Wanted: a strong liberal voice

[Dubious]

Yes you are getting ALLAH's wrath by denying his order in the Quran which he gave several times of following ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW and why are you not telling me method of Salah only from Quran I am telling you its not their lady neither of Zakat and most other orders details are all in Hadees

Quran ka aik hi order nai hai several times....aur bhi order hain jo repeat kiyea way hain like koi hai jo soochay samjhay!

(3:164): "Indeed Allah has already done a favor to the believers, when He raised amongst them a messenger from themselves to recite to them His verses, purify them and teach them the book and the wisdom."
And Allah says

(4:64): And We have not sent any Messenger but that he must be obeyed by the command of Allah. And, (O Beloved,) if they, having wronged their souls, had come to you imploring the forgiveness of Allah, and the Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) had also asked forgiveness for them, then (owing to this mediation and intercession) they would certainly have found Allah Most Relenting, Ever-Merciful.

Blue all keeps refering to ALLAH...and the red is added by humans not by Prophet! Have you seen the context of the verse? Start from Ayat 52! The ayat is also referring to msgrs before Muhammad. Any msgr shows this is a ayat that says msgrs have always come and they have not come for no reason...
O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

And Further Allah says.

(4:150,151): 150. "Surely, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and seek to discriminate between Allah and His Messengers and say: ‘We believe in some and deny the others,’ and intend to find a way in between (belief and disbelief),..They are the ones who are in fact the disbelievers. And We have prepared a humiliating torment for the disbelievers."

messengers....and please read in context if you are incapable of reading in context dont quote me! I am not a scholar and can not tuition you! I read the meaning from more than 2 websites or keep searching until I am satisfied because ALLAH said that it is human nature to search for the truth!
Instead of copying and pasting I suggest you read and understand! Read in context! Otherwise you understand not!

Allah says

(7:157): (They are the people) who follow the Messenger, the Prophet (titled as) al-Ummi, whose (eminent attributes) these people find written in the Torah and the Injil (Gospel); who enjoins on them virtues and forbids them vices, declares wholesome things lawful and impure ones unlawful for them and removes from them their heavy burdens and yokes (i.e., shackles) weighing upon them (due to their acts of disobedience and blesses them with freedom). So those who will believe in this (most exalted Messenger [blessings and peace be upon him]) and venerate and revere him and serve and support him (in his Din [Religion]) and follow this light (the Qur’an) that has been sent down with him, it is they who will flourish and prosper.’

In his deen! And his deen comes from the Quran!

(33:21):"In truth, in Allah’s Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) there is for you a most perfect and beautiful model (of life) for every such person that expects and aspires to (meeting) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah abundantly."

Haan tou model hain example hain follow kero! Kiyun nai follow kertay?

(42:51): "And every man does not have the faculty that Allah should speak to him (directly) except by Revelation, or from behind a veil, or by sending some angel as a messenger to reveal with His permission what Allah may will. Surely, He is Most High, Most Wise."
(3:32): " Say! Obey Allah and the Messenger. Then, should they turn back, Allah does not love the disbelievers."
4:80): “Whosoever follows the Blessed Prophet(pbuh) has followed Allah. ”

Context started here: Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:23-32] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

(5:92): "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner."

Yes his duty was to proclaim to teach and to send the msg! Then why is everyone killing those who did not accept the msg? Muhammad SAW nay aysi zabardasti nai ki na hi unko allowed thi agar kerni hoti apnay chacha par kertay! Tou yeh Taliban kiyun keray hain zabardasti?!

(16:44): “....And, (O Glorious Messenger,) We have revealed to you the Glorious Reminder (the Qur’an) so that you may explain clearly to people that have been sent down to them and that they may meditate.”

(3:132): "And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy."

Tou kero obey and stop spreading fitnah...kero obey and aurtoun ko unka makaam dilaou...kero follow and get peace in Pakistan kero follow and jhoot mat bolo kero follow kiyun nai kertay follow? Sirf copy paste kernay kay liyea hota hai follow?

(3:164): "Indeed, Allah conferred a great favour on the believers that He raised amongst them (the most eminent) Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) from amongst themselves, who recites to them His Revelations, purifies them, and educates them on the Book and Wisdom though, before that, they were in manifest error."

This all refers to the the Quran!

(24:54): "Say, :Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if you turn away, then on him (the messenger) lies (the responsibility of) what he is burdened with, and on you lies (the responsibility of) what you are burdened with. And if you obey him, you will get the right path. The duty of the Messenger is no more than to convey the message clearly."
(59:7): “……And whatever the Messenger (blessings and peace be upon him) gives you, take that and whatever he forbids you, abstain (from that) ……..”

Tou log apna haram, apna wajib, sunnah ko wajib nafal ko wajib kiyun banatay hain? Why change the truth?

 

[Zarvan]

Quran ka aik hi order nai hai several times....aur bhi order hain jo repeat kiyea way hain like koi hai jo soochay samjhay!

Blue all keeps refering to ALLAH...and the red is added by humans not by Prophet! Have you seen the context of the verse? Start from Ayat 52! The ayat is also referring to msgrs before Muhammad. Any msgr shows this is a ayat that says msgrs have always come and they have not come for no reason...
O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.


messengers....and please read in context if you are incapable of reading in context dont quote me! I am not a scholar and can not tuition you! I read the meaning from more than 2 websites or keep searching until I am satisfied because ALLAH said that it is human nature to search for the truth!
Instead of copying and pasting I suggest you read and understand! Read in context! Otherwise you understand not!

In his deen! And his deen comes from the Quran!
Haan tou model hain example hain follow kero! Kiyun nai follow kertay?
Context started here: Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:23-32] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
Yes his duty was to proclaim to teach and to send the msg! Then why is everyone killing those who did not accept the msg? Muhammad SAW nay aysi zabardasti nai ki na hi unko allowed thi agar kerni hoti apnay chacha par kertay! Tou yeh Taliban kiyun keray hain zabardasti?!
Tou kero obey and stop spreading fitnah...kero obey and aurtoun ko unka makaam dilaou...kero follow and get peace in Pakistan kero follow and jhoot mat bolo kero follow kiyun nai kertay follow? Sirf copy paste kernay kay liyea hota hai follow?
This all refers to the the Quran!


Tou log apna haram, apna wajib, sunnah ko wajib nafal ko wajib kiyun banatay hain? Why change the truth?

Deen comes from both Quran and sunnah lady Quran tell to offer Salah and pay zakat and all other orders it's hades which tells you how to do that and that revelation is for both Quran and sun nah and tell me method off salah only from Quran

 

[Multani]

Tou kero obey and stop spreading fitnah...kero obey and aurtoun ko unka makaam dilaou...kero follow and get peace in Pakistan kero follow and jhoot mat bolo kero follow kiyun nai kertay follow? Sirf copy paste kernay kay liyea hota hai follow?
This all refers to the the Quran!


Tou log apna haram, apna wajib, sunnah ko wajib nafal ko wajib kiyun banatay hain? Why change the truth?

It is one opinion that this all refers to the Qur'an Majeed, but there is an even stronger opinion among Sunni Ulama, that this refers to the Messenger. @Zarvan has quoted right

Deen comes from both Quran and sunnah lady Quran tell to offer Salah and pay zakat and all other orders it's hades which tells you how to do that and that revelation is for both Quran and sun nah and tell me method off salah only from Quran

Yes. What some people don't understand is that Deen is also knowledge that is learned from a teacher, not by self.

The Deen is passed down through the generations via chain from the Prophet salAllaho alaihi wa salam. It comes down in Sanad, just as in Hadith Shareef.

We Muslims have Tafaseer of the Qur'an written by Sound Scholars of Islam over 1100 years. Modern day Mufassirs, don't hold much ground to Imams of the Past.

@Azlan Haider @syedali73

 

[Solomon2]

What the ''Islamic'' group doesn't understand is that by having Secular laws it doesn't make you a kafir. There is nothing wrong with borrowing positive attitudes of different cultures.

How can you justify this to the "Islamic" group?

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Zarvan @Multani @Talon

Religious debates are not allowed here so please refrain from participating in any kind of religious discussions .

@Manticore @Web Master

 

[Multani]

@Zarvan @Multani @Talon

Religious debates are not allowed here so please refrain from participating in any kind of religious discussions .

which religious debate? I haven't engaged in any religious debate. just answered a post.

 

[M. Sarmad]

which religious debate? I haven't engaged in any religious debate. just answered a post.

How else does one participate ?? You and Zarvan both are wrong here but I can`t reply as it would be against the forum rules !!

 

[Jungibaaz]

pakistanis need to be shown what is liberalism, currently its equated with drinking or having sex with loads of people or wearing revealing cloths.
In a conservative society this behaviour might be a sign of not being conservative or traditional but liberalism is much more than that.

Absolutely, Pakistan needs more liberalism and more separation of religion and state.

 

[Multani]

Absolutely, Pakistan needs more liberalism and more separation of religion and state.

one cannot separate state and church

 

[M. Sarmad]

one cannot separate state and church

Almost all the rulers in Muslim history applied the model of secularism during their rule. During the Abbasid period, ulema were not allowed to interfere in the political affairs of state and the caliph was not allowed to meddle in religious affairs. The Abbasid came to power with the help of Iranians who wanted the caliph to remain secular while the clergy at that time wanted the caliph to adhere to Islamic laws and impose Shariah. The conflict was resolved with the signing of a pact regarding state and religion being separate. Great historian Ziauddin Burney, in his book Fatwa-e-Jahandari, also emphasises that state and religion should be kept separate.

 

[Multani]

Almost all the rulers in Muslim history applied the model of secularism during their rule. During the Abbasid period, ulema were not allowed to interfere in the political affairs of state and the caliph was not allowed to meddle in religious affairs. The Abbasid came to power with the help of Iranians who wanted the caliph to remain secular while the clergy at that time wanted the caliph to adhere to Islamic laws and impose Shariah. The conflict was resolved with the signing of a pact regarding state and religion being separate. Great historian Ziauddin Burney, in his book Fatwa-e-Jahandari, also emphasises that state and religion should be kept separate.

Abbasids? What about the Mutazilites? The Abbasids did meddle with religious affairs. It is historically proven.

Take an example of a religious family. The Sadaat, They, including Imam al Husayn alaihisalam, declared that religion cannot separate from the state.

Take another example. The Yemeni Imamate of the Zaydis. A religious state 1000 years old.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Abbasids?

Yes Abbasids . Read their history ..

Also read this so you may get some idea what we are talking about :
Islam and secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take an example of a religious family. The Sadaat, They, including Imam al Husayn alaihisalam, declared that religion cannot separate from the state.

So Kerbala was a war against secularism !!! What next ? May be Badr was a war against communism ?? right ?

 

[Multani]

Yes Abbasids . Read their history ..

Also read this so you may get a basic idea what we are talking about :
Islam and secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So Kerbala was a war against secularism !!! What next ? May be Badr was a war against communism ?? right ?

Please don't evade the examples I gave you. They were concrete examples.

I call in all unbiased readers interested in Islamic History to look at the examples I gave.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Please don't evade the examples I gave you. They were concrete examples.

I call in all unbiased readers interested in Islamic History to look at the examples I gave.

Meray bhai I have read Islamic history in detail .. I know very well what I am talking about .. So please prove me wrong .. I am waiting ...

 

[Multani]

Meray bhai I have read Islamic history in detail .. I know very well what I am talking about .. So please prove me wrong .. I am waiting ...

Tell me about the Abbasids and the Mutazilites, as the first example I gave you

And then please tell me about the Zaydi Imamate in Yemen, for 1000 years

[ in sha Allah, dozens of more examples are waiting for you ]

wa bilAllahi tawfiq