Vietnam visit: Anti-American exhibits abound, but people are friendly

[CardSharp]

Don't worry, he does it with everyone. Not only Chinese.

By the way, nice insightful post. It is always refreshing to engage myself in reading level headed views and balanced opinions.

Yeah thanks quoting it, I almost skipped over it. It was a very well written.

 

[gambit]

Well, if you have issues with whoever you claim to have upsetted you, you can report them or private message them about it. No use pretending to be a victim and flame the entire Chinese population.

I do not pretend to be said victim. I fight back and that pissed you Chinese boys off. And if someone or a group is going to make a public effort against me, I see no reason of responding in private.

I personally do not care what credentials you have, it means little to me if you do not speak common sense or has the ability to think logically before you speak. By being boastful of your knowledge and racist against Chinese you have put yourself right where you claim us Chinese are to be. With you continued insults and bigotry you are only begging for more insults. You have only yourself to blame, not us Chinese.

Of course you care whether you want to admit it or not. But nowhere here will you find anything about my education level or where I work or the likes so my credentials are irrelevant anyway. I let the contents of my arguments stands upon the facts and sources within. Something you Chinese boys absolutely hate because you have no relevant knowledges and experience in an arena where those things are helpful, hence you Chinese boys' hostility towards me from the start.

We don't care how communism is in other countries because it is just an ideology which can be changed. It is not something that is carved into stone. US democracy and democracy elsewhere are also differen't and a lot depends on where their governments want to take it. You are too naive and is still living in the cold war era, wake up to the smell of coffee already.

Hmmm...A young boy who never lived through the Cold War is calling a Cold War veteran, one who actually worked alongside genuine nuclear weapons, naive. Still...You are wrong and it is YOU who are naive. Of course ideological, social, and political contracts can be amended.

- Nation: A group of people who shares common bonds.
- State: A political body that establishes leadership for the nation.
- Country: A geographical locale.

Before the establishment of Israel, global Jewry was a 'nation' and it had no state. In fact, there are many 'stateless' nations to this day, such as the Gypsy or some American Indian tribes. Combine all three and you have a nation-state that administer an Earthly region. China, despite once being a victim of colonialism, is a bit more exceptional for being a 'civilizational nation-state'. A rare distinction share by another like Egypt and Great Britain but not (yet) the US. The word 'country' is a bit more flexible. Africa is a 'country' that hosts many 'nation-states'. Same for Europe, Asia, and the Americas.

The greater the flux, especially of the ideological, the greater the uncertainty among the people as to what binds them together as a politicized entity and sustains the nation-state. Among nation-states that shares the same ideological foundation, internal turmoil inside one country whose anger is from the people's dissatisfaction of their leadership is ALWAYS of great concern among member of the club. Because they share the same ideological foundation, the potential of the same type of internal turmoil increases in every country of that club. That was why Ho Chi Minh was so concerned about Yugoslavia when that European communist country experienced an ideological/political rift between Tito and the Kremlin. This is why economists in every capitalist countries shares knowledges with each other because their countries' economies operate upon the same ideological foundation. No problems are exactly alike but quite likely they have the same causes. This is basic Political Science. Were you asleep in class? And you call me 'naive'? So yes...China did cared about what went on in every communist country, especially the largest and most powerful one. If it failed, and it did, so would China.

The argument that you are trying to distract attention from here is that the US employs a 'double standard' when it comes to communism. The US 'forbid' communism outside its borders while allowing its competition inside. So now you are proven wrong given the fact that there were plenty of communist countries during the Cold War. The Soviet Union and China kept tabs on all of them, using persuasions and/or force to keep the clients in line, and morally and economically support each other throughout the Cold War years.

You get an epic 'F'.

I like the way you view the world. It's ever so entertaining. By your logics, we would have aided the former soviet union and prevent them from collapsing and spread communism into Pakistan too?

May be China should have.

You can have your say about China meddling in Vietnam and the rest of the world can have their say about Americans meddling in Vietnam. Fact is no body gives a toss about it anymore. US failed their objectives and China successfully fought of the imperialist French and Americans and liberated Vietnam. The rest was down to the Vietnamese government, China has no involvemnets in the way they wish to drive their country.

Not the rest of the world. How about China? What was China doing in Viet Nam? Spare everyone the 'liberate' line. It is stale enough I can us it as salad croutons. But the Vietnam War topic is not discarded. As long as it can serve today as a convenient and quich rhetorical weapon against the US, then it remain relevant and so are the previously unknown facts that continues to change people's minds about the war. Perceptions about China's role in the war is already changing. You are too naive to notice it. Even the North Koreans sent some troops for a couple years in North Viet Nam. If the US meddled in Viet Nam, so did China. If China tried to take the high road and said such meddlings were acts of 'liberation', then the same argument is applicable to the US as American meddlings were acts of defense against communism. I have no problems using the word 'meddle' for the US. Why are you Chinese boys so fearful of the same word for China? Wish I could play the chicken 'cluck-cluck' sound to show everyone what you really are.

As said before. We Chinese do not care about communism in other countries, we have better things to do with our time. We only care about how communism is in China. China wouldn't be the second largest economy if the ideology is a bad one. Clearly it is something that is working for us. I am sorry for the ailing economies in the once God almighty democratic countries though.

Now that is just plain stupid and inconsistent. China's economic rise IS NOT because of communism but because of the introduction of capitalism into a country heading towards a collapse. China wised up and changed just in time. But if what you say is true, then the communist world should have been the most prosperous and no collapse of the Soviet Union. No one prevented communist countries from trading with each other back then. The economic union of Europe could have been pioneered by the communist Eastern Europe. The Yugo would have displaced the Mercedes as the world's premier luxury automobile. Instead, what we saw was that communist countries could not export their crap to discriminating capitalist consumers, even the middle class, and had to foist those crap upon each other.

Why not? when you have the gall to, so can the others. Thank God for the freedom of speech?

The gall here does not come from any sort of 'freedoms' or 'rights', for certainly those things are inalienable. But the courage to speak about a topic should come from knowledge and experience. You severely lack both. You do know that, right? This forum's membership have a commercial airline pilot who was once an F-15 pilot. You certainly do have the 'freedom of speech' to challenge him on things of flying a large aircraft. But would anyone take you seriously? Nope, we would humor you the way an adult would tolerate a child or toy with a cute little puppy. Heck...Even a private licensee with only a little Cessna 152 for the weekends have more credibility than you when talking about flying. So for you, someone who never served in the military, to dismiss the significance of the failure of the 1968 Tet Offensive, is to have unwarranted gall, no matter how much rights and freedoms you may claim. If anything, such idiocy on your part make the Chinese armchair generals here look even more foolish.

Nope if America and France did not meddle in Vietnam then no war would have happened. China and Russia was there to fight off imperialism and to free Vietnam. It is saddening to see Vietnam suffer after the war. Americans destroyed their country, My Lai villages, raped childrens and did not offer them financial support to rebuild their country.

No...The propaganda no longer fly. It has been shredded or used as lining for the bird cages. China and the Soviets were in Viet Nam to spread communism. Not to 'liberate' anyone. And in the process of spreading communism, the communists shattered families, raped their share of children, murdered those who they do not like, lied even when they know they could not get away with those lies, and the list of atrocities goes on. No amount of young Chinese boys borned after the war and in safe Western countries like Canada or the UK can whitewash away the crimes of communism in Viet Nam when there are plenty of us who actually lived through the era and in-country to expose the truth.

It is telling that you persists in calling out China meddling in SE Asia but not America's own actions as equally 'meddling'. Coward.

Wrong...You are new here compared to me. In debunking other so-called Vietnam War 'experts' but who are ignoramuses like you Chinese boys here, I have called the Vietnam War a proxy war between the US and the Soviet Union, that South Viet Nam was a client state to the US, and that the US did 'meddle' in the region. So it has been you Chinese boys who are too cowardly to call China's meddling for what it is -- meddling.

Vietnam isn't calved up but is instead reunited and handed it back to them. Blame America for rolling with the wrong side. They had the opportunity to assist Ho and they had a good chance of spreading democracy there. They played the wrong cards and screwed up badly. Don't care about IQ, don't care about you whining. What matters is Vietnam is now still Vietnam, not calved up and renamed into Vietminko or the United states of Diemnam. I am sure Americans with IQ as high as yourself can work that one out.

What make you think that Ho was naturally the 'right side'? Simply the communist won? If that is the argument, we can say that China has been on the wrong side all this time because the Soviet Union collapsed and China was forced to change. Are you willing to state with no reservation that the non-communist nationalists who were slaughtered by the Viet Minh with French assist were also on the 'wrong side' as well? Do you have any credible evidences that those who challenged the Viet Minh wanted Viet Nam to be carved up? Answer this question for the readers: If YOU cannot persuade a person to your position, and if you have the power and the means to kill him, would you kill him if he does not submit to your will? Would you even threaten him? Yeah...Guess today's young communists are no different than yesterday's murderous crop. If the victim of their violence lose the fight because he does not want to submit to communism, the person must have been on the 'wrong side'. Pathetic.

Nope Ho-Sainteny isn't new to me, but it is to you, hence you are so happy about finding out about it and coming here to boast about it ever so excitedly.

Of course it is new to you, buddy...

Here...

What historical record? Since when did Ho Chin Minh gave away Vietnam?

No amount of spin can negate the fact that the Ho-Sainteny Agreement IS a pact that RETURNED Viet Nam back to France as a colonial possession. It was very much a business contract. If you knew about it, you would not have asked: What historical record? So for you to now claim that you are aware of it in trying to save face is very well how pathetic can YOU get when you cannot keep track of your own arguments and exposed yourself to be the fool you are. Busted...

Don't care about who is victim and who isn't. I guess only losers like to think victim of themselves. Typical sour grape mentality. We don't need to justify the ideology Vietnam takes, it makes no difference to China if they are or not.

Of course you do. Buddy...You already have too much emotional investment into a discussion that you now know you are woefully ignorant about, as shown above with the Ho-Sainteny Agreement gaff by you. Ho Chi Minh must be a victim, never an aggressor against his own people. You are no different than Western apologists for Cuba's Fidel Castro and hold a deceitful double standards for Cubans who opposed Castro. If it is about China, you claim supremacy simply because you are Chinese and your arguments are indisputable. But if someone who is actually a native and lived through the era before you were even a gleam in your father's eye, you are quick to dismiss their arguments as they are paid stooges of the US, or that they are traitors, or any other personal slanders you Chinese boys can think up.

This is something you need to get your head round to. Ho-Sainteny is just a distraction of the Phoenix Program. Ho-Sainteny Agreement is a strawman distraction to the Phoenix program which is a thing new to you.

That is funny...First...

Phoenix Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Phoenix Program (Vietnamese: Chiến dịch Phụng Hoàng, a word related to fenghuang, the Chinese phoenix) was a counterinsurgency program designed, coordinated, and executed by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), United States special operations forces, and the Republic of Vietnam's (South Vietnam) security apparatus during the Vietnam War.

The Program was designed to identify and "neutralize" (via infiltration, capture, terrorism, or assassination) the civilian infrastructure supporting the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (NLF or Viet Cong) insurgency. The program was in operation between 1967 and 1972, and similar efforts existed both before and after that period.

Between 1968 and 1972, Phoenix "neutralized" 81,740 people suspected of NLF membership, of whom 26,369 were killed. This was a large proportion of the NLF and, between 1969 and 1971, the program was quite successful in destroying NLF infrastructure in many important areas.

Second...Becareful when trying to save face with this cheap debating tactic when you asserted I know nothing about something. You never know what your opponent really know.

The Phoenix Program was hardly a 'secret' in South Viet Nam. As a child I knew about it because one uncle was a medic who treated ARVN Special Forces who infiltrated VC strongholds in South Viet Nam. I knew about it because I heard my grandparents, maternal and paternal, conversed about it among themselves. If anything...So many ordinary South Vietnamese knew about it that the hyperbolic phrase 'everyone knows' was hardly hyperbolic regarding the program. That is not so unusual. Take the current crisis in Japan, for example. Do you think you know better about the conditions in Japan than the Japanese who are living through that crisis? Given the atrocities committed by the VC in Hue during the 1968 Tet Offensive, most South Vietnamese supported the hunt and killing of VC fighters in South Viet Nam. What was called the 'Phoenix Program' -- in American English -- is just a formalization of what the Americans wanted for their own people whereas the South Vietnamese simply sent whoever they considered best fit for the job and not bothered with any 'program' name. So not only do I have the advantage of experience in living through that time, the double whammy for you includes a time gap of decades past and that make you nothing but a yapping pup to me about this subject.

But given the arrogance displayed by you despite the ignorance exposed, we should not be surprised if you would claim to know what is going in Japan better than the Japanese themselves.

Yes the Viets who lived through the war knew nothing but Americans like you do?

And did you really know about the Ho-Sainteny Agreement as your ignorance was exposed above? But yes...From my experience, in the US, France, UK, and finally in Viet Nam today, not many know about the pact. And when confronted with it, unlike you, they took the intellectually honest position and admitted they need to reassess their position regarding Ho Chi Minh. May be because they are like me who have genuine emotional investment in the Vietnam War subject, unlike you who are blundering through his own minefield of ignorance about the same subject.

I suppose they all think America is as white as snow even after they pulvarized their country and My laied their villages. We do not need to revise any of the history by the way.

Hah...The rhetorical convenience of My Lai versus the deliberately discarded atrocity of Hue. No...The Vietnamese on both sides know far better than you about American's actions during the war but they also know that for every recorded and publicized My Lai, the Vietnamese know the communists committed far worse and a hundred times over in unrecorded atrocities. It is a good thing for you that other intellectually dishonest people before you prepared your arguments for you. We anti-communists are admittedly at a disadvantage. But the facts are coming out and it is YOU who persists in revising history to suit your intellectually deceitful needs.

Americans know they were wrong and that they should never have participated in the war. Now to save face, they have to cowardly kill messenger Ho and blame everything on to him and France instead. Genius!

Your failure to keep track of your own arguments continue to amuse, if not amaze, me. If the Americans knew they were 'wrong' to get involved in Viet Nam, then Ho was wrong to appeal to the US for support to start...!!! But if you want to bring up Ho's letter to Truman, then tacitly you have consented to American involvement. But because you do not like the fact that the US was on the other side you have no choice but to argue that the US was...eerr...'wrong'...to get involved in Viet Nam.

Same as the Ho-Sainteny Agreement. It was a tactical decision made to liberate Vietnam after failing to secure help from America. The reason you keep calling China the co-starter of the Vietnam War is because you are trying (in vain) to distract attention from the truth: That America was the one who sided with the French who was in Vietnam long before the Chinese. Do you deny that fact? Be brave and state that denial.

What a 'tactical' decision...!!! To introduce a former colonial master back into one's house. And you call that 'liberation'?

I have no need to deny anything. I have stated long ago that the US had no choice but to side with France only AFTER the US was presented with the Ho-Sainteny Agreement. The Chinese boys here would be simple minded and gullible enough to buy that argument but the objective readers are not so easily deceived by you. They would know that in politics, nothing is self caused and if the US did sided with France, especially when the US initially argued against the return of colonialism in Indochina, there has to be either a compelling reason for a reversal or a situational change that make the reversal inevitable.

When Ho appealed to Truman for support, were Ho and the Viet Minh the only ones who cooperated with the American OSS during WW II? Were they the only ones who expressed their desire for a free Indochina? I challenge you to present any credible argument that the US was under obligations to accept or even respond that appeal because Ho was the only one or even the best candicate. Given your sorry knowledge so far......Ho was looking for acceptance and recognition in and from any possible corner and he need them as soon as possible to offset the rise of other nationalists who knew of Ho's affinity for communism and who would make their case to the US if given the chance. Even the Americans who knew Ho were divided about his intellectual ties to communism. With the Ho-Sainteny Agreement, Ho got what he needed, far from 'liberation' as you absurdly claimed above, but use France to slaughter his own people. Then after France was ejected, the US recognized Ho and the Viet Minh for what they are: backstabbers, murderers, and finally communists with China standing behind them, and with the intention of containing communism, the US had to nominally side with France. If you approve Ho's agreement with France as a valid 'tactical' decision, then accept the same for the Americans' as a valid 'tactical' decision.

Kid...Be brave enough to admit you do not know what the hell you are talking about, less on how to debate this subject, and even less on what the hell are you arguing for.

Sorry to disappoint you, China suffered a lot less years of hardship to reach where we are today, even surpassing many in the democratic west. If that is what you hate communism for, then be my guest, we don't care nor respect losers who does nothing to stand up again but instead resort to the annoyance of barking.
Communism is like a pin in the haystack for you guys. You don't know how it works, despise it, yet it works well for some but you cannot find the answer how. It baffles you how China can become this strong through Communism. You become so obssesed, envious and with no choice that you have to find a coward way to destroy it. I guess it is easier to destroy something than to learn how it works right? That is American IQ and methodology for you.

Spare everyone the crap that the US is 'envious' of China. Actually...The US snickered at China for having to admit the epic failure of communism enough to change to a capitalist economy. That is funny. When convenient sometimes, China is not a communist country, when convenient at other times, China is a communist country and got strong because of communism. But we should never say a communist is an intellectually honest and consistent person.

They must be kicking themselves when war failed to contain the Chinese communist and embargo failed to stop their economic growth? See communist can be a good thing. What matter is having the right leadership and the will power of the people to move forward together. We can do it, surely Vietnam can too. If they can't then clearly that is a leadership problem.

Wrong...Wars, large or small, in Asia or elsewhere, well publicized or secret, did contained communism and did it well. A dynamic society is a naturally changing and evolving society. A static society dies. Communist countries were effectively contained to be static and the entire communist world organism was slowly from within. That rot was made worse by bad leaderships who were reluctant to cede to common sense. The Soviet empire collapsed ignobly and spectacularly. The Chinese and Vietnamese communist governments were forced to change their countries lest they too dies ignobly and spectacularly. Your argument is an epic fail at defense.

Wrong France was in Vietnam long before China and Ho.

Har...That is a laugh. How far back into history do you want to take this? Are you going to deny that China meddled in Annam long before France took over the country? This is about recent history and recent usually mean within a couple generations, including yours and your parents'. This mean China is guilty of meddling in Viet Nam and co-start the Vietnam War after WW II.

Then American came and destroyed Vietnam instead of liberating and rebuilding it. All undisputed historical facts which is still taught in schools all over the world till this very day.

Wrong...The US did not 'destroyed' Viet Nam. The SVN/US alliance kept communism on hold for a few years. A collection of facts with their contexts distorted and taught does not make the truth.

Desperate...desperate...!!!Yes the Vietnamese really DO love their free country.

Indeed your arguments have been desperate so far. Desperate as in saving face after exposure of gross ignorance. You are confused between love and happiness. The Viets may love their country but that does not mean they are happy with it. If anything, adults recognize that unhappiness and dissatisfactions are excellent motivators for changes, be it in the scientific or political realms. We were tired of reading by candlelights so we invented electric lightbulbs. If we are unhappy with the current leader we chose new ones. So yes...For you to say that Japan should not be an example for the Vietnamese because Japan has no natural resources and live with earthquakes is truly a childish and desperate argument.

Only the traitors who left the people in Vietnam to die and join the ones who raped them and left them in decades of suffering and hardships would love Japan.

Respect for achievements and admiration for the achievers does not automatically equate to 'love'. What a stupid association since generals have no problems regarding respect and admiration for their adversaries. As for refugees being traitors? How about if we expand the context of refugees to include you and your parents? Assume you were borned in the UK. What happened? Why did your parents leave China? Any reason that motivated them to leave China is good cause to call your parents 'traitors'. Same for your grandparents if applicable. But if you are an emigre, why? Was China not good enough? Bad education? Bad food? Bad government? What? I dare say YOU are a traitor for leaving your fellow Chinese to suffer those bad things.

By your argument, the 'boat people' are also traitors. It is irrelevant if they succeeded in making it to US or any Western country. What is relevant, under your argument, is that they fled and left their fellow South Vietnamese to die under a communist inspired and led bloodbath. Do you have the balls to call the 'boat people' and probably your family traitors? Let us see...

So for you to have the audacity to justify America's actions in Vietnam and to live and die by the motto "There is Strong and there is ARMY STRONG!!!!" is truely a desperate and 'Low IQ' way of putting forward a convincing argument. It has gotten so bad that even the Vietnamese don't agree with what you are saying!

This is so nonsensical from someone who cannot admit, let alone explain and justify, China's own meddling in Viet Nam before he can criticize others.

Nope it is precisely your kind of cheap personal attacks that earned the individual American boy everyone's contempt.

Yes you are a bully and because of your unwarranted personal and racist attacks on Chinese, you earned our contempt.

I have no problems repeating myself on this for all to see. In the beginning, I have no reasons to be hostile to anyone, be he Pakistani or Chinese. I posted my challenges politely and supported my points with credible third party sources. Examples can be found over at sinodefence where I have the same handle as here. Not one of you Chinese boys have disputed that and that mean the readers can see for themselves who are the racists and started the hostility here -- you Chinese boys. You bullies who are a bunch of conscript rejects do not have the knowledge, the experience and the maturity to handle challenges where the topics are military and technically oriented. Now you have a taste of your own medicine and like all bullies turned cowards, you claim yourselves victims hoping to distract everyone from your past provocative behaviors.

 

[Obambam]

I do not pretend to be said victim. I fight back and that pissed you Chinese boys off. And if someone or a group is going to make a public effort against me, I see no reason of responding in private.

So now you are trying to publically justify your racist actions against all Chinese users here on PDF by falsely accussing everyone of grouping against you?
When it was you who is often caught generalizing against the Chinese population here and spewing crap at our faces for uncalled reasons? Give people a break already.

Of course you care whether you want to admit it or not. But nowhere here will you find anything about my education level or where I work or the likes so my credentials are irrelevant anyway. I let the contents of my arguments stands upon the facts and sources within. Something you Chinese boys absolutely hate because you have no relevant knowledges and experience in an arena where those things are helpful, hence you Chinese boys' hostility towards me from the start.

Do I? What you do and how you live your live has nothing to do with me - zilch.

We are here talking about the Vietnam War, you can question the way the history of Vietnam is told, but you cannot foist your lobsided view on to the masses. If you are indeed factual then your spectacular claim that Vietnamese wants to be Japanese wouldn't get slapped down hard by asianamerican. Mind you this is about the Vietnamese War, not about Japanese so I urge you to stay within the topic and not try and derail it. Just because you are racist against Chinese does not give you the right to act like an idiot and play victim all the time.

Hmmm...A young boy who never lived through the Cold War is calling a Cold War veteran, one who actually worked alongside genuine nuclear weapons, naive. Still...You are wrong and it is YOU who are naive. Of course ideological, social, and political contracts can be amended.

A young boy? now that is a funny thing to say to others who you have little to no idea about. I take that as a personal attack. Your consistant denigrating mannerism together with your foul demeaning choice of words does not make you anymore equitably amicable.
Your claims of being a cold war veteran and working alongside nuclear weapon has no significance to your arguments. If you are indeed a veteran then yes it would make you an naive one who is inept at keeping up with time and has its conscience blinded by childhood memories.

China did cared about what went on in every communist country, especially the largest and most powerful one. If it failed, and it did, so would China.

Well the Soviet Union failed but the country China still exist and they are still being referred to as 'Commies'. So please tell the readers, not me, if that is an American fail for portraying China as communist or is it a Gambit fail for trying too hard to put forward his own theories?

The argument that you are trying to distract attention from here is that the US employs a 'double standard' when it comes to communism. The US 'forbid' communism outside its borders while allowing its competition inside. So now you are proven wrong given the fact that there were plenty of communist countries during the Cold War.

You already epic failed on trying to relate communist countries outside the borders of the US to allowing communism to exist within the US. It bares no correlations other than to further prove that US employs a double standard and interferes with other countries ideologies through the use of military intervention other than its own.

The Soviet Union and China kept tabs on all of them, using persuasions and/or force to keep the clients in line, and morally and economically support each other throughout the Cold War years.

Just like how US and its NATO allies on keeping tabs on all of them democratic countries, using persuasions and/or force to keep the clients in line, and morally and economically support each other throughout the years? I see nothing wrong in that if US and its friends carry out the same proceedures themselves

May be China should have.

Good..so you are tacitly agreeing with me that China has no intentions of spreading communism on Vietnam or other countries? and that China has no control over how their communist counterparts govern its own country? Moreover, you have successfully contradicted yourself by self proclaiming that China and the Soviet Union supported each other and its clients economically and morally throughout the cold war years? If that was the case, then we wouldn't see the collapse of the Soviet Union and East Germany being sucked dry by the Soviets after WWII?

Also, the fact that China had no intention of spreading communism, supporting it nor kept tabs on other communist countries lead to the collpase of the Soviet Union. US was in friendly terms with China at the time right? If memories selved me right, Richard Nixon made friendly visits to China in the early 70's and, our great leader at the time, Deng Xiaoping also visited America? congratulations on destroying your own argument.

Not the rest of the world. How about China? What was China doing in Viet Nam?

Yes historians all around the world knows the history of Vietnam well enough to have it taught to everyone in schools acrosss the globe. They are able to view and convey history with high degree of parity. It is not the Gambit version of history that is taught, but a universally agreed and collective one. Your one sided opinions are best kept to yourself, we don't need you to foist your inaccurate history upon readers.

If the US meddled in Viet Nam, so did China. If China tried to take the high road and said such meddlings were acts of 'liberation', then the same argument is applicable to the US as American meddlings were acts of defense against communism. I have no problems using the word 'meddle' for the US. Why are you Chinese boys so fearful of the same word for China? Wish I could play the chicken 'cluck-cluck' sound to show everyone what you really are.

Good...so now you have agreed that the US meddled in Vietnam in support of its French South Vietnam ally. Yes America did indeed meddled with Vietnam by supporting a partitioned Vietnam which ultimately resulted in China particiapting in the war or 'meddling in Vietnam' as you'd put it.

Your innappropriate personal attack on me is unwarranted, and you have the gall to publically claim that all the Chinese users here group up to make personal attacks on you? Your idiosyncrasies together with your consistent long pompous speech says otherwise.

Now that is just plain stupid and inconsistent. China's economic rise IS NOT because of communism but because of the introduction of capitalism into a country heading towards a collapse. China wised up and changed just in time.

Oh... so Communist countries CAN adopt and incorporate other ideologies and move on to become one of the rishest country in the world? So are you telling the readers here that China is in fact no longer a true "Communist" country? I guess that proves the American fear of communism was indeed a foolish one.

Does your regards of communists being poor and sub human give you the rights to depict the entire Chinese population? By constantly alluding the public that we Chinese are Communists and verbal attacking us with the word "Commies", you are telling the readers here that you are one arrogant and racist bigot.

But if what you say is true, then the communist world should have been the most prosperous and no collapse of the Soviet Union. No one prevented communist countries from trading with each other back then. The economic union of Europe could have been pioneered by the communist Eastern Europe. The Yugo would have displaced the Mercedes as the world's premier luxury automobile. Instead, what we saw was that communist countries could not export their crap to discriminating capitalist consumers, even the middle class, and had to foist those crap upon each other.

By your logics, the West should be doing extremely well and we shouldn't be seeing a country, such as China, with heavy communist background bailing them out in 2008 after when they got screwed over by America right? Shouldn't it be the other way around? I thought "all communism turned all communist countries into economical hellholes? Shouldn't it be America "the world's number one economy" be helping them instead? why depend upon China? I guess China is actually not a TRUE communist country; they are rich, the idea of Communism can be altered to whatever way deems fit, therefore Communism can actually thrive and prosper (over taking their democratic counterparts) and that the Americans and the west are now looking rather foolish with their views on Communism?

The gall here does not come from any sort of 'freedoms' or 'rights', for certainly those things are inalienable. But the courage to speak about a topic should come from knowledge and experience. You severely lack both.

Let me remind you that you are making personal assumptions about history which took place at the time when you are probably still wearing diapers (if you are indeed from that time). You expect readers here to blindly agree to you yapping about the past and trying in vain to destort history? Let me remind you again that it is not your version of history that is being taught in schools internationally Mr. Gambit. You can have your warped take on the history of Vietnam and keep it to yourself and spare yourself further embarrassment.

I wonder if anyone actually takes you seriously as a person. Your warped vision of this world and grasp of reality is astounding, as demonstrated here:

Ever seen the old 'Planet of the Apes' series? At one point there was a history of the apes where their increased intelligence made them desirable house servants instead of mere curio items in zoos. That is how the Chinese see the Viets, the Cambodians, the Thais, or the Phis: We have slightly more intelligence than apes and with our opposable thumbs, we are more useful than dogs.

Here, you have cleverly ignored the American relationship with countries such as; Mexico, Cuba, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the NATO countries in the EU.

Are you too coward to admit that America don't see them the way you said China sees its neighbours?

Cultures and the peoples who sustain them evolves, but it is an evolution that should be willed from within, not imposed from without. You are asking for a cultural self destruction. I feel sorry for you, my young friend.

Then I feel sorry for you Mr. Gambit. The realities and truth is too much for you and you have failed to come to terms with what America had done to places like Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan and South Korea etc the and the list goes on..

By the way, care to explain the cultural destruction of Vietnam for the benefits of the readers here?

No...The propaganda no longer fly. It has been shredded or used as lining for the bird cages. China and the Soviets were in Viet Nam to spread communism. Not to 'liberate' anyone. And in the process of spreading communism, the communists shattered families, raped their share of children, murdered those who they do not like, lied even when they know they could not get away with those lies, and the list of atrocities goes on.

More Gambit's propaganda for the readers? Yes China helped liberate Vietnam and the part about them spreading is debatable as it was already present in Vietnam before the Chinese arrived and it wa spreaded by Ho Chi Minh when Vietnam became liberated. America on the other hand was supporting the idea of a partitioned Vietnam and was standing shoulder to shoulder with Diem, and together they committed all the attrocities mentioned on the above quote and worst and the list goes on..

America basically shot itself in the foot when they chose not to help Ho and use the chance to spread democracy into Vietnam.

Wrong...You are new here compared to me. In debunking other so-called Vietnam War 'experts' but who are ignoramuses like you Chinese boys here, I have called the Vietnam War a proxy war between the US and the Soviet Union, that South Viet Nam was a client state to the US, and that the US did 'meddle' in the region. So it has been you Chinese boys who are too cowardly to call China's meddling for what it is -- meddling.

Genius! So now you are the Vietnam war expert then? If that is the case then I hereby congratulate you on failing to mainstream your version of the history and everyone else who studied international history are all ignoramuses.

Oh..so now you are calling it a proxy war between America and the"Soviet Union"? and that America was there to fight the Soviet Union to prevent them from spreading Communism? Yet you are here (Trying in vain) to make belief that China was the one trying to spread Communism? Give us a break already.

What make you think that Ho was naturally the 'right side'? Simply the communist won? If that is the argument, we can say that China has been on the wrong side all this time because the Soviet Union collapsed and China was forced to change. Are you willing to state with no reservation that the non-communist nationalists who were slaughtered by the Viet Minh with French assist were also on the 'wrong side' as well? Do you have any credible evidences that those who challenged the Viet Minh wanted Viet Nam to be carved up? Answer this question for the readers: If YOU

Then what makes you think Ho wasn't naturally the 'right side'? just because of America's refusal to help him? Since you are now calling this a proximity war between America and the Soviet Union, then shouldn't you be saying that Soviet took the wrong side and spreaded communism in Vietnam? remember that China was only a client state of Soviet Union and that the Soviets were the core of Communism. I am not interested in debating about the non-communist nationalists who were slaughtered as Americans themselves caused many more attrocities in Vietnam slaughtering both non-communists and communists. So are you now saying that American think they are both wrong? if so whose side are they actually on?

In fact, I have a better answer for you - America wasn't on anyone's side. They were there for their own national interests and they see Vietnamese as sub human beings that they can test their napalms and agent orange on - Howzat?

if you have the power and the means to kill him, would you kill him if he does not submit to your will? Would you even threaten him? Yeah...Guess today's young communists are no different than yesterday's murderous crop. If the victim of their violence lose the fight because he does not want to submit to communism, the person must have been on the 'wrong side'. Pathetic.

Like how America and its allies killed the 'so-called' talibans, tyrants and Communists because they think they are the right side? and just because of the small nations unwillingness to bowl down to western imperialism means they are in the wrong side? thus makes them fine bombing targets? Now you're pathetic.

Of course it is new to you, buddy...

Here...

What historical record? Since when did Ho Chin Minh gave away Vietnam?

Desperate! Desperate.. you are clearly desperate to try and prove that I didn't know about the Ho-Sainteny Agreement when Vietnam War was part of the curriculum that was taught in schools, let alone I studied it decades back when I was still at in an English school. I trust you to know that England, France and America were all intertwined in this very part of history. I was merely asking you for "prove" that Ho Chi Min gave away Vietnam. Which you have yet to provide. If you know the Ho-Sainteny Agreement so well, then you would have picked up the part which states - "It recognized Vietnam as a "Free State" within the French Union, and permitted France to continue stationing troops in North Vietnam until 1951." I hope you are aware of the date 1951 as stated on the agreement. Please don't let your questionable experience and knowledge of the war coupled with your personal hatrid for us Chinese be the ingredients to your shoddy stories in order to prevaricate the readers.

No amount of spin can negate the fact that the Ho-Sainteny Agreement IS a pact that RETURNED Viet Nam back to France as a colonial possession. It was very much a business contract.

If you said that the agreement allowed the French to temporarily station troops in North of Vietnam to remove the KMT presence then I would agree with you UNRESERVEDLY. Sadly, this isn't the case. I give you credit for stating that it was a contract though! Within the contract there lies a clause, which clearly states:

"and permitted France to continue stationing troops in North Vietnam until 1951."

Now genius, care to explain why it even bothered with a date if he was handing the French back its colony? Answer for the readers why he didn't simply state Vietnam is a "Free State" within the French Union." and leave it at that?

how pathetic can YOU get when you cannot keep track of your own arguments and exposed yourself to be the fool you are. Busted...

Look who is the fool now?

Of course you do. Buddy...You already have too much emotional investment into a discussion that you now know you are woefully ignorant about.

First of all, don't call me buddy because I am not secondly it seems you get upset about the whole Vietnam issue more than anyone else here. The time you have invested in trying to portray China as the Villain, destort history and prevaricate the public with your stories based upon your questionable knowledge and experience is almost too overwhelming.

Becareful when trying to save face with this cheap debating tactic when you asserted I know nothing about something. You never know what your opponent really know.

Cheap debating tactics? What on earth are you talking about? LMAO
Sure, how about - Mr. Gambit is the master of cheap debates and his use of racial slurs are second to non?

The Phoenix Program was hardly a 'secret' in South Viet Nam.

Just like how the Ho-Sainteny Agreement is hardly a thing to gloat about in Western Europe.

the double whammy for you includes a time gap of decades past and that make you nothing but a yapping pup to me about this subject.

Sorry I had to cut down on your story as it contributes nothing to your arguments, but to call others a yapping pup? I take that as another cheap personal attack on me personally yet you run around with your tail stuck behind your hind legs telling everyone that Chinese here are attacking you? For someone who (apparently) is still sucking his thumb at the time to call all historians and Chinese ignoramuses has got to be the biggest joke of the century!

But given the arrogance displayed by you despite the ignorance exposed, we should not be surprised if you would claim to know what is going in Japan better than the Japanese themselves.

My arrogance? My ignorance exposed? We should not be surprised? Who's we? I claim to know what is going on in Japan?

How about:

You are asking for a cultural self destruction. I feel sorry for you, my young

friend.

LMAO. You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. What is Vietnamese culture? What is cultural self destructions? Can Chinese destroy Vietnamese culture? If so, how? Are Chinese going to force Vietnamese to speak Chinese? How can Vietnamese culture be destroy without the complacency from Vietnamese people? Vietnamese culture and China have a lot similarity base on geography and people. So what does a totally destroyed Vietnamese culture by Chinese look like?

Failed. Epic fail. I do not see the Japanese or the South Koreans clamoring to be like the Vietnamese, do you? On the other hand, I see plenty of Vietnamese wishing their corrupt, inept and despotic government would just go away so their country can be like either Japan or South Korea.

Sure:

Japan may be rich and developed country but they are not an independent country. Their constitution were written by the US - that is not very independent. They have a foreign military base on their soil - that is not very independent. If you want Vietnamese to follow the Japanese economical model, that is fine, but don't tell me you want to Vietnam to follow Japan politically. Japan is a neutered dog (no offense to Japanese) with no political power.

I take it that 'one American' individual here has clearly forgotten about how much racial slurs he threw around? He also happened to forget about how he ignorantly called all historians and Chinese people ignorant. It is he who also claimed that the Chinese will destroy the Vietnamese culture and that Vietnamese wants to be like the Japanese? Exposed? I will let the readers decide. My advice to you is - 'Don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house'.

And did you really know about the Ho-Sainteny Agreement as your ignorance was exposed above? But yes...From my experience, in the US, France, UK, and finally in Viet Nam today, not many know about the pact.

From your experience in the US maybe, but your self proclaimed experience of France, UK and Vietnam? With all due respect, regardless of how eluguent your speeches maybe, but to imply that you get to represent all of the Brits, French and Vietnamese of Vietnam? Let me remind the public that you left Vietnam since (supposedly) you was a kid, you have been converted and served in the very army which napalmed your parents' country. Heck you spent majority of your life detached from the other side of the world. Would anyone take you seriously? Nope, we would just humor you the way an adult would tolerate a child or toy with a cute little puppy.

Hah...The rhetorical convenience of My Lai versus the deliberately discarded atrocity of Hue. No...The Vietnamese on both sides know far better than you

That goes without saying. I am not here to say I am more knowledgeable than all the Vietnamese out there, that would be plain ignorance on my part. I take that goes for you too? Your memory of Vietnam must be quite perplexed since you left at a tender age. You (Supposedly) also served in the American army and you derived from South Vietnam? Therefore you are in no position to account for the entire Vietnamese race on its history. At best you can provide are your opinions, but to sum everything up yourself? That's the job for the readers.

about American's actions during the war but they also know that for every recorded and publicized My Lai, the Vietnamese know the communists committed far worse and a hundred times over in unrecorded atrocities. It is a good thing for you that other intellectually dishonest people before you prepared your arguments for you. We anti-communists are admittedly at a disadvantage. But the facts are coming out and it is YOU who persists in revising history to suit your intellectually deceitful needs.

Unrecorded atrocities? you can save that one to yourself. It is unrecorded and you have no prove to put on the table right? let alone say the Vietnamese know that the Ho's Communists party committed far worse when those words came out of your VERY "anti-communist" mouth? I am not denying the Hue massacre and if you want someone to blame, then blame it on Ho, it happened during his leadership afterall.

Your failure to keep track of your own arguments continue to amuse, if not amaze, me. If the Americans knew they were 'wrong' to get involved in Viet Nam, then Ho was wrong to appeal to the US for support to start...!!! But if you want to bring up Ho's letter to Truman, then tacitly you have consented to American involvement. But because you do not like the fact that the US was on the other side you have no choice but to argue that the US was...eerr...'wrong'...to get involved in Viet Nam.

"When WWII ended in 1945, next door to Indochina the Indonesians established their own government, independent of their colonial masters, the Dutch, while in Indochina the Vietnamese established their own government, independent of their colonial masters, the French. In both cases they met with armed attacks from their former colonial masters who even released Japanese prisoners of war to help them, prompting General Douglas MacAthur to say: If there is anything that makes my blood boil, it is to see our allies in Indochina and Java deploying Japanese troops to reconquer the little people we promised to liberate. It is the most ignoble kind of betrayal."

I take MacAthur to be more knowledgeable than you on matters of the war. He too made remarks about the situation in Vietnam and how America promised to help liberate. Instead turned its back on Ho. This was a tacit act of agreeing to Vietnam returning to France as a colony, it later became more apparent when they sided with the French and the south.

What a 'tactical' decision...!!! To introduce a former colonial master back into one's house. And you call that 'liberation'?

Read the above and quit your tap dancing.

I have no need to deny anything. I have stated long ago that the US had no choice but to side with France only AFTER the US was presented with the Ho-Sainteny Agreement.

No choice? You can whoop open your can of "False dichotomy". The fact American chose to side with the French was evident enough that said intention of liberating Vietnam was nothing but a false intent. Hell! if the reason that Ho Chi Minh was linked to the the communist was the reason for them turning its back, then what do you make of America siding with Communist China in the 70's? Amusing isn't it? Must be hard for you to justify America's interventions yet their irony goes on. If America can be brought to justice through the use of law, then Ho should have sued them for defamation of his good name!

The Chinese boys here would be simple minded and gullible enough to buy that argument but the objective readers are not so easily deceived by you.

Yet again, more racist and personal attacks on the Chinese. Your utter calumnies will surely make people want to take your side?
If you lack the ability to debate civily, then you shouldn't be here, let alone accuse us of attacking you because we lack the ability to debate with you? What a joke you are and I am sure fellow Americans and Vietnamese must be disappointed in you.

I challenge you to present any credible argument that the US was under obligations to accept or even respond that appeal because Ho was the only one or even the best candicate.

Sure - America, seeing France and Diem being the better candidates, are obligated in helping them instead? Afterall America did allow for the Ho-Sainteny to happen right? and they would rather help France and later Diem in their bids to colonize and conquer Vietnam. Mind you, Diem was also infamous for his crimes. Howzat?

Given your sorry knowledge so far......

I feel sorry for your extremist views and lobsided opinions. I am already doing better than you at debating issues of the war. I will give you credit for successfully gaining disapprovals from the Vietnamese as well as Chinese readers though.

Kid...Be brave enough to admit you do not know what the hell you are talking about, less on how to debate this subject, and even less on what the hell are you arguing for.

Again, more trolling and personally attacking me. Your Etiquette are lacking. If you have to resort to that kind of behaiviour then you are better off not reading and engaging in debates with the respectable people here on this forum.

Spare everyone the crap that the US is 'envious' of China. Actually...The US snickered at China for having to admit the epic failure of communism enough to change to a capitalist economy.

Fine. US is envious of Communism in China. They fail to workout whether they are Capitalists or Communists or actually both? In their heads they must be thinking, "oh wait..how can Communism work with Capitalism? Shoot! what shall we call them now? Oh f*ck it, lets just call them all Commies". Well I guess it is hard to understand the bit about Communism by name and Capitalism in nature right? The fact that China is doing so well and isn't a true Communist country hurts you doesn't it Mr Gambit?

Wrong...Wars, large or small, in Asia or elsewhere, well publicized or secret, did contained communism and did it well. A dynamic society is a naturally changing and evolving society. A static society dies. Communist countries were effectively contained to be static and the entire communist world organism was slowly from within. That rot was made worse by bad leaderships who were reluctant to cede to common sense. The Soviet empire collapsed ignobly and spectacularly. The Chinese and Vietnamese communist governments were forced to change their countries lest they too dies ignobly and spectacularly. Your argument is an epic fail at defense.

One - the fact that America failed in stopping Communism spreading over to Vietnam is FAIL.

Two - the fact that North Korea is still a Communist country is DOUBLE FAIL.

Three - the fact that America was all with Communist China in the 70's is TRIPPLE FAIL.

Four - accusing China of spreading Communism in Vietnam and then calling it a proximity war with the Soviets is QUADRUPLE FAIL.

Last but not least - America borrowing money from Communist China? EPIC FAIL

What is America thinking? Most importantly what the hell are you talking about? Stop tap dancing and beating around the bush Mr. Gambit. No matter how many tme you try in vain to gloss over the American Internaional image. It will not change one bit. America is still the old America that we all know of.

Har...That is a laugh. How far back into history do you want to take this? Are you going to deny that China meddled in Annam long before France took over the country?

Sure, lets take it to the point when France CULTURALLY DESTROYED Vietnam?

Wrong...The US did not 'destroyed' Viet Nam. The SVN/US alliance kept communism on hold for a few years. A collection of facts with their contexts distorted and taught does not make the truth.

Ok, then let me specify this:

France Culturally destroyed Vietnam and America economically destroyed Vietnam. Happy?

By the way do you have the slightest clue what you are talking about here? You are acting all Japanese over history now. If the history is good enough to be taught internationally, then it is good enough truth, or at least more legitimate.

Indeed your arguments have been desperate so far. Desperate as in saving face after exposure of gross ignorance. You are confused between love and happiness. The Viets may love their country but that does not mean they are happy with it. If anything, adults recognize that unhappiness and dissatisfactions are excellent motivators for changes, be it in the scientific or political realms. We were tired of reading by candlelights so we invented electric lightbulbs. If we are unhappy with the current leader we chose new ones. So yes...For you to say that Japan should not be an example for the Vietnamese because Japan has no natural resources and live with earthquakes is truly a childish and desperate argument.

Yes their love their country doesn't necessarily translate to them loving its government. If they are not happy with its government they should choose or at least have a rotating one (like the CPC). If they fail on both, then as said before, it is a leadership issue which needs to be addressed. Mind you Western democracy doesn't necessairly mean it will give the country more freedom. The democratic government itself can be a puppet just like the one in Japan. They say they are free but in reality they are not and for that the Vietnamese do not envy them. You may talk about their economical model, but to say they envy Japan, that is just another one of your groundless assumptions which was cleared up for you and everyone else by asianamerican. Look who is desperate now eh? Save your biased and lopsided opinons to yourself. Will you subject me to further verbal abuse and racial slurs Mr. Gambit?

Respect for achievements and admiration for the achievers does not automatically equate to 'love'. What a stupid association since generals have no problems regarding respect and admiration for their adversaries. As for refugees being traitors? How about if we expand the context of refugees to include you and your parents? Assume you were borned in the UK. What happened? Why did your parents leave China? Any reason that motivated them to leave China is good cause to call your parents 'traitors'. Same for your grandparents if applicable. But if you are an emigre, why? Was China not good enough? Bad education? Bad food? Bad government? What? I dare say YOU are a traitor for leaving your fellow Chinese to suffer those bad things.

Wow. Just Wow!! Asif bad mouthing me wasn't enough and now you have to bring my family into this? Firstly, It is entirely within my discretion whether I will tell you or not. Secondly please refrain from digressing from the topic. Lastly you'd be surprise if I tell you that my parents are actually still in China and that we cannot be more supportive of the Chinese government and its people. Heck I've done countless voluntary work, donated to orphanages and even helped out during the Sichuan crisis in China. I myself is still in the UK, I am a pragmatic person and I support both Commuism in China and to a lesser degree agrees with certain aspects of the Western Democracy, I guess I am just more level headed than you that's all. If you can call someone who supports the government of its motherland and occasionally send gifts to Chinese orphans a traitor, sure go ahead.

So for you to have the audacity to justify America's actions in Vietnam and to live and die by the motto "There is Strong and there is ARMY STRONG!!!!" is truely a desperate and 'Low IQ' way of putting forward a convincing argument. It has gotten so bad that even the Vietnamese don't agree with what you are saying!

This is so nonsensical from someone who cannot admit, let alone explain and justify, China's own meddling in Viet Nam before he can criticize others.

Coming from an "anti-communist" westernized American with little grasp of modern day politics and life? and in failing to justify America's actions you are now resorting to name calling, making racial slurs, making personal attacks and accussing others of ciritizing you. I know it hurts to hear the truth, but the facts remain. You can run away from it or you can challange it, but your desperate attempts is futile. The history will continue to be taught under the same format.

I have no problems repeating myself on this for all to see. In the beginning, I have no reasons to be hostile to anyone, be he Pakistani or Chinese. I posted my challenges politely and supported my points with credible third party sources. Examples can be found over at sinodefence where I have the same handle as here. Not one of you Chinese boys have disputed that and that mean the readers can see for themselves who are the racists and started the hostility here -- you Chinese boys. You bullies who are a bunch of conscript rejects do not have the knowledge, the experience and the maturity to handle challenges where the topics are military and technically oriented. Now you have a taste of your own medicine and like all bullies turned cowards, you claim yourselves victims hoping to distract everyone from your past provocative behaviors.

Save your stories. This is about now, not before or after. Respect needs to be earned not just given. As you have pointed out earlier that You are superior because you are a veteran on this forum and I am just a new comer. I and many Chinese be it now or in the future will fall prey to your generalization. Your attitudes towards all and every single Chinese are uncalled for. With attitudes of yours you want respect? You must be joking Mr. Gambit.

 

[Obambam]

Some interesting documentaries from Youtube. Sometimes it's easier to learn history through videos than trawling through walls of texts.

Phoenix Program

Christian terror in Vietnam

 

[Obambam]

Hồ Chí Minh - Portrait of a Human

 

[below_freezing]

Forget it brother. He has been brain damaged by Agent Orange and is incapable of high thinking. He is unable to talk back to his white slavemaster, so he takes his anger out on us, because we're across the ocean, while the FBI is tracking his movements.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Forget it brother. He has been brain damaged by Agent Orange and is incapable of high thinking. He is unable to talk back to his white slavemaster, so he takes his anger out on us, because we're across the ocean, while the FBI is tracking his movements.

Nah he was just born like that.

 

[below_freezing]

Nah he was just born like that.

Agent orange causes genetic damage in unborn children, including but not limited to neurological damage.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Agent orange causes genetic damage in unborn children, including but not limited to neurological damage.

But that would give him an excuse to be like that. Completely unacceptable. Don't try to pin it on some random chemical.

 

[below_freezing]

I don't know how people can be filled with such blind hatred. It is puzzling where this arrogance comes from.

 

[gambit]

But that would give him an excuse to be like that. Completely unacceptable. Don't try to pin it on some random chemical.

That 'Agent Orange' bit is nothing more than a cheap attack, not just against me, but against an entire people. Your pal does not have the intelligence, the knowledge, and the life experience to know how to debate, let alone debate on this subject. The 'Agent Orange' bit is meant to insult, to further support the belief that not only are the Viets are of 'inferior' Asian stock, they are made even more 'inferior' by way of a tactic of war. Your pal is too much of a coward to come out and say what he is -- racist -- and therefore has to express his racism through this roundabout way.

 

[Thoma Yosip]

I don't know how people can be filled with such blind hatred. It is puzzling where this arrogance comes from.

If you are looking for an example of unintended irony, this is an excellent one.

ܥܕܬܐ ܩܕܝܫܬܐ ܘܫܠܝܚܝܬܐ ܩܬܘܠܝܩܝ ܕܡܕܢܚܐ ܕܐܬܘܪ̈ܝܐ

 

[gambit]

If you are looking for an example of unintended irony, this is an excellent one.

ܥܕܬܐ ܩܕܝܫܬܐ ܘܫܠܝܚܝܬܐ ܩܬܘܠܝܩܝ ܕܡܕܢܚܐ ܕܐܬܘܪ̈ܝܐ

كنيسة المشرق الاشورية الرسولية الجاثلقية المقدسة

They ain't gots the smarts to recognize it when it occurs. This is even more funny coming from a group that believe they are of 'superior' Asian stock with their made up 'high IQ statistics' argument.

 

[Dalai Lama]

If you are looking for an example of unintended irony, this is an excellent one.

ܥܕܬܐ ܩܕܝܫܬܐ ܘܫܠܝܚܝܬܐ ܩܬܘܠܝܩܝ ܕܡܕܢܚܐ ܕܐܬܘܪ̈ܝܐ

كنيسة المشرق الاشورية الرسولية الجاثلقية المقدسة

"Assyrian Church of the East Holy Apostolic Gatgayp"?

 

[Thoma Yosip]

"Assyrian Church of the East Holy Apostolic Gatgayp"?

My apologyies. I did not look at it before posting. It should translate to read the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East. I may need to update the Arabic and Syriac-Aramaic scripts on my system.