Vietnam's Kilo-class submarines a serious threat to China

[tanlixiang28776]

The PLAAF and PLA are not the PLAN.

Naval wise, it PLAN has never engaged in a major operation aside from exercises.

The ROCN at least tried to resist the Imperial Navy before it was annihilated by the Nihon Kaigun.

Experience wise neither the PLAN, or the VN have any recent combat experience. However as far as past battles the PLAN absolutely demolished the VN last time they fought

 

[Aepsilons]

Experience wise neither the PLAN, or the VN have any recent combat experience. However as far as past battles the PLAN absolutely demolished the VN last time they fought

It really wasn't even a battle, or a war, it was a small time skirmish. lol.

And battling South Vietnam, which was at war with the North Vietnamese at the same time? lol.Its like being proud of defeating a dying man that was already mugged by a thief.

Come on man, there is no pride or honor in winning some small time skirmish with a battle ridden, (then) economically disadvantaged country like Viet Nam. There is no honor in reveling in the demise of a significantly smaller, poorer, unstable neighbor.

The Vietnam of today, is different from the Vietnam of yesteryear.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Yes clearly stated
In a war between Vietnam and China, the belligerent Japanese will definitely participate in
All they have been camourflaging themselves as "pacifists" are ridiculous

My dear Keel

I do not bring emotions while studying history, so rest assured I'll not be biased in this thread either. Please see my very first post #4 in this thread.

Based on my analysis I disagree with you. Here is why.

I have studied Japanese history from 1850s. Their politics, education, social and economic aspects are a fantastic read. Knowing all that, I feel that Japanese will not participate in a Chinese-Vietnam war if (that is a big if), it happens in the next decade or so.

I cannot predict anything beyond that, because things are changing too fast even for an ardent student like me.

peace

 

[tanlixiang28776]

It really wasn't even a battle, or a war, it was a small time skirmish. lol.

And battling South Vietnam, which was at war with the North Vietnamese at the same time? lol.Its like being proud of defeating a dying man that was already mugged by a thief.

Come on man, there is no pride or honor in winning some small time skirmish with a battle ridden, (then) economically disadvantaged country like Viet Nam. There is no honor in reveling in the demise of a significantly smaller, poorer, instable neighbor.

The Vietnam of today, is different from the Vietnam of yesteryear.

You talk about experience as if the PLAN is the only one who lacks it. As for the skirmish at that time the VN actually had slightly superior weaponry at the time with its American ships.

In fact the situation has only changed in that in another skirmish the outcome would even be more skewed.

 

[Djinn]

And i was posting a picture of a small naval parade. lol.

See how Japan is peaceful? We only parade around nowadays.






Correct bhai @FaujHistorian , in modern warfare, in an offensive war to be exact, the factor that counts is a nation's navy. A well tested, regulated, and highly inter-operable navy succeeds over a navy that may have size, but may have have poor interoperability and lack of critical experience.

Experience is the key here.

Thanks to RMA (Revolution in military affairs) China isn't fielding the forces, which it was like 2 decades back. Speaking of Asia-Pacific Japanese navy is a force to be reckoned with, but in all fairness so is PLAN. Since China is an emerging power, so for China to be able to rival the likes of USA, it is going to take time, but considering the stagering rate at which China is churning out high tech eqipment, i can say with assurity that China will catch up soon enough. I am not very well versed with Japenese doctrine related to maritime affairs so perhaps you can bring some thing new to my knowledge. As for China, The maritime area-denial strategy has been on the cards for quite some time and the way things are going in Asia-Pacific, China seems to be headed in that direction pretty fast.
And while speaking of NAVY, let's not forget it's dependence upon Airforce------Both of which collectively constitute the AirSea battle concept. While PLAN may lack the experience and the equipment, but it appears that PLAAF will be there to fill in the gaps and you weigh in Chinese ASAT, ASBM, SSBN capabilities and the rest are covered too.
So my two cents: Experience is overrated! Even if China gets to deter USA and others, That's a mission accomplished!

 

[Aepsilons]

You talk about experience as if the PLAN is the only one who lacks it. As for the skirmish at that time the VN actually had slightly superior weaponry at the time with its American ships.

In fact the situation has only changed in that in another skirmish the outcome would even be more skewed.

The South Vietnamese Navy's incapacity tho having a much technologically superior inventory is a lesson for all of us.

Superior hardware, in the end, doesn't win conflicts.

Strategy does.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

The South Vietnamese Navy's incapacity tho having a much technologically superior inventory is a lesson for all of us.

Superior hardware, in the end, doesn't win conflicts.

Strategy does.

Actually the lesson is that slightly superior hardware without numbers nor sound strategy lose wars like Nazi germany learned.

 

[Aepsilons]

You talk about experience as if the PLAN is the only one who lacks it. As for the skirmish at that time the VN actually had slightly superior weaponry at the time with its American ships.

In fact the situation has only changed in that in another skirmish the outcome would even be more skewed.

This begs us all to re-analyze the Korean War. The North Korean People's Army (Korean People's Army) that invaded South Korea caught the South Koreans + Allied Troops by surprise. However, the South Koreans were able to maintain the Pusan Perimeter, and despite the hordes upon hordes of North Koreans , were eventually able to push back the North Koreans beyond to the 38th Parallel.

The Battle of Inchon of 1950 shows us, reminds us that shear military size and tactics don't win conflicts, but strategy does.

This to this day....less we forget....

Korean Peninsula in 2012, photo by satellite,

Actually the lesson is that slightly superior hardware without numbers nor sound strategy lose wars like Nazi germany learned.

Nazi Germany collapsed not because of numbers, she had steamrolled through the French and British Line, and ejected the British at Dunkirk. Nazi Germany failed because of poor strategy, period. Hitler's launching of Operation Barbarossa and opening a 2nd front war with the Soviet Union was the doom of his day.

That and his interfering with the strategy of his Generals and Field Marshalls also ruined the 3rd Reich's Military Abilities.

Differentiate STRATEGY from TACTICS.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

This begs us all to re-analyze the Korean War. The North Korean People's Army (Korean People's Army) that invaded South Korea caught the South Koreans + Allied Troops by surprise. However, the South Koreans were able to maintain the Pusan Perimeter, and despite the hordes upon hordes of North Koreans , were eventually able to push back the North Koreans beyond to the 38th Parallel.

The Battle of Inchon of 1950 shows us, reminds us that shear military size and tactics don't win conflicts, but strategy does.

This to this day....less we forget....

Korean Peninsula in 2012, photo by satellite,

This is an awful example. It took the entire UN of 16 allied nations including the US and South Korean forces with vast superiority in men and weaponry to produce such results. Who were then promptly almost completely ejected again by a numerically even but far less well equiped PLA.

 

[Djinn]

Chinese are also operating hydrophonic detection system at the bottom of the SCS. Don't see how Vietnamese subs will go beyond it undetected.

 

[Aepsilons]

This is an awful example. It took the entire UN of 16 allied nations including the US and South Korean forces with vast superiority in men and weaponry to produce such results. Who were then promptly almost completely ejected again by a numerically even but far less well equiped PLA.

Who initiated the conflict , the invasion? Was it Seoul or Pyongyang ? The ultimate goal of Pyongyang ( and Beijing) was to unify the Korean Peninsula under Pyongyang. This failed, utterly, in the Battle of Inchon. Thanks in lieu to the Pusan Perimeter and the interoperability of the Koreans + UN Forces.

Seoul never had the goal of uniting the Peninsula by force by tacit. Seoul + UN reacted to a clear offensive provocation, which warranted the South to eject the enemy from the border. So, even despite North Korea's Soviet techs + Chinese man power, were unable to reconquer South Korea , rather, stalemate was seen at the 38th Parallel.

Its all about coordination. buddy.

We call this , refer to this as interoperability and critical response capability.

 

[Keel]

My dear Keel

I do not bring emotions while studying history, so rest assured I'll not be biased in this thread either. Please see my very first post #4 in this thread.

Based on my analysis I disagree with you. Here is why.

I have studied Japanese history from 1850s. Their politics, education, social and economic aspects are a fantastic read. Knowing all that, I feel that Japanese will not participate in a Chinese-Vietnam war if (that is a big if), it happens in the next decade or so.

I cannot predict anything beyond that, because things are changing too fast even for an ardent student like me.

peace

I disagree with you
You've studied THEIR history which are manipulated to their favour

What Japanese history lessons leave out - BBC News
Japanese history textbook provokes sharp controversy - World Socialist Web Site
Japanese Schoolbooks Anger S. Korea, China (washingtonpost.com)
Japan Is Trying to Rewrite Its Horrific World War II History — We Can't Let That Happen - Mic
Will Japan’s habit of rewriting its history affect its future? - The Washington Post



It is hard not to bring emotions about the Japanese if you look at these horrors

Japan has invaded China so many times just in recent history:

May 1874
Japanese invasion of Taiwan (1874) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1 August 1894 – 17 April 1895
First Sino-Japanese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

May–October 1895
Japanese invasion of Taiwan (1895) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1900
Eight-Nation Alliance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

September 19, 1931
Japanese invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mukden Incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

July 7, 1937 – September 9, 1945
Second Sino-Japanese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Unit 731 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Comfort women - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

Chinese are also operating hydrophonic detection system at the bottom of the SCS. Don't see how Vietnamese subs will go beyond it undetected.

lol, trust me, their ability to detect subs is not that good. I can't go into details. lol.

 

[Djinn]

lol, trust me, their ability to detect subs is not that good. I can't go into details. lol.

Oh that's a bummer. Perhaps working on RoboSubs/ UUV's would be productive.

 

[surya kiran]

The biggest Navy in any ocean is the USN. Atlantic, Pacific or Indian. The Pacific Command, comprises 3rd and 7th fleet. 4 CSG in the 3rd and 1 in the 7th plus all those subs and destroyers in the 7th. Just one of these is enough to bring down ANY navy. The kind of firepower they can unleash is unprecedented. And the trump is they can do these thousands of kms away from their territory in the opponents backyard. Anybody who thinks otherwise, is living in a fool's paradise.

The Americans as of date are not yet aligned for a fight with the PLAN. But, the preparations are there with the Asia pivot. Give this 5 years. Over the next 5 years, you will see a strengthening of US partnerships with East Asian and South East Asian states. This could even be through defence alliances. And once those alliances are in place, the testing of the Americans of the Chinese will begin. The emergence of a NATO like organisation is not far behind.