Vietnam War: Tunnel Rats

[Psychic]

I just want to ask you one question, Did you work??

If so, aren't you also a "professional slave" to your boss?

One way or another, people are just slave for other people, you may think you are on top of the world, but did you live your live simply for YOUR OWN sake? You don't have tax to pay? bills to pay? mouth to feed? Since when do people work for their own sake now? Well, unless you have millions and millions of dollars.

So, if you are one of the zombie working as a professional slave for someone else, did you see me come to your work place and protest the hell out of it??

This is why I am a professional soldier and you are, well, I don't quite really know what you are.

I can quit whenever I want on the other hand, you are not sort of a person who will ever question orders of his superiors it doesn't matter how bad you may feel about them and even when you think that their orders are unjustified.
You haven't answered why some soldiers follow the path which is the right one according to them instead of blindly following some psychopath. There is a difference between a mercenary and a soldier which you are unable to understand.
Muhammad Ali refused to take part in Vietnam war, I can give many other examples (of regular professional soldiers behaving like a good human being) but it is of no use.
By your logic, groups like ISIS and Boko haram are doing just fine and there members are professional warriors.
Anyways this discussion will carry on forever so let's agree to disagree here.

 

[jhungary]

I can quit whenever I want on the other hand, you are not sort of a person who will ever question orders of his superiors it doesn't matter how bad you may feel about them and even when you think that their orders are unjustified.
.

It never about whether or not you can quit whenever you want, you can quit being a soldier anytime you want to. But why?

It's like, you get a job of Computer Programmer and hate to perform software engineering. You want to be a soldier, that part mean you accept a certain lifestyle, you accepted certain possibility, you accept certain responsibility. You become a soldier to KILL PEOPLE, that's what soldier do, you don't expect to be a soldier and travel or because of an opportunity, you are a soldier, you expect to follow order. If you have a problem following an order, you should not be a soldier in the first place.

Simply saying, if you feel like you are going to sent into an unjust war in the future and kill people that you don't wanted to, then DON'T BECOME A SOLDIER

You haven't answered why some soldiers follow the path which is the right one according to them instead of blindly following some psychopath. There is a difference between a mercenary and a soldier which you are unable to understand.

No, this is what YOU don't understand. Of course, things are a bit easier to say if you are not part of it and sitting in a room and questioning should America involved in this or that. Or what is just, what is unjust.

Soldier follow orders, and that's how things work, we don't question orders, simply because every time if we second guess our action, NOTHING will be done, and if order given were not followed, NOTHING will be done, and we may as well pack up and have a picnic

And another question being "To what extreme" you think an order is unjust? Did your commanding officer ordering you to rape the women and children of that village? Or Did he gave out explicit instruction to kill everyone? If this is what you can think of, then I understand. and nobody would simply follow it. But what is an order given?

For example, I used to run Convoy Op, the standing order is "You don not Stop" and "You do not deviate from the course" Now, if a 13 years old stand in the middle of the road in front of your convoy, what did you do?

We do not have any order to kill everyone in town, nor do we ever had any order to rape every women in sight, but those did happen, does it mean the chain of command is collapsing? As I said, without regard to anything, CRIME DO HAPPEN IN WAR, as in normal life, and what you think a war is unjust and we simply following what soldier do is not a problem actually, as I said, if you have a conscious mind and don't want to invade or fight anyone, then DON'T BE A SOLDIER.

Muhammad Ali refused to take part in Vietnam war, I can give many other examples (of regular professional soldiers behaving like a good human being) but it is of no use.

My dad REFUSED to fight in Vietnam when he was drafted, my dad went to Vietnam as a medic, well, navy corpsman to be exact.

Refused to fight does not mean you don't serve your country, it may be a new piece of information to you, but being a soldier, sailor, airmen and so on does not equate to one must fight.

Problem with you is, you have a pre-set mind on what we, the American, do in the last 50 years are unjust, and inherently, all the people involve in a war is unjust. Mo Ali refused to fight, and eventually evade the draft. So are he just and my dad is unjust? Consider this, while the motivation are one and the same. But simply because my dad believe in it's national responsibility and went anyway, albeit, a non-combatant role. Yet Mo Ali, waving his Muslim right and proclaiming "He ain't got no beef with Vietcong" does it make him more righteous? But as I said, you would think he is and see my dad sort of "caved" in the end, because, in your mind, that war was unjust and hence all association is unjust, and when my dad is part of it, then even tho his clause starting "refusing" to fight are the same with Mo Ali.

Had my dad took the route Mo Ali did, he would not be able to live with himself.

By your logic, groups like ISIS and Boko haram are doing just fine and there members are professional warriors.
Anyways this discussion will carry on forever so let's agree to disagree here.

No, I did not say that.

I respect those people we fought against, that does not mean I support their notion or were they actually any professionalism in it. My grand dad respect the hell out of the German does that mean he buy into German nationalism?

Being a professional soldier is one thing, you train to deal with situation, fighting with a group is another. Why you fight is another question.

Do I see ISIS as professional soldier? Some of them are, some of them no, and this is the reason why they are so hard to contain, because everyone see ISIS as a bunch of ragtag Islamofo who hell bend on crazy stuff. When you start refusing to give credit where its due, you WILL lose your battle. They are a long way from the same group that blown themselves up setting IED in Iraq.

But does that mean I buy what they are fighting for? LOL What do you think?[/quote]

 

[Psychic]

It never about whether or not you can quit whenever you want, you can quit being a soldier anytime you want to. But why?

It's like, you get a job of Computer Programmer and hate to perform software engineering. You want to be a soldier, that part mean you accept a certain lifestyle, you accepted certain possibility, you accept certain responsibility. You become a soldier to KILL PEOPLE, that's what soldier do, you don't expect to be a soldier and travel or because of an opportunity, you are a soldier, you expect to follow order. If you have a problem following an order, you should not be a soldier in the first place.

Simply saying, if you feel like you are going to sent into an unjust war in the future and kill people that you don't wanted to, then DON'T BECOME A SOLDIER



No, this is what YOU don't understand. Of course, things are a bit easier to say if you are not part of it and sitting in a room and questioning should America involved in this or that. Or what is just, what is unjust.

Soldier follow orders, and that's how things work, we don't question orders, simply because every time if we second guess our action, NOTHING will be done, and if order given were not followed, NOTHING will be done, and we may as well pack up and have a picnic

And another question being "To what extreme" you think an order is unjust? Did your commanding officer ordering you to rape the women and children of that village? Or Did he gave out explicit instruction to kill everyone? If this is what you can think of, then I understand. and nobody would simply follow it. But what is an order given?

For example, I used to run Convoy Op, the standing order is "You don not Stop" and "You do not deviate from the course" Now, if a 13 years old stand in the middle of the road in front of your convoy, what did you do?

We do not have any order to kill everyone in town, nor do we ever had any order to rape every women in sight, but those did happen, does it mean the chain of command is collapsing? As I said, without regard to anything, CRIME DO HAPPEN IN WAR, as in normal life, and what you think a war is unjust and we simply following what soldier do is not a problem actually, as I said, if you have a conscious mind and don't want to invade or fight anyone, then DON'T BE A SOLDIER.

US has been bullying the world since WW2.
You invade others, do bad things in battlefield, result is clear. More of you die by committing suicide than enemy fire because you feel guilt. Why do you feel guilt , because you are fighting for wrong cause.Because your country is opressor. Because you did nasty things.

 

[jhungary]

US has been bullying the world since WW2.
You invade others, do bad things in battlefield, result is clear. More of you die by committing suicide than enemy fire because you feel guilt. Why do you feel guilt , because you are fighting for wrong cause.Because your country is opressor. Because you did nasty things.

lol....So, tell me this.

When Pakistan go fight a war, will the soldier going to come back all shrine and gloomy??

Not to even mention the number 1 reason why soldier commit suicide is due to survivor guilt, not from the guilt from killing people.

And then I am pretty safe to assume you know nothing about war, nothing about battle. But then again, why would you??

Anyway, yeah, more US soldier died from killing themselves doing bad thing than enemy fire lol, How old are you? 4?

 

[Neptune]

1- I am fasting. Starving since 16 and a half hours in 40+ degree Celsius.
2- I think Geneva conventions defined evil and rules of fighting. One may kill his enemy but may not desecrate his dead body or torture a POW like what happened in Abu Gharib.
3- You have to make tough decisions in a battle field and sometimes you may kill women and children but the point is did you kill them intentionally or not. John Kerry said US troops did murder, plunder and rape in Vietnam. I did the same. He is ashamed of what he did.
Now tell me, is there a difference between murder, rape and plunder and collateral damage or not? What are the Geneva conventions? They set rules of fighting. Why was UN and League of Nations formed?

Killing an ak weilding enemy and raping a 12 year old girl are two different things and every one knows what's allowed and what's evil. If you do evil, then there should be a court martial. Even Whermacht court martialed it's soldiers who were involved in gang rape if any. That was an example of what's evil and what's not.

4- I am medically unfit to join armed forces of my country. (Hyper mobile elbow joints)So from then onwards, I have become anti war.

1- Good for you..keep it up

2- I suppose you have no idea on how the Geneva Convention defines the "rules of war". What do you expect in a military conflict, people don't fight like playing chess.

3- In war for soldiers, the one and only basic situation where you are authorized to fire on women and children is that when they transform into enemy combatants from being a non-combatant. At this point, media loves to exaggerate the situation. And FYI, the term non-combatant defines civilians who don't directly take part in combat. That civilian let alone children, it can even be a dog. From military perspective, they are not women, men, children nor animals. They are non-combatants.
You talk like sexual assault is legal in civilian life but it's a crime in times of war?

What you are calling a professional soldier is a professional slave to me.

HOLD ON RIGHT THERE! From your side what you call as slaves are Pakistani jawans who prefer a dirty job for a little amount of money for the protection of your country and yourself demanding nothing in return. Those that you don't know their names nor their faces.

There is a difference in trying to bring peace in a war torn African nation and destroying another country just because they follow a different ideology.

Military Personnel are no politician. For soldiers there are only very few things in their minds at the field:
1-survival, 2- loyalty to superiors and fellow soldiers, 3- orders/objectives.


There's no policy making in this business. Judge the politicians and the policies of the countries as a freeman on the earth.

@jhungary soon we'll start thinking to thank god we are not charged with any crimes yet.
A decorated walks into a bar and the guy next to him asks;
+Afghanistan? Have you ever killed someone?
-No, I am about to.

 

[jhungary]

1- Good for you..keep it up

2- I suppose you have no idea on how the Geneva Convention defines the "rules of war". What do you expect in a military conflict, people don't fight like playing chess.

3- In war for soldiers, the one and only basic situation where you are authorized to fire on women and children is that when they transform into enemy combatants from being a non-combatant. At this point, media loves to exaggerate the situation. And FYI, the term non-combatant defines civilians who don't directly take part in combat. That civilian let alone children, it can even be a dog. From military perspective, they are not women, men, children nor animals. They are non-combatants.
You talk like sexual assault is legal in civilian life but it's a crime in times of war?





HOLD ON RIGHT THERE! From your side what you call as slaves are Pakistani jawans who prefer a dirty job for a little amount of money for the protection of your country and yourself demanding nothing in return. Those that you don't know their names nor their faces.



Military Personnel are no politician. For soldiers there are only very few things in their minds at the field:
1-survival, 2- loyalty to superiors and fellow soldiers, 3- orders/objectives.


There's no policy making in this business. Judge the politicians and the policies of the countries as a freeman on the earth.

@jhungary soon we'll start thinking to thank god we are not charged with any crimes yet.
A decorated walks into a bar and the guy next to him asks;
+Afghanistan? Have you ever killed someone?
-No, I am about to.

Well, from time to time, I had ran in to this type of person who have a quarrel with war just because it started by someone particular, as you can see in his post #44. But at the same time, those people know the least about war, only as what they believe in their own agenda.

War cannot be fought in a way you give quarter to each other, every decision is snap and every decision almost always lead to death, just at the end of the day, when you are the one who are fighting, you just don't want that to be you, or your guy.

This type of people think there is a "Choice" for war, where why you can shoot someone in the hand or leg but you instead go for a doubt taps or why you go fight a war when the war they feel is unjust.

Question is, what my dad said is very true, which may I again remind the good folks here he REFUSED to fight in Nam, yet he went, personal agenda is one thing, serving your country is another, whatever political motivation you have, you are a citizen on this nation none the less, you serve the nation first, then ask question later. There is a time and a place for you to discuss what's the direction of your nation should be, or what war should they fight or pull out, and that time is called An ELECTION

And killing a fellow man require a strong conviction, it's not easy to do, I am not saying it got easier or what, but for those who have not experience killing, good on you, I hope you never have to.

And LOL on the bar bits, that actually happened to me after I went home from Iraq.

I was walking into a pub with a female companion after I came back from Iraq and some college dude bump into me and said "had you kill enough women and children over there?"

I did not say a god damn thing.......

 

[Psychic]

1- Good for you..keep it up

2- I suppose you have no idea on how the Geneva Convention defines the "rules of war". What do you expect in a military conflict, people don't fight like playing chess.

3- In war for soldiers, the one and only basic situation where you are authorized to fire on women and children is that when they transform into enemy combatants from being a non-combatant. At this point, media loves to exaggerate the situation. And FYI, the term non-combatant defines civilians who don't directly take part in combat. That civilian let alone children, it can even be a dog. From military perspective, they are not women, men, children nor animals. They are non-combatants.
You talk like sexual assault is legal in civilian life but it's a crime in times of war?





HOLD ON RIGHT THERE! From your side what you call as slaves are Pakistani jawans who prefer a dirty job for a little amount of money for the protection of your country and yourself demanding nothing in return. Those that you don't know their names nor their faces.



Military Personnel are no politician. For soldiers there are only very few things in their minds at the field:
1-survival, 2- loyalty to superiors and fellow soldiers, 3- orders/objectives.


There's no policy making in this business. Judge the politicians and the policies of the countries as a freeman on the earth.

@jhungary soon we'll start thinking to thank god we are not charged with any crimes yet.
A decorated walks into a bar and the guy next to him asks;
+Afghanistan? Have you ever killed someone?
-No, I am about to.

Well, from time to time, I had ran in to this type of person who have a quarrel with war just because it started by someone particular, as you can see in his post #44. But at the same time, those people know the least about war, only as what they believe in their own agenda.

War cannot be fought in a way you give quarter to each other, every decision is snap and every decision almost always lead to death, just at the end of the day, when you are the one who are fighting, you just don't want that to be you, or your guy.

This type of people think there is a "Choice" for war, where why you can shoot someone in the hand or leg but you instead go for a doubt taps or why you go fight a war when the war they feel is unjust.

Question is, what my dad said is very true, which may I again remind the good folks here he REFUSED to fight in Nam, yet he went, personal agenda is one thing, serving your country is another, whatever political motivation you have, you are a citizen on this nation none the less, you serve the nation first, then ask question later. There is a time and a place for you to discuss what's the direction of your nation should be, or what war should they fight or pull out, and that time is called An ELECTION

And killing a fellow man require a strong conviction, it's not easy to do, I am not saying it got easier or what, but for those who have not experience killing, good on you, I hope you never have to.

And LOL on the bar bits, that actually happened to me after I went home from Iraq.

I was walking into a pub with a female companion after I came back from Iraq and some college dude bump into me and said "had you kill enough women and children over there?"

I did not say a god damn thing.......

Keep it up!
One is fighting but he does not know what's he's fighting for. You are chumps I think.

 

[Psychic]

Anyway, yeah, more US soldier died from killing themselves doing bad thing than enemy fire lol, How old are you? 4?

Talked about the recent Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts. The ratio of combat deaths to sucides is not respectable.

lol....So, tell me this.

When Pakistan go fight a war, will the soldier going to come back all shrine and gloomy??

?

When did I say that?
Why when we are talking about wars of aggression and opression which USA is fond of fighting, you and @Neptune bring in Pakistan in it? You know very well that neither Vietnam war was popular nor Iraq war was and you don't know yet why they weren't popular. You don't want to know why France refused to be a part of coalition forces in Iraq. That is the hell I am talking about. What is so difficult to understand in that?
Now the person arguing with me himself says that his granddad refused combat duties in Vietnam. That was what I was talking about.
I think that Jhungary's grand dad should take lessons of war from him because only he knows about wars and rest of the world is crazy even those drone operators who resigned from job because they thought that they were operessors and fighting for wrong cause.
Opposition to United States involvement in the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Opposition to the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
These all people were fools and ignorants and Mr Jhungary's and Mr Neptune are right. Okay I admit so let's finish it. You win, I lose. Happy now, I ended it earlier but you carried on with useless debate. This is my last post on this thread. I won't reply on this thread anymore.

Iraq war vets against Iraq war.

Ehren Watada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as I said earlier, let's agree to disagree.

 

[jhungary]

Talked about the recent Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts. The ratio of combat deaths to sucides is not respectable.

When did I say that?
Why when we are talking about wars of aggression and opression which USA is fond of fighting, you and @Neptune bring in Pakistan in it? You know very well that neither Vietnam war was popular nor Iraq war was and you don't know yet why they weren't popular. You don't want to know why France refused to be a part of coalition forces in Iraq. That is the hell I am talking about. What is so difficult to understand in that?
Now the person arguing with me himself says that his granddad refused combat duties in Vietnam. That was what I was talking about.
I think that Jhungary's grand dad should take lessons of war from him because only he knows about wars and rest of the world is crazy even those drone operators who resigned from job because they thought that they were operessors and fighting for wrong cause.
Opposition to United States involvement in the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Opposition to the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
These all people were fools and ignorants and Mr Jhungary's and Mr Neptune are right. Okay I admit so let's finish it. You win, I lose. Happy now, I ended it earlier but you carried on with useless debate. This is my last post on this thread. I won't reply on this thread anymore.

Iraq war vets against Iraq war.

Ehren Watada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as I said earlier, let's agree to disagree.

dude, you are a gem, really.

Talked about the recent Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts. The ratio of combat deaths to sucides is not respectable.

You said, there are more Iraqi and Afghanistan Vet committed suicide than died from Hostile fire, this is simply untrue

according to Department of Veteran Affair, 1868 vet committed suicide before 2010 and the KIA number of American dead are officially at 4809.

Then you start talking about soldier committed suicide because they do bad thing for an unjust war, where again, UNTRUE as to the primary reason for suicide is survivor guilt.

Detailed study confirms high suicide rate among recent veterans - LA Times

When did I say that?
Why when we are talking about wars of aggression and opression which USA is fond of fighting, you and @Neptune bring in Pakistan in it? You know very well that neither Vietnam war was popular nor Iraq war was and you don't know yet why they weren't popular. You don't want to know why France refused to be a part of coalition forces in Iraq. That is the hell I am talking about. What is so difficult to understand in that?

So, if France were not a part of a war, then the war is unjust?

Dude, whether or not a war is popular or a war is unpopular does not change the fact that war is a war, war is aimed to kill people, I don't really care whether or not China or French are part of the coalition, you see this as aggression or oppression, but does it have ANYTHING to do with you? And do you know how Iraqi feel about Iraq war?

Why French Refused to be a part of it? Why China refused to be a part of it? And does it matter in the end? No, what matter is how people involved feel about it, are you involved in the war?

If not, then what QUALIFIED you to judge if that war is unjust? based on what you see on TV?

I think that Jhungary's grand dad should take lessons of war from him because only he knows about wars and rest of the world is crazy even those drone operators who resigned from job because they thought that they were operessors and fighting for wrong cause.

I never say only I know about what wars looks like, but in this case, BETWEEN YOU AND ME, I am the one who MOST DEFINITELY KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO.

These all people were fools and ignorants and Mr Jhungary's and Mr Neptune are right. Okay I admit so let's finish it. You win, I lose. Happy now, I ended it earlier but you carried on with useless debate. This is my last post on this thread. I won't reply on this thread anymore.

Now you start to troll, Did I ever said I am the right, you are the wrong? From the beginning, I said we see thing differently and you see what you wanted to see, but not What it actually is, if you have to put it in to "Right" and "Wrong" debate, then you should probably NEVER post in this forum, this is a defence forum, and War, NO MATTER WHICH WAR, are both Right and Wrong, depending on where you stance at the issue.

 

[Neptune]

Well, from time to time, I had ran in to this type of person who have a quarrel with war just because it started by someone particular, as you can see in his post #44. But at the same time, those people know the least about war, only as what they believe in their own agenda.

War cannot be fought in a way you give quarter to each other, every decision is snap and every decision almost always lead to death, just at the end of the day, when you are the one who are fighting, you just don't want that to be you, or your guy.

This type of people think there is a "Choice" for war, where why you can shoot someone in the hand or leg but you instead go for a doubt taps or why you go fight a war when the war they feel is unjust.

Question is, what my dad said is very true, which may I again remind the good folks here he REFUSED to fight in Nam, yet he went, personal agenda is one thing, serving your country is another, whatever political motivation you have, you are a citizen on this nation none the less, you serve the nation first, then ask question later. There is a time and a place for you to discuss what's the direction of your nation should be, or what war should they fight or pull out, and that time is called An ELECTION

And killing a fellow man require a strong conviction, it's not easy to do, I am not saying it got easier or what, but for those who have not experience killing, good on you, I hope you never have to.

And LOL on the bar bits, that actually happened to me after I went home from Iraq.

I was walking into a pub with a female companion after I came back from Iraq and some college dude bump into me and said "had you kill enough women and children over there?"

I did not say a god damn thing.......

Correct..but seriously we gotta start using the ignore button otherwise this place is full of pacifist-FPS players.

 

[jhungary]

Correct..but seriously we gotta start using the ignore button otherwise this place is full of pacifist-FPS players.

lol FPS game.........

Had not play any lately........

 

[Neptune]

lol FPS game.........

Had not play any lately........

I ve fallen into it soon after when I was discharged for like a couple months. No wonder how people make such ideas and directives for those in the field.

 

[maxpayne]

Wow very informative ideological discussion going on here. That's why I like trolling some times bcz it open a lot more info. Well, wars are chosen by politicians but fought by military. And military guys do not question but perform tasks given to them and in war there are obviously deviations and war crimes which are mostly overlooked due to importance of objectives on sight. But there is a big question that why there are war crimes when oppressors are completely in control of situation. Why r inhumane acts on POW and most of times on captured civvies? Soldiers now have option and authority to be a human being. Can u pls shed some light here?? @mods sorry for little troll, topic is very hot here. ... @Neptune @jhungary

 

[jhungary]

I ve fallen into it soon after when I was discharged for like a couple months. No wonder how people make such ideas and directives for those in the field.

Well, I don't actually play at all, except when my niece came over and we will play some Battlefield 4 on PS4 with him. FPS is a good way to know what to expect, but it's the wrong way to respect the perspective.

Problem is, when the game developer keep making next gen gaming that focus on a "true" or "truer" experience, people will start thinking game can be as close to real war and suddenly, you have a bunch of "Military Expert" churning out and saying this and that (Alas Carlos Kopp, the self proclaim Aviation expert whom not even served in the Air force)

People start expecting FPS is what war looks like, but for those who knew, even Military Training cannot be respective to the true picture of the war, let alone some game?

But in the end, this will simply be the way as we, simply you cannot control people who know the square of jack shit to pretend they know stuff and for those fortunate (or unfortunate) one who actually seen combat, they will, be pissed by it no matter what.

 

[Armstrong]

Well, I don't actually play at all, except when my niece came over and we will play some Battlefield 4 on PS4 with him. FPS is a good way to know what to expect, but it's the wrong way to respect the perspective.

Problem is, when the game developer keep making next gen gaming that focus on a "true" or "truer" experience, people will start thinking game can be as close to real war and suddenly, you have a bunch of "Military Expert" churning out and saying this and that (Alas Carlos Kopp, the self proclaim Aviation expert whom not even served in the Air force)

People start expecting FPS is what war looks like, but for those who knew, even Military Training cannot be respective to the true picture of the war, let alone some game?

But in the end, this will simply be the way as we, simply you cannot control people who know the square of jack shit to pretend they know stuff and for those fortunate (or unfortunate) one who actually seen combat, they will, be pissed by it no matter what.

So are you telling me that my dream of being Pakistan's version of Rommel, Montgomery and Patton all rolled into one, is unfounded at best simply because playing Command and Conquer's Generals throughout my college just doesn't cut it ?