Was there a Kshatriya Holocaust on the subcontinent ?

[Magi Brahmin]

One thing any serious student of ancient history will notice when he travels the length and breadth of India is the lack of true Kshatriyas descended from the imperial bloodlines mentioned in the Vedas, Epics and Puranas. On the other hand - Brahmins, Vaisyas and Shudras are found nearly everywhere, and well-represented in the historically high density population regions.

All Kshatriya castes in India can be classified into three categories:
1) Recent claimants to Kshatriya identity e.g. Ahirs, Kurmis, Reddys, Marathas through a process of mythologizing and sankritization
2) Descendents of the 4th -7th century Scythian hordes whom Brahmins converted en masse to the neoVedic religion e.g. Rajputs, Gujjars
3) Castes with somewhat more credible claims to true Kshatriya status e.g. Khatris (word itself a derivative of Kshatriya, located mainly in SaptaSaaraswat), Jats (widely considered Irano-Scythian in origin, but with a long history dating back to at least Harshavardhana, whom everybody considered to be a Kshatriya and and possibly even to the Sacrifice of Daksha Prajapati).

Even if the Khatris' and Jats' somewhat tenuous claims on being the descendants of the imperial Kshatriyas are upheld, that leaves huge stretches of Bharata Varsha bereft of Bharatas. Particularly galling is their absence in the Gangetic plains, which nurtured the later stage of Indo-Aryan civilization.

Now if we look to literary sources for clarification, we know from the ancient Battle of Ten Kings in RV and other sources that the Trtsus, Purus, Yadus and Matsyas got to stay in the SaptaSaaraswat out of the initial grouping of Aryan tribes while Pakthas (Pakhtoons), Parsus (Persians), Parthas (Parthians), Bhargavas (Phrygians), Drhyus, Anus, Bhalanas (Alans ?), Panis and Dahae (Scythians ?) were driven out. We also know that Trtsus and Purus merged to form the mighty Bharatas, who left their indelible mark on the culture and civilization of what passes today as Hindustan.

From Chanakya's Arthashastra and Megasthenes' Indica, we know that some vestiges of the regal Kshatriyas were present in 300-200 BC since one of Chandragupta Maurya's rivals was the ruler of Punjab, a descendant of Porus and presumably a Bharata by blood. Going back further, Buddha is supposed to have been a Kshatriya. But reading between the lines, one can see that even at that time, the population of Kshatriyas was very small compared to the other three castes, strengthening the argument for some type of holocaust at an early time.

There are at least two Kshatriya holocausts mentioned in the ancient texts:

1) Parashuram (Persian Rama, descended from the Phrygian emigre Jamadagni) carried out multiple exterminations, particularly of the Yadus since the Hehayas who killed his father belonged to this tribe. Many Kshatriya tribes are said to have left India during this period. Because of the outsized role of the Bhargavas in redacting these myths, scholars take the Bhargava annihilation of Kshatriyas with a grain of salt.

2) Kurukshetra: Internecine warfare between royal Kshatriyas resulted in complete destruction of several Kshatriya races. Only the Yadavas, who had diminshed status compared to other Kshatriyas (could not assume Kingship), survived the Mahabharata War. (Yadavas too are said to have perished at Dwaraka subsequently but there is no evidence for their destruction elsewhere in India). The epic itself puts the death toll at 4 million. If taken at face value, this would be one-fourth the horror of WWI and one-thirteenth that of WWII.

The key issue here (also a vexing one) is dating the Mahabharata War, assuming it happened and dating Parashuram, assuming he existed.

What has been left un-researched is the possible socioeconomic consequences of such a disastrous war in a pre-modern society. One could predict hundreds possibly even thousands of years of peace as the most aggressive members of society were no longer present but also stasis as leaders, men with initiative and risk takers disappeared from society .

The burden of supporting the lavish and wasteful lifestyle, and war-debts of the Kshatriyas no longer had to be borne by the working classes, resulting in their liberation from tyranny, oppression and exploitation (hence the elevation of Krishna Vasudeva who was the architect of the Mahabharata War to a God).

Parasitical priests (Brahmins) previously reliant on the largesse of Kings during ostentatious sacrifices, war rituals, funereal rites, etc. were forced to impose the burden of paying for their services on an unwilling population, eventually resulting in the birth of anti-Brahmin populist movements such as Buddhism and Jainism, which sought to use the principle of "Ahimsa" and vegetarianism to destroy the very root of Brahminical power namely the Yagna or animal sacrificing fire ritual (with mixed results).

@padamchen @Joe Shearer @niaz

 

[Indus Pakistan]

SaptaSaaraswat

What the hell is that? And notice this is Pakistani history so it should try to stay as much as possible within the Indus Region. If the subject is trans-continental then it belongs to South Asia section.

 

[Magi Brahmin]

What the hell is that? And notice this is Pakistani history so it should try to stay as much as possible within the Indus Region. If the subject is trans-continental then it belongs to South Asia section.

there were kshatriya tribes in pakistan and afghanistan as well.

and sapta saraswat means indus valley (+ old yamuna and sarasvati)

 

[Joe Shearer]

One thing any serious student of ancient history will notice when he travels the length and breadth of India is the lack of true Kshatriyas descended from the imperial bloodlines mentioned in the Vedas, Epics and Puranas. On the other hand - Brahmins, Vaisyas and Shudras are found nearly everywhere, and well-represented in the historically high density population regions.

All Kshatriya castes in India can be classified into three categories:
1) Recent claimants to Kshatriya identity e.g. Ahirs, Kurmis, Reddys, Marathas through a process of mythologizing and sankritization
2) Descendents of the 4th -7th century Scythian hordes whom Brahmins converted en masse to the neoVedic religion e.g. Rajputs, Gujjars
3) Castes with somewhat more credible claims to true Kshatriya status e.g. Khatris (word itself a derivative of Kshatriya, located mainly in SaptaSaaraswat), Jats (widely considered Irano-Scythian in origin, but with a long history dating back to at least Harshavardhana, whom everybody considered to be a Kshatriya and and possibly even to the Sacrifice of Daksha Prajapati).

Even if the Khatris' and Jats' somewhat tenuous claims on being the descendants of the imperial Kshatriyas are upheld, that leaves huge stretches of Bharata Varsha bereft of Bharatas. Particularly galling is their absence in the Gangetic plains, which nurtured the later stage of Indo-Aryan civilization.

Now if we look to literary sources for clarification, we know from the ancient Battle of Ten Kings in RV and other sources that the Trtsus, Purus, Yadus and Matsyas got to stay in the SaptaSaaraswat out of the initial grouping of Aryan tribes while Pakthas (Pakhtoons), Parsus (Persians), Parthas (Parthians), Bhargavas (Phrygians), Drhyus, Anus, Bhalanas (Alans ?), Panis and Dahae (Scythians ?) were driven out. We also know that Trtsus and Purus merged to form the mighty Bharatas, who left their indelible mark on the culture and civilization of what passes today as Hindustan.

From Chanakya's Arthashastra and Megasthenes' Indica, we know that some vestiges of the regal Kshatriyas were present in 300-200 BC since one of Chandragupta Maurya's rivals was the ruler of Punjab, a descendant of Porus and presumably a Bharata by blood. Going back further, Buddha is supposed to have been a Kshatriya. But reading between the lines, one can see that even at that time, the population of Kshatriyas was very small compared to the other three castes, strengthening the argument for some type of holocaust at an early time.

There are at least two Kshatriya holocausts mentioned in the ancient texts:

1) Parashuram (Persian Rama, descended from the Phrygian emigre Jamadagni) carried out multiple exterminations, particularly of the Yadus since the Hehayas who killed his father belonged to this tribe. Many Kshatriya tribes are said to have left India during this period. Because of the outsized role of the Bhargavas in redacting these myths, scholars take the Bhargava annihilation of Kshatriyas with a grain of salt.

2) Kurukshetra: Internecine warfare between royal Kshatriyas resulted in complete destruction of several Kshatriya races. Only the Yadavas, who had diminshed status compared to other Kshatriyas (could not assume Kingship), survived the Mahabharata War. (Yadavas too are said to have perished at Dwaraka subsequently but there is no evidence for their destruction elsewhere in India). The epic itself puts the death toll at 4 million. If taken at face value, this would be one-fourth the horror of WWI and one-thirteenth that of WWII.

The key issue here (also a vexing one) is dating the Mahabharata War, assuming it happened and dating Parashuram, assuming he existed.

What has been left un-researched is the possible socioeconomic consequences of such a disastrous war in a pre-modern society. One could predict hundreds possibly even thousands of years of peace as the most aggressive members of society were no longer present but also stasis as leaders, men with initiative and risk takers disappeared from society .

The burden of supporting the lavish and wasteful lifestyle, and war-debts of the Kshatriyas no longer had to be borne by the working classes, resulting in their liberation from tyranny, oppression and exploitation (hence the elevation of Krishna Vasudeva who was the architect of the Mahabharata War to a God).

Parasitical priests (Brahmins) previously reliant on the largesse of Kings during ostentatious sacrifices, war rituals, funereal rites, etc. were forced to impose the burden of paying for their services on an unwilling population, eventually resulting in the birth of anti-Brahmin populist movements such as Buddhism and Jainism, which sought to use the principle of "Ahimsa" and vegetarianism to destroy the very root of Brahminical power namely the Yagna or animal sacrificing fire ritual (with mixed results).

@padamchen @Joe Shearer @niaz

Such a pleasant surprise.

I am already committed to @T-123456 to do some reference work, but will get back to you as soon as I can.

 

[El Sidd]

What really wiped out the Harrappans?

Nobody knows the answer.

Only their Signs remain.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

sapta saraswat means indus valley

So freakin call it "Indus Valley" instead coming up with your own crap.

 

[Magi Brahmin]

So freakin call it "Indus Valley" instead coming up with your own crap.

thats what brahmins are called since ancient times.

do you have any prob elm with that ?

 

[padamchen]

One thing any serious student of ancient history will notice when he travels the length and breadth of India is the lack of true Kshatriyas descended from the imperial bloodlines mentioned in the Vedas, Epics and Puranas. On the other hand - Brahmins, Vaisyas and Shudras are found nearly everywhere, and well-represented in the historically high density population regions.

All Kshatriya castes in India can be classified into three categories:
1) Recent claimants to Kshatriya identity e.g. Ahirs, Kurmis, Reddys, Marathas through a process of mythologizing and sankritization
2) Descendents of the 4th -7th century Scythian hordes whom Brahmins converted en masse to the neoVedic religion e.g. Rajputs, Gujjars
3) Castes with somewhat more credible claims to true Kshatriya status e.g. Khatris (word itself a derivative of Kshatriya, located mainly in SaptaSaaraswat), Jats (widely considered Irano-Scythian in origin, but with a long history dating back to at least Harshavardhana, whom everybody considered to be a Kshatriya and and possibly even to the Sacrifice of Daksha Prajapati).

Even if the Khatris' and Jats' somewhat tenuous claims on being the descendants of the imperial Kshatriyas are upheld, that leaves huge stretches of Bharata Varsha bereft of Bharatas. Particularly galling is their absence in the Gangetic plains, which nurtured the later stage of Indo-Aryan civilization.

Now if we look to literary sources for clarification, we know from the ancient Battle of Ten Kings in RV and other sources that the Trtsus, Purus, Yadus and Matsyas got to stay in the SaptaSaaraswat out of the initial grouping of Aryan tribes while Pakthas (Pakhtoons), Parsus (Persians), Parthas (Parthians), Bhargavas (Phrygians), Drhyus, Anus, Bhalanas (Alans ?), Panis and Dahae (Scythians ?) were driven out. We also know that Trtsus and Purus merged to form the mighty Bharatas, who left their indelible mark on the culture and civilization of what passes today as Hindustan.

From Chanakya's Arthashastra and Megasthenes' Indica, we know that some vestiges of the regal Kshatriyas were present in 300-200 BC since one of Chandragupta Maurya's rivals was the ruler of Punjab, a descendant of Porus and presumably a Bharata by blood. Going back further, Buddha is supposed to have been a Kshatriya. But reading between the lines, one can see that even at that time, the population of Kshatriyas was very small compared to the other three castes, strengthening the argument for some type of holocaust at an early time.

There are at least two Kshatriya holocausts mentioned in the ancient texts:

1) Parashuram (Persian Rama, descended from the Phrygian emigre Jamadagni) carried out multiple exterminations, particularly of the Yadus since the Hehayas who killed his father belonged to this tribe. Many Kshatriya tribes are said to have left India during this period. Because of the outsized role of the Bhargavas in redacting these myths, scholars take the Bhargava annihilation of Kshatriyas with a grain of salt.

2) Kurukshetra: Internecine warfare between royal Kshatriyas resulted in complete destruction of several Kshatriya races. Only the Yadavas, who had diminshed status compared to other Kshatriyas (could not assume Kingship), survived the Mahabharata War. (Yadavas too are said to have perished at Dwaraka subsequently but there is no evidence for their destruction elsewhere in India). The epic itself puts the death toll at 4 million. If taken at face value, this would be one-fourth the horror of WWI and one-thirteenth that of WWII.

The key issue here (also a vexing one) is dating the Mahabharata War, assuming it happened and dating Parashuram, assuming he existed.

What has been left un-researched is the possible socioeconomic consequences of such a disastrous war in a pre-modern society. One could predict hundreds possibly even thousands of years of peace as the most aggressive members of society were no longer present but also stasis as leaders, men with initiative and risk takers disappeared from society .

The burden of supporting the lavish and wasteful lifestyle, and war-debts of the Kshatriyas no longer had to be borne by the working classes, resulting in their liberation from tyranny, oppression and exploitation (hence the elevation of Krishna Vasudeva who was the architect of the Mahabharata War to a God).

Parasitical priests (Brahmins) previously reliant on the largesse of Kings during ostentatious sacrifices, war rituals, funereal rites, etc. were forced to impose the burden of paying for their services on an unwilling population, eventually resulting in the birth of anti-Brahmin populist movements such as Buddhism and Jainism, which sought to use the principle of "Ahimsa" and vegetarianism to destroy the very root of Brahminical power namely the Yagna or animal sacrificing fire ritual (with mixed results).

@padamchen @Joe Shearer @niaz

Nice post.

I don't think there was a Holocaust per se.

I think the Kshatriya outlived their usefulness to the Brahmin clergy and were eventually marginalized and ostracized by caste politics.

Eventually dying out as a caste till the Brahmins needed them again with the advent and surge of Buddhism. And the birth of neo Agni Kula vansh.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

What really wiped out the Harrappans?

Nobody knows the answer.

Only their Signs remain.

This is not about the Harappans. What this chap is referring to may have been between 1300 BC to 1000 BC or even later, perhaps (my personal wild speculation) even as late as 800 BC. The Indus Valley Civilisation was closed down by the drying up of several critical waterways by 1300 BC.

PS: And you are right, nobody knows what really wiped out the Harappans; the water crisis is one of the most popular options.

So freakin call it "Indus Valley" instead coming up with your own crap.

There was no Indus Valley at that time; the name Indus came into common parlance around the time of the Achaemenids, around 600 BC or so. These events were older.

That is, if they existed at all. We only have literary evidence and circumstantial evidence. The existence of these events solely in literature puts these into proto-history, not history proper.

 

[El Sidd]

This is not about the Harappans. What this chap is referring to may have been between 1300 BC to 1000 BC or even later, perhaps (my personal wild speculation) even as late as 800 BC. The Indus Valley Civilisation was closed down by the drying up of several critical waterways by 1300 BC.

PS: And you are right, nobody knows what really wiped out the Harappans; the water crisis is one of the most popular options.

Water crisis would not happen over night. The way it looks abandoned or deserted points towards either an exodus or disease.

800BC. Hmm that is something only the surviving texts from that period can help identify. Do the texts talk about war or famine or some sort of revolution?

 

[Taimoor Khan]

This is not about the Harappans. What this chap is referring to may have been between 1300 BC to 1000 BC or even later, perhaps (my personal wild speculation) even as late as 800 BC. The Indus Valley Civilisation was closed down by the drying up of several critical waterways by 1300 BC.

PS: And you are right, nobody knows what really wiped out the Harappans; the water crisis is one of the most popular options.

Its called floods. Floods of biblical proportions, literally. We call it, the tsunami of Nuh/Noah. You refer to him as Manu.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Water crisis would not happen over night. The way it looks abandoned or deserted points towards either an exodus or disease.

800BC. Hmm that is something only the surviving texts from that period can help identify. Do the texts talk about war or famine or some sort of revolution?

Again, you are right. The speculation about the water crisis in the Indus Valley Civilisation is based on the gradual deterioration of civic planning; towards the later stages, dwelling places were built right in the middle of a thoroughfare.

All these three - water problems, exodus due to unknown reasons (probably a hostility in the political environment: the Indo-Aryans may not have been around so early) or disease - are possibilities, and have been discussed, inconclusively, by scholars.

What the post mentions are the very tenuous links mentioned in the Rg Veda, and the (later than the Vedas) Puranas, with some sideways allusions to Buddhist scripture from a later date still, from 600 BC onwards. These are strictly not historical; it is deplorable that the bhakts keep talking about 'events' of the time as history. It is no such thing. But in answer to your question, yes, there was the War of Ten Kings, with some extremely intriguing mentions of tribes in it, which is narrated in the Vedas, and which this post quotes. Also, the Mahabharata points to some kind of upheaval concealed within the huge volume of myth-making that constitutes the epic. The Mahabharata must have been developed long after the events that might form the core of this post, but the Rg Veda and the Puranas may have been only slightly later.

Fascinating as a speculation.

You might like to glance at Pargiter; he did the best work on Puranic king-lists and linking them to Alexander's time and beyond. Ironically, the bhakts depend extensively on the work of Europeans, which is what makes them so ridiculous.

Its called floods. Floods of biblical proportions, literally. We call it, the tsunami of Nuh/Noah. You refer to him as Manu.

Probably not in this region. There are no signs of flooding in the IVC per se. Most of those accounts are from Mesopotamia.

PS: Two afterthoughts: there is geological evidence of floods of this sweeping nature in Mesopotamia. Manu was a descriptive name given to several possible living beings.

One of the confusing and exasperating things about trying to follow a thread through the literature, the only option that we have for the period 1500 BC (a speculative date itself) through to the life and times of the Buddha and Mahavira is the existence of names referring to whole families: I hesitate to mention names without refreshing my memory, because the bhakt is a dangerous animal once aroused.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

thats what brahmins are called since ancient times.

I don't care about what you call Brahmins but if you mention Indus region by any other name can you translate it for us. This is a Pakistani forum. I don't expect Chinese here to use Shīquán Hé or Yìndù for Indus in any discussion here.

 

[El Sidd]

Again, you are right. The speculation about the water crisis in the Indus Valley Civilisation is based on the gradual deterioration of civic planning; towards the later stages, dwelling places were built right in the middle of a thoroughfare.

All these three - water problems, exodus due to unknown reasons (probably a hostility in the political environment: the Indo-Aryans may not have been around so early) or disease - are possibilities, and have been discussed, inconclusively, by scholars.

What the post mentions are the very tenuous links mentioned in the Rg Veda, and the (later than the Vedas) Puranas, with some sideways allusions to Buddhist scripture from a later date still, from 600 BC onwards. These are strictly not historical; it is deplorable that the bhakts keep talking about 'events' of the time as history. It is no such thing. But in answer to your question, yes, there was the War of Ten Kings, with some extremely intriguing mentions of tribes in it, which is narrated in the Vedas, and which this post quotes. Also, the Mahabharata points to some kind of upheaval concealed within the huge volume of myth-making that constitutes the epic. The Mahabharata must have been developed long after the events that might form the core of this post, but the Rg Veda and the Puranas may have been only slightly later.

Fascinating as a speculation.

You might like to glance at Pargiter; he did the best work on Puranic king-lists and linking them to Alexander's time and beyond. Ironically, the bhakts depend extensively on the work of Europeans, which is what makes them so ridiculous.

The biggest problem in solving these puzzles remain in our interpretation of time as perceived by us.
As far as the IVC collapse is concerned once again it is just our own conjecture. Specially the concept of the twin river running parallel to Indus in modern day India. Now that river i think it is called saraswati or something went dry due to seismic activity up north which disrupted the flow of the river.

But the beauty of it all is, no one really knows what happened to the people. No one can tell their story.

Now this debate is different as to what the Puranas and Mahabharata say. These are ancient books recollecting stories of the past with no definite time period given. Sure they may point out to tribal warfare and disharmony among the folks before the great war or calamity.

Just a question. What do you think the polar shift 12 thousand years ago plays into this? The polar shift and the last ice age did bring huge water in land and shaped the new climate.

 

[Magi Brahmin]

guys, just... stay on the topic please !