called "defeated" terrorists.

Killed OBL...Check

AQ is more dangerous than ever.
ISIS has emerged in Afghanistan.

Funded and built up the ANA..which might not be the most capable force, but at least it gives the civilian govt. a chance..and recently with more experience are holding their own..Check!

According to US & NATO reports.. 95% of ANA is useless ... Corrupt ... Indisciplined/criminals in uniform.
Has no chance..

Destroy the Al-Qaeda network (ongoing)...Check!

Failed to do so- check!

Last I checked, the US withdrawal was in 2014...your lot was going ape shit over the "fall of Kabul" post the withdrawal...within days!

Nobody was going ape shyt.. Instead of acting like a c..t .. You should have read Paks statement on the issue.. Asking the Americans not to withdraw..
Which they didn't and hence Kabul has been regularly bombed but not fallen.

Still waiting for Kabul to fall..and certainly not holding my breath.

Didn't you soil your pants during Kunduz? Do you want Kabul next? Ask the Afghans the number of troops they lost in the previous fighting season and are still losing.

What exactly are whistle blowers if not concerned citizens?

Should ask Snowden.

which other country or its people even introspect and hold their armed forces morally responsible? Except the US and some european nations none have even an inclination to create checks and balances..especially when the US can pretty much get away with anything they want..
Certainly not India...
and definitely not Pakistan...I mean in '71 your armed forces pretty much got a free hand from your population (not that you were democratic) but even today, those responsible for '71 have not been ostracized. You people would rather debate the accuracy of the number of Bangladeshi's massacred than bring any of those responsible for excesses to justice..
Why am I even debating this with you...im beating a dead horse!

Horse shyt.

Funny coming from a Pakistani...whose country is basically on all fours waiting and begging for the next big guy to throw them a bone..
When everyone from the middle east to the far east has been running a train on your country (for its existance), its hilarious to hear you mouthing off about hookers and what not...lol!

coming from an Indian it's ironic..
The biggest beggar of the world .. Which sucks aid from all nations.. in the tune of hundreds of billions.. Yet acts like a snob... Provides its bases to US to spy on China.. Begs for mil and civilian aid during wars .. But still acts like ... pathetic people indeed.. No wonder Nixon had such positive views about your "country".

 

[Tipu7]

What are you blabbering on about?

The US toppled the Afghan Taliban in power and brought the civilian government to Kabul...Check
Killed OBL...Check
Funded and built up the ANA..which might not be the most capable force, but at least it gives the civilian govt. a chance..and recently with more experience are holding their own..Check!
Destroy the Al-Qaeda network (ongoing)...Check!

Last I checked, the US withdrawal was in 2014...your lot was going ape shit over the "fall of Kabul" post the withdrawal...within days!

Still waiting for Kabul to fall..and certainly not holding my breath

How naive.........

With respect to monetary issues....

Compare the value of this:

In the 1980s, Pakistan agreed to pay $658 million for 28 F-16 fighter jets from the United States; however the US congress froze the deal, citing objections to Pakistan's nuclear ambitions. Under the terms of the American cancellation, the US kept both the money and the planes, leading to angry claims of theft by Pakistanis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan–United_States_relations

With the value of this:

Pakistan receives foreign aid from several different countries and international organization. Since the start of the War in Afghanistan, the majority of the Aid comes from the United States.The Majority of US assistance to Pakistan is from the Coalition Support Fund which is reimbursement to Pakistan for expenses already incurred and compensation for facilities made available to the coalition forces such as the Shamsi Airfield and Dalbandin air bases by Pakistan as well as $4 billion has been billed to CSF Fund for the training and services provided by American Military and contractors to Pakistan Security Forces
...
Between 2002-2010, US Congress approved $18 billion[7] in military and economic aid from the United States. However the Pakistan Treasury only received $8.647 billion in direct financial payments.
...
Military and economic aid 2002 - 2011
Total 11.740 billion military and 6.08 billion economic
...
In total, the United States obligated nearly $75 billion to Pakistan between 1948 and 2014
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Pakistan

2002-2011: 1.174 billion military aid + 0.608 billion economic aid per year > total 1.78 billion USD annually for 10 years
1948-2014: About 1.3 billion USD annually over 66 years.

So long as you're addicted to the money ....

Plz stop doing such complex calculations of aid and help and stuff like that.
We have suffered much more under the flag of USA...... particularly in War on Terror.......
Now American children are sleeping with peace in their homes..... and here our children can't even go to school and have paid price with blood....n.
Our economy have suffered more that 105 billion$ in war on terror alone...... and here you are counting the "blessings" of United States on Pakistan....... cut the non sense yr

Horse shyt.

With whom you are debating.....?
Judging from his points I believe either he is alien from Andromeda galaxy, or a mole living in hole for past five years...... or a BBC/Fox news kid who have absolutely no idea where the World is going.....

 

[Penguin]

How naive.........


Plz stop doing such complex calculations of aid and help and stuff like that.
We have suffered much more under the flag of USA...... particularly in War on Terror.......
Now American children are sleeping with peace in their homes..... and here our children can't even go to school and have paid price with blood....n.
Our economy have suffered more that 105 billion$ in war on terror alone...... and here you are counting the "blessings" of United States on Pakistan....... cut the non sense yr


With whom you are debating.....?
Judging from his points I believe either he is alien from Andromeda galaxy, or a mole living in hole for past five years...... or a BBC/Fox news kid who have absolutely no idea where the World is going.....

Nothing complex about it: a onetime loss of 660 million USD related to F16s is more than off-set by well over 1 billion USD in aid annually for the past 66 years. Imagine how much more you would have suffered without that annual aid. How many other nations have provided that kind of support for so long? Of course, the US does so in it's own interest but, sorry, it is simply too easy to blame the US for all your troubles.

 

[Tipu7]

Nothing complex about it: a onetime loss of 660 million USD related to F16s is more than off-set by well over 1 billion USD in aid annually for the past 66 years. Imagine how much more you would have suffered without that annual aid. How many other nations have provided that kind of support for so long? Of course, the US does so in it's own interest but, sorry, it is simply too easy to blame the US for all your troubles.

I will blame them for every core price Pakistan paid for the sake of United States......
And as per aid....... it's a curse.......

 

[Abingdonboy]

On another note I think some Pakistanis are crazily optimistic about Russian ties. Do remember this is the same country which leased nuclear submarines to India, enabling them to work on their sea based deterrent, which is now at an advanced stage.

I think Pakistan has ample oppurtunites to deepen ties with Russia provided Putin sees a benefit to it. Russia does't really have a government but a self-styled modern day Tsar with a close group of advisors/friends and the entire industry of Russia is now run on patronage and through the Kremlin (ie Putin).

I think, this is, to a degree, why India is now distancing itself from Russia because it is becoming a country that India no longer has alligning interests with and it is not a country where institutions exist to ensure continuity of ties, it is all based on Putin's perrogative.

Modi, another self-styled "tough guy", has nothing in comparison to Putin's influence within his country. Indian foreign policy is less influenced by personal agendas but very rigid institutions and long standing ties thus there is a signifcant disconnect between the two sides and I feel that the Indian side has seen Russia for what it is- an autocracy in decline.

 

[Tshering22]

I think Pakistan has ample oppurtunites to deepen ties with Russia provided Putin sees a benefit to it. Russia does't really have a government but a self-styled modern day Tsar with a close group of advisors/friends and the entire industry of Russia is now run on patronage and through the Kremlin (ie Putin).

I think, this is, to a degree, why India is now distancing itself from Russia because it is becoming a country that India no longer has alligning interests with and it is not a country where institutions exist to ensure continuity of ties, it is all based on Putin's perrogative.

Modi, another self-styled "tough guy", has nothing in comparison to Putin's influence within his country. Indian foreign policy is less influenced by personal agendas but very rigid institutions and long standing ties thus there is a signifcant disconnect between the two sides and I feel that the Indian side has seen Russia for what it is- an autocracy in decline.

We don't care what Putin does to run his country. We are not democracy's poster boys either.

Putin has been trying to coax Pakistan onto the nexus of countries that would stand against US influence, sensing Islamabad's sense of disillusionment of US.

But I don't see why is there such a slowdown in momentum between us and the Russians.

We remain strong partners. However it would be foolish to assume that he is planning to ditch us over another country.

To Putin, India and Pakistan serve 2 different objectives.

I'd tell you to hold on to your pointers and wait.

I will blame them for every core price Pakistan paid for the sake of United States......
And as per aid....... it's a curse.......

View attachment 291044

Only Pakistan can help Pakistan stand up as an independent country with a unique world view, sir.

If you are expecting Russians, Chinese or even martians to come and give you a push, you are only deluding yourself.

They can advise you, aid you financially and set up industries; the rest has to be done by your leaders, your people and your youth.

 

[Abingdonboy]

We remain strong partners. However it would be foolish to assume that he is planning to ditch us over another country.

I'm not saying Putin is going to ditch India or vice versa but the two sides are reaching a point where their exclusive relationship has reached the limit of its utility to both sides and thus more exotic options will have to be explored. Russia is now looking more to Pakistan and China whilst India is busy trying to form deeper strategic ties with France (who arguably has more to offer India in the long term).

We don't care what Putin does to run his country. We are not democracy's poster boys either.

This wasn't what I was trying to say either. I was simply trying to say that Putin's Russia is not the USSR/Russia of old and India should/likely does appreciate that. This new dynamic will have its own specific consequences to both sides.

 

[Penguin]

I will blame them for every core price Pakistan paid for the sake of United States......
And as per aid....... it's a curse.......

View attachment 291044

Its predominantly military aid. Go figure. Look at your own government and political system.

 

[Tipu7]

Its predominantly military aid. Go figure. Look at your own government and political system.

Military aid for what,?

"DO MORE".......???

Without this "AID" or "DO MORE" our armed forces might be in better shape......

 

[Finer]

Pakistan needs to maintain diplomatic relationship with both Russia and USA. Pakistan being closer to Russia does help being taken into the consideration for the important tasks USA assign, and precisely the same reasons why Russia is getting closer to Pakistan in response to India recent collaboration with USA. It is all about temporary strategy interest. But Pakistan and Russia alliance can be permanent depending on how China plays the card. It is imperative why CPEC must succeed because ultimately it is interconnected from Middle East to Central Asia through Pakistan big way, and there is no way Russia will not jump for the big picture knowing China is the main architect of the Gawadar Port.

 

[somebozo]

the Russians aren't going to sell their high end tech , they have just opened their market in a economic crisis.

Russia used to be in the top GDP list , now its now they aren't even in the top 14.

Its not about what Russia will sell its about what the buyer will buy..we asked them for SU35..they did not agree..we go back to high tech F16..we asked them for the AL-31 Engines..they agreed..we bought..plain and simple economics..

No need my friend. You lost half your country during that time. Does "East Pakistan" ring a bell? Or better yet "Bangladesh"? If not, well google it.

.

Well dear Russian stick up to their allies better than Americans any day..does North Korea ring a bell? Does Syria rings a bell??

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151207/1031370037/russia-pakistan-navy-drills-arabian-sea.html

There is a big message behind that drill..when keywords like Pakistan and Arabian Sea are involved..Russian and Chinese naval assets docking at Gawadar changes entire power balance in the region...Not only the US fifth fleet docked in Bahrain finds its powers curbed..but the Arabs also have some backup charge in case the americans behave bad...

 

[Penguin]

Military aid for what,?

"DO MORE".......???

Without this "AID" or "DO MORE" our armed forces might be in better shape......

For what? To have a military!

In case you didn't notice, e.g. PN has been using quite a few ex-USN ships for quite some time e.g. Brooke and Garcia class frigates, Gearing class destroyers. You also operate P-3C Orions iirc. Army used to operate M48 tanks (300 in reserve). It operates some 1600 M113s plus 24 M901 ITV variant (Tow atgw) , 265 M109 155mm SPGHs, 60 M110 203mm SPGH, some 50 M7 105mm SPGH, plus some 713 towed howitzers of US make (M59, M101, M114, M115, M198) and some 166 US made helicopters of various types (AH1, UH1, Bell 206, Bell 407, Bell 412.). As for PAF, F-16s aside, the following aircraft come to mind: F104 Starfighter, B-57 Canberra, F-86 Sabre, C-130 Hercules, T-37 Tweetybird, T-33 Shooting Star.

 

[Tipu7]

For what? To have a military!

In case you didn't notice, e.g. PN has been using quite a few ex-USN ships for quite some time e.g. Brooke and Garcia class frigates, Gearing class destroyers. You also operate P-3C Orions iirc. Army used to operate M48 tanks (300 in reserve). It operates some 1600 M113s plus 24 M901 ITV variant (Tow atgw) , 265 M109 155mm SPGHs, 60 M110 203mm SPGH, some 50 M7 105mm SPGH, plus some 713 towed howitzers of US make (M59, M101, M114, M115, M198) and some 166 US made helicopters of various types (AH1, UH1, Bell 206, Bell 407, Bell 412.). As for PAF, F-16s aside, the following aircraft come to mind: F104 Starfighter, B-57 Canberra, F-86 Sabre, C-130 Hercules, T-37 Tweetybird, T-33 Shooting Star.

Instead of being so materialistic and "lakeer k fakeer" follow some wise approach.
Same mentality in government and military of using "baisakhi" provides by uncle Sam have ruined this country......
Try to trust yourself instead of bagging from so called masters.......

Otherwise this "Do more do more" crap for the sake of dollars will continue........

For what? To have a military!

In case you didn't notice, e.g. PN has been using quite a few ex-USN ships for quite some time e.g. Brooke and Garcia class frigates, Gearing class destroyers. You also operate P-3C Orions iirc. Army used to operate M48 tanks (300 in reserve). It operates some 1600 M113s plus 24 M901 ITV variant (Tow atgw) , 265 M109 155mm SPGHs, 60 M110 203mm SPGH, some 50 M7 105mm SPGH, plus some 713 towed howitzers of US make (M59, M101, M114, M115, M198) and some 166 US made helicopters of various types (AH1, UH1, Bell 206, Bell 407, Bell 412.). As for PAF, F-16s aside, the following aircraft come to mind: F104 Starfighter, B-57 Canberra, F-86 Sabre, C-130 Hercules, T-37 Tweetybird, T-33 Shooting Star.

Also.......
Should I post some details of American weaponry operated by Our enemy ???
Our "enemy" neighbour is about to have most advance weapon stations from our "beloved boss"