Washington's Loss, Moscow's Gain? Russia 'Cozying Up' With Pakistan

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I know most of them were non-combatants. Just quoted some ballpark number for POWs. We never claimed to have freed them but we sure take credit for making sure no boundaries are redrawn outside of the battle theater meaning the west.

Well than US shouldn't lie to states it calls its allies.. ?

And please bro let's not dissect the diplomatic moves individually as black and white.

US have always opposed the spread of nuclear weapons outside of the big 5 and we had valid reasons for that. CIA had definite intelligence about the pak move towards nuclearisation and the pressler act was part of that.

Pak had to test nukes.. Coz of india .. Which ironically wasn't sanctioned by US after its tests.. But later.. Even the sanctions on India weren't tough or lasted as long as Pak.. The disposable ally.

During that time our military to military synergy was also at it's peak where we successfully slapped the soviet moves towards warm waters. How do you fit that in your narrative?

Disposable ally?... US used Pak against Soviets and left us with the mess to deal with.. And with sanctions.. Where does that fit bro?

As for the post 2001 threat, it was mostly posturing to make sure that things moved fast in diplomatic circles. No power could have made pakistan agree to set up bases if it didn't had the least bit interest in it. You have to accept it. E.g. You guys stopped our military caravans heading to afganistan and our forces too suffered setbacks that time. Did we bomb you guys that time ? No

Bush threatened Pak with war of we didn't side with US on Afghanistan invasion..

The supplies were blocked in late 2000s after your gunships bombed our border posts martrying over 22 soldiers (not the first time you did that)... How was that justifiable ?

Most importantly, If we wanted to just nuke around countries, we could have just nuked afganisthan straightaway. Why would we nuke pakistan so that we could send conventional forces to afganisthan ? Isn't that ludicrous ? Think about it !

Musharaf actually confesses that in his memoirs .. "In the line of fire"... The whole account.

 

[Peshwa]

Most importantly, If we wanted to just nuke around countries, we could have just nuked afganisthan straightaway. Why would we nuke pakistan so that we could send conventional forces to afganisthan ? Isn't that ludicrous ? Think about it !

I find it ridiculous that people on this forum believe that the US lost in Afghanistan...
The US could have basically carpet bombed Afghanistan with impunity (forget nukes) and not had to lay a boot on the ground...
Hell in the WOT, the whole Guantanamo Bay "excesses" was a US guilt trip by its own population...given a free hand, the US would have made an example of every org involved in 9/11
US usually fights with one arm tied behind (human rights) and people take that as a sign of weakness...BIG MISTAKE!!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I find it ridiculous that people on this forum believe that the US lost in Afghanistan...
The US could have basically carpet bombed Afghanistan with impunity (forget nukes) and not had to lay a boot on the ground...
Hell in the WOT, the whole Guantanamo Bay "excesses" was a US guilt trip by its own population...given a free hand, the US would have made an example of every org involved in 9/11
US usually fights with one arm tied behind (human rights) and people take that as a sign of weakness...BIG MISTAKE!!

Success in a war depends on targets achieved/accomplished ... Not carpet bombings..

Otherwise Soviet Union won Cold War,US also won Vietnam etc..

As for human right violations and UN .. lol when did US ever care about that.. Dear cheerleader.

 

[LeGenD]

I sleep like a baby...

As for serving in Afghanistan.. It's been what? 14 years or more? What have you achieved in Afghanistan..

Unfortunately, the Obama administration was not much committed to the Afghan front.

American general Stanley McChrystal requested the Obama administration to take Afghan front seriously and guess what happened? He was fired.

Under Stanley's leadership, US military forces achieved some breakthroughs on the Iraqi front and he also had a good grasp of situation in Afghanistan. Had he been allowed to carry out his duties, situation might have been different in Afghanistan at present.

But who can reason with an idiotic President.

 

[Peshwa]

Success in a war depends on targets achieved/accomplished ... Not carpet bombings..

Otherwise Soviet Union won Cold War,US also won Vietnam etc..

As for human right violations and UN .. lol when did US ever care about that.. Dear cheerleader.

I think you missed the woods for the trees here...
My point being that the US need not step foot in Afghanistan to "defeat" it...they do so, in order to win a war with minimal civilian casualties (hands tied)..
Of course objectives matter eg, bringing a stable govt. to Afg, usurp the taliban or kill OBL...and the US has completed those objective (stable govt. debatable)
My objection was to the word defeat being labelled against the US campaign in Afg.

And the US general population is probably the biggest critic of the US actions in the current state...
Everything from mistreatment of prisoners at Abu-Gharib to Guan-Bay was Americans introspecting their own actions...meaning giving a shit about human rights...
If the US didnt give a shit about human rights, do you think drone strikes would even be a debated topic?!!

PS: As a US citizen, I support US actions where I find they are correct and am quite aware of the capabilities of the US armed forces...cheerleading is for those countries who ride others coattails...India seems to have a few of those countries in its neighborhood.

 

[LeGenD]

Don't know about Kennedy but Nixon in 71 cheered for Pak (how 35k Pak were banging 75 mil Bangalis n indians... Infact he called Indians bastards,dogs etc).

Richard Nixon was genuinely friendly towards Pakistan.

He deserves some credit for allowing Pakistan to carry out its nuclear program unopposed.

 

[The Sandman]

Guys stop fighting what is past is past now we should move away from US and should concentrate on our relation with Russia/China that's it. US never was our friend and never will be.

 

[waz]

Really!??! The US of A promised "Kashmir" to Pakistan? How can we do that when during that time the Indians were backed up by the Soviets!??! and "Kashmir" is not "owned" by the US to be given to anybody else! What have you been smoking dude!??! @waz buddy, seriously, can you please do something about this clown?

It's opinion bro. People are pro USA/Pakistan ties (myself), anti and neutral.

On another note I think some Pakistanis are crazily optimistic about Russian ties. Do remember this is the same country which leased nuclear submarines to India, enabling them to work on their sea based deterrent, which is now at an advanced stage.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

eu

I think you missed the woods for the trees here...
My point being that the US need not step foot in Afghanistan to "defeat" it...they do so, in order to win a war with minimal civilian casualties (hands tied)..

Minimum civi casualities.. So was that objective achieved?

Of course objectives matter eg, bringing a stable govt. to Afg, usurp the taliban or kill OBL...and the US has completed those objective (stable govt. debatable)
My objection was to the word defeat being labelled against the US campaign in Afg.

Al Qaeda has no more launching pads.
ISIS has arrived and getting stronger in Afghanistan.
Taliban now effectively control most of Afghanistan... And USA is offering peace talks with them "terrorists".
Afghan govt doesn't even control Kabul and will fall within days after US withdrawal..

So which objectives are you bragging about!

And the US general population is probably the biggest critic of the US actions in the current state...
Everything from mistreatment of prisoners at Abu-Gharib to Guan-Bay was Americans introspecting their own actions...meaning giving a shit about human rights...
If the US didnt give a shit about human rights, do you think drone strikes would even be a debated topic?!!

Abu gharib,Gitmo,Baghram files were leased by whistle blowers ... Nobody except a few were "punished" I.e; discharged from us military... Multiple cases apart from that have been revealed.. Nobody punished .. Most cases haven't even been revealed and are buried... Hundreds of thousands of not millions of civilians were killed... Countries destroyed .. Which are now in civil war,chaos.. HR my azz.

PS: As a US citizen, I support US actions where I find they are correct and am quite aware of the capabilities of the US armed forces...cheerleading is for those countries who ride others coattails...India seems to have a few of those countries in its neighborhood.

Most of your kind cheers for USA and Israel like a hooker brags about her favourite client.. So spare us the fukin BULLSHYT.

 

[New Resolve]

We should definitely have good ties with both US and Russia, that way if one treats you like S, you can leverage the other one.

 

[haviZsultan]

@Gamer-X there you go. An American "Red Coat" has said it all now go back to school. Move along boy!

@Providence old buddy! Where in the world have you been? Haven't seen your posts in a while!



Who said you want to add millions to you population!? Read then think before posting!



Japan was hardly helpless. @Nihonjin1051 , can you please explain to our little friend here he seems to have a hard time believing what happened in the last century.



Agreed brother Very well said. Now prepare your a** for bashing from these guys!!!



@haviZsultan , as I have said to you numerous times my friend...

STOP LISTENING AND WATCHING "AMERICA IS EVIL" PROPAGANDA!! ITS SCREWING YOUR MIND!!! YOU STILL DID NOT LISTEN!!

I disagree. America is indeed evil. We cannot have a relationship unless Pakistan is the slave and America the master. This is what has constantly been happening. Pakistani memory is sharp. We remember the Presler Amendment when we helped you defeat the Soviets, we remember Salala and we remember Davis.

We wish America falls and crumbles. It is our genuine wish and we do not trust you nor do you trust us. Then what is the point of this alliance? Even while we were allies you were double dealing-selling weaponry to arch-enemy India and even signing a nuke deal the exact type of which you denied us. WE have a lot of reservations over how America has behaved over the decades.

 

[Penguin]

We should pull ourselves away from our horrible past and glorification of the anti soviet jihad in Afghanistan and work to become friends. US never was and never will be a real friend. IT did not come to our aid in 71, it refused to give us the f16's we already paid for and punished us for our efforts against the Soviets with the Pressler Amendment. They even killed our troops in the Salala incident and Davis killed at least 2 Pakistani civilians and escaped claiming diplomatic immunity. He had numbers of LEJ commanders in his phone.

I don't know why our spineless leadership never tried to develop ties with Russia at the expense of America. Russia is a far better ally than a traitorous nation like the USA. We need to pull away from this detrimental partnership as quickly as possible.

With respect to monetary issues....

Compare the value of this:

In the 1980s, Pakistan agreed to pay $658 million for 28 F-16 fighter jets from the United States; however the US congress froze the deal, citing objections to Pakistan's nuclear ambitions. Under the terms of the American cancellation, the US kept both the money and the planes, leading to angry claims of theft by Pakistanis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan–United_States_relations

With the value of this:

Pakistan receives foreign aid from several different countries and international organization. Since the start of the War in Afghanistan, the majority of the Aid comes from the United States.The Majority of US assistance to Pakistan is from the Coalition Support Fund which is reimbursement to Pakistan for expenses already incurred and compensation for facilities made available to the coalition forces such as the Shamsi Airfield and Dalbandin air bases by Pakistan as well as $4 billion has been billed to CSF Fund for the training and services provided by American Military and contractors to Pakistan Security Forces
...
Between 2002-2010, US Congress approved $18 billion[7] in military and economic aid from the United States. However the Pakistan Treasury only received $8.647 billion in direct financial payments.
...
Military and economic aid 2002 - 2011
Total 11.740 billion military and 6.08 billion economic
...
In total, the United States obligated nearly $75 billion to Pakistan between 1948 and 2014
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Pakistan

2002-2011: 1.174 billion military aid + 0.608 billion economic aid per year > total 1.78 billion USD annually for 10 years
1948-2014: About 1.3 billion USD annually over 66 years.

So long as you're addicted to the money ....

 

[Peshwa]

Minimum civi casualities.. So was that objective achieved?

Compared to the other means available to the US, yes..definitely.
US armed forces did their job in the best way possible in a hostile terrain...if you believe otherwise, I'm all ears!

Al Qaeda has no more launching pads.
ISIS has arrived and getting stronger in Afghanistan.
Taliban now effectively control most of Afghanistan... And USA is offering peace talks with them "terrorists".
Afghan govt doesn't even control Kabul and will fall within days after US withdrawal..

What are you blabbering on about?

The US toppled the Afghan Taliban in power and brought the civilian government to Kabul...Check
Killed OBL...Check
Funded and built up the ANA..which might not be the most capable force, but at least it gives the civilian govt. a chance..and recently with more experience are holding their own..Check!
Destroy the Al-Qaeda network (ongoing)...Check!

Last I checked, the US withdrawal was in 2014...your lot was going ape shit over the "fall of Kabul" post the withdrawal...within days!

Still waiting for Kabul to fall..and certainly not holding my breath.

Abu gharib,Gitmo,Baghram files were leased by whistle blowers ... Nobody except a few were "punished" I.e; discharged from us military... Multiple cases apart from that have been revealed.. Nobody punished .. Most cases haven't even been revealed and are buried... Hundreds of thousands of not millions of civilians were killed... Countries destroyed .. Which are now in civil war,chaos.. HR my azz.

What exactly are whistle blowers if not concerned citizens?

which other country or its people even introspect and hold their armed forces morally responsible? Except the US and some european nations none have even an inclination to create checks and balances..especially when the US can pretty much get away with anything they want..
Certainly not India...
and definitely not Pakistan...I mean in '71 your armed forces pretty much got a free hand from your population (not that you were democratic) but even today, those responsible for '71 have not been ostracized. You people would rather debate the accuracy of the number of Bangladeshi's massacred than bring any of those responsible for excesses to justice..
Why am I even debating this with you...im beating a dead horse!

Most of your kind cheers for USA and Israel like a hooker brags about her favourite client.. So spare us the fukin BULLSHYT.

Funny coming from a Pakistani...whose country is basically on all fours waiting and begging for the next big guy to throw them a bone..
When everyone from the middle east to the far east has been running a train on your country (for its existance), its hilarious to hear you mouthing off about hookers and what not...lol!

 

[Humble Analyst]

So the entire article is based on a opinion piece written by a Pakistani journalist in a Pakistani newspaper.
Very Funny.

It will be funny for you if it was written by Indian or if it was anti Pakistan?

 

[Raftaar]

Well, we need to realise that in , there is No best friend, dear brother, uncle etc. in Geopolitics.......

Its just a matter of advantage n disadvantege for a country.....This is where americans , russians, french n even israelis leave us behind.....
For them its pure business.......n speaking of Russians........they just need $ $ $ $ to fuel their ever growing ambitions.......
They are cozying up with Islamabad just for this n also arm twist indians.......

But Pakistan needs to realise that they ll not give a single bullet for soft loans or as friendly gesture as chinese do sometimes.........They ll charge for every nut n bolt.....n u need to give em money...shit loads of money to feed huge appetite..(remember admiral gorhkov drama when dey increased cost by 1 billion or so while refitting it, taking indians by surprise )

But now things ve evolved, Indians have moved on coz now they can certainly afford superior western weaponry unlike, earlier wen our economy was stagnant n we needed cheaper although inferior russian weapons and in huge quantity.

Just wanna wish good luck to pakistan with russians !!!!