Was Jinnah secular?

[T-Faz]

T-Faz

Some of our Pakistani posters are having a bit of a problem understand "secular" which since the days of the Jihad against the Soviets, has come to be defined as "ladeeniyat" or Irreligiousness/Godlessness, a very Saudi (read Wahabi) worldview - in fact you will notice that Saudi Arabia actually sent a cleric/scholar to craft the ideology and these laws imposed by Zia -- Where as "Secular" was generally understood as "Ilmaniyat". that is to say a view informed by knowledge, not just one particular kind of knowledge.

I think we should understand that if one has been indoctrinated for over 30 years, they tend to imagine that their understanding is the totality - if we can get more and more people to properly understand that "secular" does not mean as tha Saudi would have it mean, then I think we can get our own Pakistanis back to their own heritage and the historic development of Islamic thought, which obviously is very different from the radicalism of an ideology that is ascendant only through force of arms.

Thats very correct, Sir.

The ideological change that was implemented has had a long lasting effect on the nation and has been the source of many ills in our society.

The revival of our own identity is a must in order to develop and make this nation a progressive one.

At least we have people who are admitting to what occurred during the period of 'change' and what Pakistan was meant to be.

 

[muse]

T-Faz

The ideological change that was implemented has had a long lasting effect on the nation and has been the source of many ills in our society

Indeed, but it is also gratifying to note the defensiveness of those who seek to further the Ladeeniyat definition - while it was a utility during the anti-soviet Jihad, it was nevertheless, a utility -- a case had to be made making a connection between the communists of Afghanistan and the soviet project and simultaneously a case to be made linking the "ideologically pure" with where the money was coming from --- as Afghan refugees took jobs in Pakistan that Pakistanis would not do, Pakistanis took jobs in the Arabian peninsula and gulf, doing jobs no one else would.

Of course no one has ever accused the Pakistani authorities of being conscientious, and of course they never bothered to review the curriculum they started during the Islamization project.

At least we have people who are admitting to what occurred during the period of 'change' and what Pakistan was meant to be.

First the vision, then the planning to realize the vision, bringing the idea to tipping point --- though I'll tell you that I welcome what I think you'll agree are some very tough times ahead - because it's necessary, I understand that now, in a way I didn't before -

 

[BATMAN]

^^ If you both agree to each other than shall we consider case closed!!! or would you like to continue more with your mutual education. lol

 

[T-Faz]

Indeed, but it is also gratifying to note the defensiveness of those who seek to further the Ladeeniyat definition - while it was a utility during the anti-soviet Jihad, it was nevertheless, a utility -- a case had to be made making a connection between the communists of Afghanistan and the soviet project and simultaneously a case to be made linking the "ideologically pure" with where the money was coming from --- as Afghan refugees took jobs in Pakistan that Pakistanis would not do, Pakistanis took jobs in the Arabian peninsula and gulf, doing jobs no one else would.

Of course no one has ever accused the Pakistani authorities of being conscientious, and of course they never bothered to review the curriculum they started during the Islamization project.[/QUOTE]

The entire charade had a lot of planning behind it and with the support of all those whose support was required, the project went as smoothly as planned.

Thus it continued even after the period that it was specifically made for ended, the anti-Soviet Jihad I mean. Like you said, the use of Ladeeniyat definition extended onto periods where there was not a requirements for it to be propagated but the deep seated ideological shift become a part of national thinking.

First the vision, then the planning to realize the vision, bringing the idea to tipping point --- though I'll tell you that I welcome what I think you'll agree are some very tough times ahead - because it's necessary, I understand that now, in a way I didn't before -

Of course, it will be a long battle and one where a lot will be lost but the end result should speak for it self.

 

[muse]

the use of Ladeeniyat definition extended onto periods where there was not a requirements for it to be propagated but the deep seated ideological shift become a part of national thinking.

The defensive opposition to "Ilmaniyat" is or rather should be, gratifying, because it signals the appreciation that the farce of ladeeniyat cannot continue and that the arabization of Pakistan is a doomed project, we are Muslims, not Arabs and no force of arms or terror can make us forget that.

The "long struggle", well, it's possible that somewhere along the line we will get leadership, liberal or authoritarian that will understand the idea of Leading -- I think you will agree that Pakistanis have a great depth and love to be challenged, but first you must tell them the truth, then they are up for any challenge at all , you never know, we may get lucky - I hope so.

 

[rubyjackass]

You fail to understand the point of the argument, its not about a single person's perceived beliefs or proven ideas but the path this nation should be on.

If this nation was not meant to be secular then the Parsis, Christians, Hindu's, Ahmadi's, Aga Khani's and other such groups would have moved to India.

It was made clear the religion would be a personal matter in this nation-state and to achieve this we have to use Jinnah's ideals as a stepping stone to achieve the state we thing we ought to have.

I understand what the point is. All I am saying is there is ambiguity about Jinnah's position. Clearly some of his speeches are aimed at political expediency. But we have no record saying what he genuinely is. Though I believe Jinnah is secular, what is the point discussing it now? I cannot convince the guy who believes Jinnah is an Islamist or even an advocate of Sharia. There are varied perceptions of Jinnah. I dont blame him for it. He played politics to a certain extent like any other politician. Although he played with the central idea of Pakistan, may be he thought, for his later generations and politicians the path would be naturally clear.

Now the situation is not relevant to what Jinnah thought. Minorities 'thought' he was secular and stayed back. Some muslims 'thought' he was an Islamist and came to Pakistan. But between you and the mullah there is no difference here, you both wish Jinnah was what you wanted him to be. May be he was, but when you have no way of convincing the other guy, you both have the same standing in your national debate. There is no point arguing now about Jinnah's vision. There are far too many people with their own version of Jinnah's vision. Now it's better you decide what you want to be. You reason out with people that it is rational to be secular. Or you could modernise Islam, like replace the medieval practises and laws in it with modern law.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Old Topic. Was Jinnah secular ? Was Jinnah religious ? Etc etc etc. Now leave these topics yaar. 70 years have passed and our minds are still there.
Well! My opinion is that Jinnah wants liberal Islam. He was not extremist but a true Muslim.

What is liberal Islam? You do know in Islam the sovereignty of the state is with allah not with a system that was designed by Jew Freemasons like Karl Marx which muslims are fallowing like bunch of idiots.
How is Jinnah a true Muslim when he was born as a Ismaili grew up in British culture where he divorced from Islam and for unknown reason later converted to Shia. His Political career was more influenced by freemasons then Islam (Using Islam in speeches does not count as Islamic work) so i have no idea why Pakistanis are in denial that Jinnah was a true Muslim.
In fact British empire succeed in establishing their divide and rule doctrine in the Muslim world thats why today Muslims are in such a mess.

 

[muse]

Or you could modernise Islam, like replace the medieval practices and laws in it with modern law.

How can Islam be Retrograde or Modern, how can it be humane or inhumane ?? Depends on the lens through which you perceive or understand it --- Yes use the analogy of glasses, everyone's eye sight changes as we age, right??? And the lens we use to correct our vision, also change, right??

It is exactly the same thing we are discussing, how the redefining of a single simple word, had such huge implications -- Education is a lens, a prejudice, a particular training, and it is based on knowledge - as knowledge evolves, the way in which we understand evolves, after all, a Ph.D understands a particular subject in a different way than does one with a matriculation, isn't this so?? We must be patient with ourselves.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Well, even I dont know why it is important for Jinnah to be secular, the question should be whether pakistan is secular.
Also, you dont have to be religious, have a beard and all to be communal. It is possible for a religious person to be secular(secular does not mean atheist, it means you respect people of other religion, and consider them equal) and a non religious person to be communal(if you have strong sense of belonging to a community, and you think your community is better/different from others).

Jinnah may not be religious, but it will be difficult to say he is secular, in light of what he did and the way he did it. However, as most people point out, he wanted pakistan to be a secular modern democracy.

Jinnah = a secular leader. For god sake he even joined fabian society and people still think he was a Islamic leader.

And Btw Islam gave all the above rights 1400 years ago when jews pagans christians and Muslims lived in a ummah led by Muslims.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Hello people he gave us a place to live we should thank him instead of judging him and passing remarks just say thank you Mohammad Ali Jinnah for what you did for us and thats it!!!!

It was British doctrine to divide and rule the muslim world. thats why you have more then 40 muslim states which itself are divided from within.
Btw Jinnah lived most of his life in Britian and if he really kick britis out of this land then why would Britian be pampering him at home?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

First of all, i would request my Pakistani friends to not refer to the father of our nation as "Jinnah", for us he is "Quaid-e-Azam".

The great leader for me was only Prophet Mohammed PBUH not Jinnah.

 

[muse]

T-Faz

Notice the aggressively exclusive ,Arabized world view - the use of straw man arguments - essentially confirmation that the defensive responses mean they realize their project is not viable, people can see through the labored effort to malign Jinnah for being an idealist, for being inspired by the idea of more just , more egalitarian society -- super interesting, very hopeful.

 

[desioptimist]

Jinnah = a secular leader. For god sake he even joined fabian society and people still think he was a Islamic leader.

And Btw Islam gave all the above rights 1400 years ago when jews pagans christians and Muslims lived in a ummah led by Muslims.

Well then, muslims should not have a problem with everybody living together, led by non-muslims.

And we are arguing about Jinnah, not islam here.

 

[T-Faz]

I understand what the point is. All I am saying is there is ambiguity about Jinnah's position. Clearly some of his speeches are aimed at political expediency. But we have no record saying what he genuinely is. Though I believe Jinnah is secular, what is the point discussing it now? I cannot convince the guy who believes Jinnah is an Islamist or even an advocate of Sharia. There are varied perceptions of Jinnah. I dont blame him for it. He played politics to a certain extent like any other politician. Although he played with the central idea of Pakistan, may be he thought, for his later generations and politicians the path would be naturally clear.

Then why are you discussing this here?

Seems like you are going against your own assertion.

Now the situation is not relevant to what Jinnah thought. Minorities 'thought' he was secular and stayed back. Some muslims 'thought' he was an Islamist and came to Pakistan. But between you and the mullah there is no difference here, you both wish Jinnah was what you wanted him to be. May be he was, but when you have no way of convincing the other guy, you both have the same standing in your national debate. There is no point arguing now about Jinnah's vision. There are far too many people with their own version of Jinnah's vision. Now it's better you decide what you want to be. You reason out with people that it is rational to be secular. Or you could modernise Islam, like replace the medieval practises and laws in it with modern law.

Its not about thought, its about what was conveyed to them personally in meetings and conventions, Islamists on the other hand like Maududi, Mahmood, Madani etc opposed and cursed him. Its only later that they started to exploit the situation when the felt that they could use religion to alter public perception about Pakistan itself.

We are not trying to convince others but merely tying to point out facts that would allow us all to follow one path for prosperity and betterment.

Islam has already been modernized, its the variation that we currently have in Pakistan which is impractical and got nothing to do with what Islam actually teaches.

 

[T-Faz]

T-Faz

Notice the aggressively exclusive ,Arabized world view - the use of straw man arguments - essentially confirmation that the defensive responses mean they realize their project is not viable, people can see through the labored effort to malign Jinnah for being an idealist, for being inspired by the idea of more just , more egalitarian society -- super interesting, very hopeful.

This is their consistent position whereby the argument has to be deflected onto other matters in which a lot of their theories are divulged for some grand future scheme that will follow the 'real' purpose of this nation.