Wanted: a strong liberal voice

[Multani]

Because your examples are irrelevant , there is no concept of an "Islamic state" in Quran/Sunnah/early Islamic history .. hence your assertion that religion was a inseparable part of Islamic state throughout history is incorrect ..


Certain mods are not happy with religious discussions . So they say that instead of replying to any of Zarvan`s religious posts , you should report it .. and that is what I am doing !! And yes I have read your posts , don`t cast your pearls before swine .. that`s all I can say ..

Look how this guy evaded the examples, even though he is the one who asked for them in the first place.

He is evading them by making up utter nonsense about "state" and "caliphate"

 

[M. Sarmad]

Look how this guy evaded the examples, even though he is the one who asked for them in the first place.

He is evading them by making up utter nonsense about "state" and "caliphate"

Utter non sense ?? You did not try to prove me wrong dear ... And this is the best you could come up with ?? No doubt Madrasah education takes away the ability of critical thinking (or may be any kind of "thinking" ability)

 

[Multani]

Why would I give reasons??

You were the one who said that state and church can't be separated. Please explain. Your notion, not mine, the burden of argument is yours, not mine.

And political Islam is different from 'politicized Islam'. I'm not scare mongering at all, politicians/clergy have all used Islam for their political game and it's sickening. It's extremely sad.

It has tarnished the image of Islam throughout the world, and it has led to Muslim lands being torn up, an all you can eat buffet for global players. All thanks to those people who divide us on religious lines, make us fight amongst ourselves, or those TTP for example who regard us as non-believers and blow us up at every given opportunity, or those clerics who say that our army's fallen are not shaheed, or those that say that age restricting marriage laws are unIslamic.

The western masters also use religions for political games. The colonials, imperialists, and fascists always have, even the communists. This @Azlan Haider asserted that in Islamic history, there hasn't ever been conjoining of state and religion. Which is a fat lie.

So, I guess those are jungibaaz's reasons for keeping state and religion separate?

Just so that we don't let the politicians and clergy misuse Islam, and tarnish its worldwide image [ as if there was a good image of it historically ], we should separate religion and state, like the other nations in the world

Utter non sense ?? You did not try to prove me wrong dear ... And this is the best you could come up with ?? No doubt Madrasah education takes away the ability of critical thinking (or may be any kind of "thinking" ability)

Explain the example of Zaydi Imamate in Yemen for 1000 years, and the Abbasid - Mutazilite connection

You are the one who brought in the Abbasids

 

[Informant]

Everyone isnt born smart...foolish minds doesnt make one a liberal!
How is this bad?!
I beg your pardon
All these punishments are fine if we have a just person...So far even our justice system is corrupt fix that until then such punishment are dangerous as those who get them almost never seem to have done the crime
There is nothing wrong with rejecting some of the Sunnah as long as they dont go against the Quran...if you do not know then you should know that ALLAH did not say HE will protect the Hadith HE only said HE will protect the Quran...Besides the Quran is a full book and if the Hadith is according to the Quran then no one has problem accepting it however if it is confusing then rejecting it is better than being ignorant! If I do rafadain and you dont do rafadain fighting over that is pointless because by doing or not doing so will not affect my path to Jannah and hence should not be used as a means to call another any name! This is 1 small example but it is these small differences which become big due to ignorance....
This is stupid! Are you worshiping ALLAH or the person? Why are you interested what someone cares or thinks?! Its their business or loss if they look down..do what you want!
Who?!
That is why one needs to get their basics cleared so that no one can make them believe anything wrong! If their basics are screwed and they want to talk about other topics that is plain stupidity!
Sadly some people "claiming to have knowledge" have none...you question them and they charge you with blasphemy! If prophet SAW did that no one would have come to Islam....When a Mullah doesnt know something he should have the balls to say he doesnt know or it is not stated instead of creating a story of his own just so that he can "show-off" he knows everything...This is biddah and also Haraaam!!

Warned in the Quran but no one listens
I dont get this
Have you met these people you talk about?! What are you talking about?
Ok this is from the Quran for something...but what is your purpose of putting it here?
You talking about Christians?
Am yet to know of this cult!
huh?
This is mindset of Jahal people!
Isnt this the case everywhere!
Dont understand this 1
There are soo many people with soo many misconceptions...
Something wrong with taking stuff from the Quran?!
Whose they again?!

yeh sub kiya hai?!

Baji rahne dein, almost 39 characteristics he described would fit on TTP scums.

This Zarvan bin Sajid needs to get his *** beat. He is a Punjab Uni thug Jamati Islami buffoon. He is very very close to some epic *** whooping.

 

[M. Sarmad]

This @Azlan Haider asserted that in Islamic history, there hasn't ever been conjoining of state and religion. Which is a fat lie

Whatever I wrote is there for every one to read , And you are the one lying here .. or may be its your ignorance !!

Explain the example of Zaydi Imamate in Yemen for 1000 years, and the Abbasid - Mutazilite connection

You are the one who brought in the Abbasids

And there was a separation between "church" and state during the Abbasid Caliphate ... Any one who has tried to read Islamic history knows this ... But again it is not your fault .. I know there is a ban on discussing Islamic history in Madrassahs ... Ironically , In the 8 year course of Dars e Nizami , Islamic history is not taught as a subject !! No wonder why Muftis and Mullahs are completely ignorant of Islamic history !!

 

[Multani]

Whatever I wrote is there for every one to read , And you are the one lying here .. or may be its your ignorance !!



And there was a separation between "church" and state during the Abbasid Caliphate ... Any one who has tried to read Islamic history knows this ... But again it is not your fault .. I know there is a ban on discussing Islamic history in Madrassahs ... Ironically , In the 8 year course of Dars e Nizami , Islamic history is not taught as a subject !! No wonder why Muftis and Mullahs are completely ignorant of Islamic history !!

I don't care about your hate for Islamic madrassahs, and your insults

What I care about is you explaining the connection between Abbasids and Mutazilites.. Let us start with that.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I don't care about your hate for Islamic madrassahs, and your insults

What I care about is you explaining the connection between Abbasids and Mutazilites.. Let us start with that.

Why don`t they allow discussions on Islamic history in Madrassahs ?? Why don`t they teach Islamic History as a full subject ?? Of course it is not the fault of Muftis and Mullahs , they are completely ignorant of Islamic history as they were never allowed to study it critically ... I am stating facts ... and you are taking them as "insults" .... !!!

About Abbasids , Do you deny that there was a separation b/w "church" and state during their rule ?? Don`t jump here and there , we may discuss Mutazilites later on ...

 

[Multani]

Why don`t they allow discussions on Islamic history in Madrassahs ?? Why don`t they teach Islamic History as a full subject ?? Of course it is not the fault of Muftis and Mullahs , they are completely ignorant of Islamic history as they were never allowed to study it critically ... I am stating facts ... and you are taking them as "insults" .... !!!

About Abbasids , Do you deny that there was a separation b/w "church" and state during their rule ?? Don`t jump here and there , we may discuss Mutazilites later on ...

Ok, I wont take them as insults against madrassahs

Now, explain the Abbasid Mutazilite connection. I have been asking you since yesterday. Why did the Abbasids meddle in religious affairs?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Ok, I wont take them as insults against madrassahs

Now, explain the Abbasid Mutazilite connection. I have been asking you since yesterday. Why did the Abbasids meddle in religious affairs?

You are asking a question instead of replying to a very simple question that I asked , Now if you could give a simple answer to my question (preferably yes/no) , I would love to burst all your "bubbles" after that , one by one ... .

 

[Multani]

You are asking a question instead of replying to a very simple question that I asked , Now if you could give a simple answer to my question (preferably yes/no) , I would love to burst all your bubbles after that ....

explain the connection between the Abbasids and the Mutazilites. Then, I will talk about each and every Abbasid Caliph.

 

[M. Sarmad]

explain the connection between the Abbasids and the Mutazilites. Then, I will talk about each and every Abbasid Caliph.

Why are you avoiding a very simple question dear ?? Or at least Admit your ignorance first , then we may discuss it further ...

 

[Zarvan]

Ok listen up and listen carefully...I say get your basics right...I never said where you need to get them from ...

I also said fix you basics then go to higher parts like talaq and what not....

Dont try to be holier than the prophet! There were things Prophet did because he was a prophet why make life miserable? Allah said that the deen is simple and easy...so who are you to make it complex? The Muslims of today sound just like the Bani Israel in Surah Baqarah where they were asked to get a cattle and sacrifice it...but they wanted to show off how smart they are and questioned what kind of cattle, how old, and so on....

You people know not the differences between Wajib, Sunnah and Nafl and you go digging hadith to prove this and that! Get the basics right first which is pray! How to pray ....But you people want to include every Sunnah as faradh classifying them at will that Zohor doesnt only contain 4 faradh but this many Sunnah and Nafl bhi parnay cha hiyea warna namaz nai hoti ....this is what I am saying this is what I am pointing at which makes people confuse! And since you are damn confused yourself you never got any of my point but just copied and pasted from the Quran blindly...

Sunnah means Sunnah Prophet did that is why it is called Sunnah and not Faradh or Wajib! Learn this basics first before digging and going through Hadith! You people dont even read the basics and bounce into Hadith and get others confused!

@Azlan Haider If you have failed to read the topic at hand please dont state what you think it is....
I am trying to show him just how confused some people who blindly follow hadith are now if I cant quote the hadith and Quran how the hell can I show him? So before crying out to admin take the time to read what I am doing before calling it what you wanna call it!


Islamic group? Well it depends which group how you bring the problem and finally how much knowledge they have regarding Islam itself and the word secular which has evolved mind you from its original form (when it was introduced)

I am not being holier than the prophet you are degrading him we need to follow both Quran and sunnah and implement Islamic system no liberalism will be tolerated and system off kufar

 

[Dubious]

I am not being holier than the prophet you are degrading him we need to follow both Quran and sunnah and implement Islamic system no liberalism will be tolerated and system off kufar

I am not degrading him! I am just telling you not to make him like what the people of Isa AS made Nabi Isa!

1st know the basics then know the meaning of liberal and then know what kuffar system is!

Do you have a car? Do you drive? You use Internet! stop using Kuffar system!

 

[Zarvan]

I am not degrading him! I am just telling you not to make him like what the people of Isa AS made Nabi Isa!

1st know the basics then know the meaning of liberal and then know what kuffar system is!

Do you have a car? Do you drive? You use Internet! stop using Kuffar system!

Your post shows you know nothing about Islam so stop wasting my time

 

[Secur]

Do you have a car? Do you drive? You use Internet! stop using Kuffar system!

Come on Talon , do you have nothing else to do ?