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Was Jinnah secular or not?

Why did he defend Tilak? for money?

Being human. Being Muslim. Being decent enough to lend a hand in a legit struggle.

Don't have to swear an oath to secularism for that.

Supreme Court of Islamic Republic of Pakistan ordered restoration of temples, what does that make them? Martians?

Jinnah never wanted Partition. It was just a proposal to extract concessions for Muslims.

That is a tall claim for someone recognized internationally as a Statesman and Founder of the 6th largest nation of the world.
 
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Was Jinnah secular?
By Khaled Ahmed
Published: March 20, 2011
TWEET EMAIL
The writer is a director at the South Asia Free Media Association, Lahore khaled.ahmed@tribune.com.pk

On the night of March 7, 2011, Justice (retd) Javid Iqbal was interviewed on a TV channel on the nature of the Pakistani state. He held that Pakistan, as envisaged by Jinnah, was to be a secular state. This is the package he has always accepted as the ‘modern Islamic state’ imagined by his father, Allama Iqbal, too.

Javid Iqbal was clear that what Pakistan is now was not what Jinnah had thought of. The word ‘secular’ put off the TV host who insisted that ‘secular’ was the opposite of ‘Islamic’. He even once erroneously equated ‘secular’ with ‘communist’, not knowing that an atheist state cannot be secular. Javid Iqbal said hard Islam was not the project of Jinnah: The Islam of hudood and blasphemy laws was imposed by General Zia.

He even named Dualibi as the Arab scholar who was sent to Pakistan by Saudi Arabia to impose the laws that Pakistan was averse to enforcing. The fact is that the 1980 Zakat & Ushr Ordinance, imposed by General Zia on Sunnis and Shias, was framed by Dualibi in Arabic. Javid Iqbal clearly said that moderate and liberal elements were silent because they feared harm at the hands of extremist forces. He equally despaired of politicians.
He said that only the ibadat (prayer rituals) were unchangeable in Islam; muamilat (affairs) had to change in tune with the times. One reason Islamisation did not improve the Pakistani character was the state’s retrogression towards laws that were no longer compatible with modern times. He referred to an effort made by late MNA MP Bhandara who, as a minority representative, wanted the August 11, 1947 speech of Jinnah incorporated into the Constitution.
The August 11 speech is clearly a secular manifesto issuing out of the mouth of the Father of the Nation. The secularists lean on it; the others think Jinnah still meant a state based on Sharia. One historian even went as far as to say that Jinnah had become ‘infirm of mind’ when he spoke on August 11.
Saleena Karim in her book Secular Jinnah & Pakistan: What the Nation doesn’t Know (Paramount 2010) has probably tackled the case most thoroughly in defence of those who reject the secular label. She has dug up an interview that Jinnah gave to a Reuters’ journalist on May 21, 1947, which was used by chief justice Muhammad Munir in his book From Jinnah to Zia (1979) to infer that Jinnah had wanted a secular state.
She has dug up what Jinnah had really said: ‘But the Government of Pakistan can only be a popular representative and democratic form of government. Its parliament, and cabinet responsible to the parliament, will both be finally responsible to the electorate and the people in general without any distinction of caste, creed or sect, which will be the final deciding factor with regard to the policy and programme of the government that may be adopted from time to time’ (p.31).
She writes: “Instead of calling the proposed Pakistan a ‘modem democratic state’”, Jinnah says only that it will have a “democratic form” of government. He was actually averse to imitating “modern” (read: contemporary) democracy as a political system, considering it a failure’. She thinks it contains a presumed reference to a non-secular state. One could also conclude from this that people may democratically decide to have a non-secular Islamic state with a Sharia.
It is up to the reader to decide whether the argument for a non-secular state is convincing or not, on the basis of what Jinnah is supposed to have said.


Published in The Express Tribune, March 20th, 2011.
 
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Articles by xyz journalists means nothing -- Bring quotes/ speeches if Jinnah.
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"Islam and its idealism have taught democracy. Islam has taught equality, justice and fairplay to everybody."

"The Prophet (PBUH) was a great teacher. He was a great law-giver. He was a great statesman and he was a great Sovereign who ruled. No doubt, there are people who do not quite appreciate when we talk of Islam. . . Islam is not only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is a code for every Muslim which regulates his life and his conduct in even politics and economics and the like."

"Why this feeling of nervousness that the future constitution of Pakistan is going to be in conflict with Shariat Laws? . . . Islamic principles today are as applicable to life as they were 1,300 years ago. "

Source:

  • Jinnah: Speeches and Statements 1947-1948, Introduction by S.M. Burke, Oxford University Press, Karachi, 2000, pp. 97-98
 
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Was Jinnah secular?
By Khaled Ahmed
Published: March 20, 2011
TWEET EMAIL
The writer is a director at the South Asia Free Media Association, Lahore khaled.ahmed@tribune.com.pk

On the night of March 7, 2011, Justice (retd) Javid Iqbal was interviewed on a TV channel on the nature of the Pakistani state. He held that Pakistan, as envisaged by Jinnah, was to be a secular state. This is the package he has always accepted as the ‘modern Islamic state’ imagined by his father, Allama Iqbal, too.

Javid Iqbal was clear that what Pakistan is now was not what Jinnah had thought of. The word ‘secular’ put off the TV host who insisted that ‘secular’ was the opposite of ‘Islamic’. He even once erroneously equated ‘secular’ with ‘communist’, not knowing that an atheist state cannot be secular. Javid Iqbal said hard Islam was not the project of Jinnah: The Islam of hudood and blasphemy laws was imposed by General Zia.

He even named Dualibi as the Arab scholar who was sent to Pakistan by Saudi Arabia to impose the laws that Pakistan was averse to enforcing. The fact is that the 1980 Zakat & Ushr Ordinance, imposed by General Zia on Sunnis and Shias, was framed by Dualibi in Arabic. Javid Iqbal clearly said that moderate and liberal elements were silent because they feared harm at the hands of extremist forces. He equally despaired of politicians.
He said that only the ibadat (prayer rituals) were unchangeable in Islam; muamilat (affairs) had to change in tune with the times. One reason Islamisation did not improve the Pakistani character was the state’s retrogression towards laws that were no longer compatible with modern times. He referred to an effort made by late MNA MP Bhandara who, as a minority representative, wanted the August 11, 1947 speech of Jinnah incorporated into the Constitution.
The August 11 speech is clearly a secular manifesto issuing out of the mouth of the Father of the Nation. The secularists lean on it; the others think Jinnah still meant a state based on Sharia. One historian even went as far as to say that Jinnah had become ‘infirm of mind’ when he spoke on August 11.
Saleena Karim in her book Secular Jinnah & Pakistan: What the Nation doesn’t Know (Paramount 2010) has probably tackled the case most thoroughly in defence of those who reject the secular label. She has dug up an interview that Jinnah gave to a Reuters’ journalist on May 21, 1947, which was used by chief justice Muhammad Munir in his book From Jinnah to Zia (1979) to infer that Jinnah had wanted a secular state.
She has dug up what Jinnah had really said: ‘But the Government of Pakistan can only be a popular representative and democratic form of government. Its parliament, and cabinet responsible to the parliament, will both be finally responsible to the electorate and the people in general without any distinction of caste, creed or sect, which will be the final deciding factor with regard to the policy and programme of the government that may be adopted from time to time’ (p.31).
She writes: “Instead of calling the proposed Pakistan a ‘modem democratic state’”, Jinnah says only that it will have a “democratic form” of government. He was actually averse to imitating “modern” (read: contemporary) democracy as a political system, considering it a failure’. She thinks it contains a presumed reference to a non-secular state. One could also conclude from this that people may democratically decide to have a non-secular Islamic state with a Sharia.
It is up to the reader to decide whether the argument for a non-secular state is convincing or not, on the basis of what Jinnah is supposed to have said.


Published in The Express Tribune, March 20th, 2011.

So you did a google search and posted the first Pakistani source article you could find.

Its like google minister fuwwad.
 
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Was Jinnah secular or not?

I say he was secular.

@El Sidd @Rusty @T-123456 @shah_123

All so called "founding fathers" of nations that were born out of British empire were actually British empire stooges.
The reason why every nation almost worship their founding father is because they only look at the result. But they never question how that result was achieved. Without British empire approval these founding fathers would have been slaughtered the same way in 1800s who questioned the empire.
British Empire is perhaps the most successful in terms that every empire in the past simply left or were forced out but this cleaver one made a tactical retreat by implementing their own system that would interest in the making of NEW WORLD ORDER.

This has been discussed millions of times and there's no point in going in circle again and again -- @MayaBazar if you could post Jinnah's statement where he said that Pakistan is or would be secular state.

"Pakistan is the premier Islamic State and the fifth largest in the world. . . The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of men, justice and fairplay to everybody.’’ ( Radio Broadcast to the People of the United States of America, February 1948)

Now imagine I open a university that is a breeding ground for liberals but in one of my speech I merely mention "we are a Islamic university" does that make me or my university Islamic? If YES then how so since I all my work building this uni went into making it into a liberal?
Speech is different from actions!
 
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Honestly, it really doesn't matter of Jinnah was secular, what matters is where do we go from here.
We tried both secular and "Islamic conservatism"

One gave us prosperity and the other gave us decades of terrorism and nearly 100,000 dead.
 
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All so called "founding fathers" of nations that were born out of British empire were actually British empire stooges.
The reason why every nation almost worship their founding father is because they only look at the result. But they never question how that result was achieved. Without British empire approval these founding fathers would have been slaughtered the same way in 1800s who questioned the empire.
British Empire is perhaps the most successful in terms that every empire in the past simply left or were forced out but this cleaver one made a tactical retreat by implementing their own system that would interest in the making of NEW WORLD ORDER.



Now imagine I open a university that is a breeding ground for liberals but in one of my speech I merely mention "we are a Islamic university" does that make me or my university Islamic? If YES then how so since I all my work building this uni went into making it into a liberal?
Speech is different from actions!
I understand that there's a tiny section in our society (secular/liberal) who try to tell us that Jinnah fooled the people by his speeches -- this is the lowest these people can go.
 
. . .
Honestly, it really doesn't matter of Jinnah was secular, what matters is where do we go from here.
We tried both secular and "Islamic conservatism"

One gave us prosperity and the other gave us decades of terrorism and nearly 100,000 dead.

We neither had both we had leaders who espoused ideas but never put any in practice as usual hence the confusion and identity crisis we suffer today

masallah! and whose version will it be? if we gather 10 muslims I bet 50% of the time their will be disagreement on interpenetration.

Or can he tell for the fact how many 50 or so Islamic nations exist and variety of cultures and interpretations as usual doubt he would acknowledge that
 
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in his real life he was secular , but he was a clever politican used religion for his political ambition . .

WAS JINNAH SECULAR? - Jinnah manipulated religious sentiments for a secular state
Read more below

By Rudrangshu Mukherjee
  • Published 8.06.05
8top2.jpg

The year was 1923, the month was November. Mohammad Ali Jinnah was a candidate in Bombay for membership to the Legislative Assembly. One afternoon, during the election campaign, as Jinnah and M.C. Chagla were going out for lunch, Mrs Ruttie Jinnah drove up to the Town Hall in Jinnah?s limousine and came up the steps with a tiffin basket in her hand. She said, ?J [that is how she called him] guess what I have brought you for lunch? I have brought you some lovely ham sandwiches.?? Utterly startled, Jinnah exclaimed: ?My God! What have you done? Do you want me to lose my election? Do you realize I am standing from a Muslim separate electorate seat, and if my voters were to learn that I am going to eat ham sandwiches for lunch, do you think I have a ghost of a chance of being elected??? A downcast Mrs Jinnah retreated quickly, tiffin basket and all. But Jinnah and Chagla went on to have lunch at Cornaglia?s, a well-known Bombay restaurant, where Jinnah ordered a plate of pastry, a plate of pork sausages and coffee.

The incident is revealing in many ways. It speaks volumes about the Westernized lifestyle of the Jinnahs. Witness the nickname J, the penchant to have sandwiches for lunch, the choice of restaurant and the food ordered there. It was the lifestyle of a Westernized oriental gentleman closely paralleled by life in the Nehru household where only English was spoken among the siblings who referred to each other with nicknames like Nan and Jo.

Jinnah?s Westernization was evident in other ways as well. He was born Mohammad Ali Jinnahbhai. He refashioned this to M.A. Jinnah in London. He gave up his traditional Sindhi long yellow coat for Saville Row suits of which he had about 200. He never wore a silk tie twice and his shoes were two-tone leather or suede. His manners were perfect and he prided himself on the fact that he was a frequent guest in some of England?s stately homes and palaces.

His Westernized sensibilities could not have encouraged Islamist tendencies. Yet Jinnah has come to be known as the quintessential Muslim politician who roused Muslim religious sentiments to win for himself the state of Pakistan. Yet this is not how he began his political career. His early heroes were Dadabhai Naoroji and Pherozeshah Mehta. Even as late as 1925, Jinnah retained the political attributes that harked back to the early Congress. He remained committed to secular reform and national independence. When the young Raja of Mahmudabad spoke of himself as a ?Muslim first??, Jinnah chided him: ?My boy, no, you are an Indian first and then a Muslim.?? Jinnah began on the fringes of Muslim politics but he marked out for himself a space in Indian politics by becoming the sole spokesman of Muslims in India and also by making himself the champion of the two-nation theory.

Jinnah saw himself as a political Muslim. He used his Muslim identity to speak for the interests and aspirations of Muslims in India who, he believed, were not being adequately represented in the Congress and by the Congress. In Jinnah?s view, in an independent India dominated by the Congress, the Muslims would never get a fair deal. The Muslims, therefore, needed their own nation. The Muslims in India were more than a religious group, they were a nation within a nation. The making of Pakistan would be the recognition of the two nations within India.

Jinnah succeeded in achieving this goal. He was helped by British policies of divide and rule and the creation of separate electorate constituencies. Jinnah played up the separate interests and aspirations of Muslims and thus created the basis of communal politics. He believed that politics could be focused around religious blocs. He was a Westernized and secular man who contributed to the making of communal politics in India.

But this contradiction made Jinnah somewhat unique among communal politicians. He was no zealot. He simulated fanaticism and cynically manipulated Muslim religious feelings. He was a hard-headed realist who knew what he had to do if he wanted to attain his goal of Pakistan.

The change in Jinnah?s political profile entailed changes in his appearance and lifestyle. He took to wearing the sherwani and karkul cap which came to acquire his name. He began speaking more in Urdu, albeit a very anglicized version of it. His contempt for the ulema became tempered and subdued. Jinnah accepted and adopted the Islamic idiom. His politics, or rather the goal of his politics, demanded this. But this did not mean for Jinnah a complete surrender to Muslim orthodoxy. He paid no heed to those who wanted the Muslim League to be committed to a Pakistan based on Quranic principles. He resisted demands to oust the Ahmadis from the Muslim community. The wog did not become a maulavi.

The Pakistan that Jinnah got was not exactly what he had wanted. He complained to Lord Mountbatten that he had been given a ?moth-eaten Pakistan??. Neither was Pakistan an Islamic theocratic state that many orthodox Muslims had envisioned. Jinnah spoke of his vision of Pakistan in his address to the Pakistan Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947.

He spoke first of the ?cyclonic revolution?? which had created two independent sovereign dominions. Then he told the people of Pakistan, ?You are free; you are free to go to your temples, your are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed ? that has nothing to do with the business of the State. We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State?I think we should keep in front of us our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.??

The maker of communal politics had thus returned to the first principles of secularism. Did he know in August 1947 that he was dying and had thus returned to his original values, brushing aside in one grand sweep the means that he had adopted to reach the goal of Pakistan? He was amoral. The gaol mattered. He sought to create a secular state through communal politics.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/opin...us-sentiments-for-a-secular-state/cid/1023097
 
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