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Vietnam visit: Anti-American exhibits abound, but people are friendly

No...You cannot and you never will. The only thing you can do is post reams after reams of documents that while no one dispute in theory, the common sense that you casually dismissed is glaring in your face. It was true then: That upon the official surrender proclamation by the Emperor, Japanese garrisons were instructed to either maintain order over their areas of responsibilities and/or to provide support to any competent agent appointed by the Allies.

Chapter 2: Troop Movements, Dispositions, and Locations

I will and I will continue to do so.

JimBechtel.com
When WWII ended in 1945, next door to Indochina the Indonesians established their own government, independent of their colonial masters, the Dutch, while in Indochina the Vietnamese established their own government, independent of their colonial masters, the French. In both cases they met with armed attacks from their former colonial masters who even released Japanese prisoners of war to help them, prompting General Douglas MacAthur to say: If there is anything that makes my blood boil, it is to see our allies in Indochina and Java deploying Japanese troops to reconquer the little people we promised to liberate. It is the most ignoble kind of betrayal.

Even MacAthur, who was without doubt, an important person to have ever graced the American history admitted to American betrayal of Vietnam.

By the way, you are suppose to discuss based upon available sources. Not to convey basing upon your own theories.

If you could provide such sources to the contrary, you would have done it by now. Common sense and practicality in military affairs are irrelevant. If there is a God of War, I sincerely hope and pray to him that the Chinese military is filled with 'thinkers' like you.

If there is a God of War, I sincerely hope that it he will sign my copy of "God of War 3" so I can sell it on ebay.
Don't worry. Chinese military thinkers are much more suffisticated than you and I. They defeated America and liberated Vietnam from French and Diem rule.

This is about a specific topic in military affairs. You were proven wrong. Spectacularly wrong.

This part of the forum is about "World Affairs" and it is much diverse than you think it is. It is NOT specifically about military affair. If you was to run Vietnam, gosh I beg and pray that you will not collapse its economy.
 
For France, there can be no justifications for trying to reclaim Indochina and my indictment of France is on record as to the true causes of the Vietnam War:

- Ho Chi Minh
- France
- China

As for the true causes of the Vietnam war:

- France
- Bao Dai
- Ngo Dinh Diem
- America

For the US, there is no justification other than the explanation that the US wanted to control the growth of communism.

If the CPUSA can book a convention hall in NYC why not let Ho Chi Minh book his in Vietnam?

But as usual you are dodging the issue. If you support North Viet Nam as legitimate representative of Viet Nam, what are your reasons to declare South Viet Nam as illegitimate? In order to do that, you have to declare Ho's rivals in North Viet Nam as illegitimate as well. Are you willing to do that? Or are you going to be a coward and bail?

Lets straighten your head a little. Firstly I did not support the North, Mao did! Secondly I don't agree with the Potsdam Agreement to seperate Vietnam into two, therefore, to me, neither of them are legitimate.

Now you tell me about why you think it was wrong for Ho to kill off his rivals but shieed away the crimes that Diem had committed? I thought you like to discuss things fairly and in a levelheaded manner? Where's the fairness for Ho here? So are you going to talk more about Diem's crimes so we can see the bigger picture or are you going to be a coward and bail out of those questions?

Bao Dai? :lol: News for you, pal. Bao Dai abdicated while he was in North Viet Nam. Then Ho asked Bao Dai to remain as a 'senior advisor'. Bao Dai accepted. A few years later after Bao Dai got disgusted with how the Viet Minh mistreated the peasantry, he quit and moved south. So here we have more education for you about the relationships between the three men who mattered in the Vietnam War: Ho Chi Minh had Bao Dai as an advisor. Ho Chi Minh imprisoned Diem. And later fought a war against both. Still think Bao Dai and Diem were chosen from out of nowhere?

oops, I meant Diem! :hitwall:
Anyways, it is a known fact that Diem was hugely unpopular and mistreated the peasantry.

The Diem regime became increasingly unpopular. Diem was a Catholic, and most Vietnamese were Buddhists; Diem was close to the landlords, and this was a country of peasants. His pretenses at land reform left things basically as they were. He replaced locally selected provincial chiefs with his own men, appointed in Saigon; by 1962, 88 percent of these provincial chiefs were military men. Diem imprisoned more and more Vietnamese who criticized the regime for corruption, for lack of reform.
Opposition grew quickly in the countryside, where Diem's apparatus could not reach well, and around 1958 guerrilla activities began against the regime. The Communist regime in Hanoi gave aid, encouragement, and sent people south, most of them southerners who had gone north after the Geneva accords to support the guerrilla movement. In 1960, the National Liberation Front was formed in the South. It united the various strands of opposition to the regime; its strength came from South Vietnamese peasants, who saw it as a way of changing their daily lives.

I can continue to embarrass you about this subject forever.
You can only continue to embarrass you more on this subject as we go along. Not only have I been debunking your theories and invalid claims. It appears that you know very little about Diem, or should I say, too coward to admit that he was just as ruthless as Ho? Ho on the other hand did a good thing in reunification of Vietnam which would have not happened under Diem's rule.

The US did not have the power to 'suspend' any election. Diem already had a reputation as an independent, even among his American supporters. So if Ho was so popular, why were there no uprising by the South Vietnamese during the 1968 Tet Offensive? Too difficult to answer? Or do you need more time to research and interpret Chinese propaganda?

The CIA ran the clandestine Phoenix Program to murder politicians, journalists and others, who opposed the politicians being supported by the US. The people doing the killing were specially selected American servicemen. It was one of the worst kept secrets of American involvement in Vietnam.
The US along with their puppet Diem suspended the free, democratic elections because they knew that the candidate they supported wouldn't win.
Isn't it an American ideal to encourage national self determinism and democracy the will of the people? If the will of the people is Ho Chi Minh, why would the USA try to stop them? Maybe you can elaborate on why the vote was suspended and how?

Good...Then this admission invalidate ALL that you have argued so far because it made the war waged by North Viet Nam illegal.

Are you implying that it was correct to have Vietnam divided up into two? It is hard to believe that a Vietnamese that you say you are, is happy to see it's home divided up into two. By the way, since US think military think tanks are so superior, what makes people like them and yourself so pro Diem? It seems that you are too reluctant and shy to come out and talk about the crimes which Diem inflicted upon its people. Was his regime any better than the one of Ho's? ;)


Failed. Epic fail. I do not see the Japanese or the South Koreans clamoring to be like the Vietnamese, do you? On the other hand, I see plenty of Vietnamese wishing their corrupt, inept and despotic government would just go away so their country can be like either Japan or South Korea.

LOL..talk about epic fail. You clearly failed to understand the point that I was trying to make. I was suggesting about the opinions of the Vietnamese people in the FUTURE could change. I wasn't talking about what people's opinion is now. Can't you see that the Vietnamese economy is already improving? Whilst Japan is in decline? I am pretty sure the present Vietnamese government is more productive and efficient than the ones from the Diem's era. This can only get better over time. In fact it may get to the point that Americans will one day rather be living in China and Vietnam than in its own country. I see the FED's and Obamacare's for you. :lol:

Good...Then label me 'democrat' because nowhere have I called myself 'communist' no matter what the Vietnamese government call itself. If you believe that I am supposed to call myself a 'communist' that would make you a racist because you believe that skin color determine political ideology. Nice work.

If you go by your philosophical way of thinking, Chinese people are commies, then it is ok for everyone to call you a commie too. How can I be racist calling you a commie when your skin tone, hair colour is the same as mine? It is not racist for you to call Chinese communist, then it is ok to call Vietnamese such as yourself a communist too. It makes sense doesn't it my Vietnamese Communist brother.
 
The person who claimed to be the first victim is nobody but yourself. The arguments and wild claims made by yourself has been debunked time and time again, to the point that you can no longer sufficiently backup your arguments you resorted to name calling and the belittling of others. However, I do not mind, since what you are calling us can be used on yourself just the same which makes it even more fun.
I have yet to see any discussions on technical matter that you Chinese boys refrain from making cheap personal attacks. I may not have perfect English, provide the best illustrations, or responded timely. But when it came to keeping on point, everyone here knows I focused on the subject, support my arguments, and will respond to any queries. Until you Chinese boys came along and started throwing hissy fits every time a Chinese claim is challenged.

Who cares about what Roosevelt thinks? The fact that it will not be a peaceful resolve makes the outcome fairly predictable. Ho's popular was on the rise and was seeked independence but French on the other hand will not let Vietnam go. This alone is enough to put what Roosevelt said out of the window. Yeah sure asif the Americans did not play a role in Vietnam. In fact they were there for 20 years until the death toll and political pressure at home was too much for them to bear.
Objective people cares. All this time the typical line is that the US wanted to return colonialism back to Indochina. Now we know that is not the truth. The US wanted independence for Indochina. You Chinese boys wanted to hide that truth.

The US did not resist, not at all. In fact they were in favour of French taking over again.
Wrong...Let me post this again...

Pentagon Papers, Gravel Edition, Summary and Chapter I
I saw Halifax last week and told him quite frankly that it was perfectly true that I had, for over a year, expressed the opinion that Indo-China should not go back to France but that it should be administered by an international trusteeship. France has had the country-thirty million inhabitants for nearly one hundred years, and the people are worse off than they were at the beginning.

As a matter of interest, I am wholeheartedly supported in this view by Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and by Marshal Stalin. I see no reason to play in with the British Foreign Office in this matter. The only reason they seem to oppose it is that they fear the effect it would have on their own possessions and those of the Dutch. They have never liked the idea of trusteeship because it is, in some instances, aimed at future independence. This is true in the case of Indo-China.

Each case must, of course, stand on its own feet, but the case of IndoChina is perfectly clear. France has milked it for one hundred years. The people of Indo-China are entitled to something better than that.
You cannot hide the truth. China meddled in Viet Nam and helped prevented that process and co-started the Vietnam War.

It was Bao Dai who sold Vietnam to the French by siding with them.
Bao Dai abdicated and served as Ho's 'senior advisor'. Yes...He eventually accepted France's offer to serve as a puppet head of state but by that time events in Viet Nam rendered that association irrelevant, except to serve as a convenient distractor today.

Ho was a freedom fighter and fought for the freedom of Vietnam, and through the eagerness of him and Vietnam's respectable people, they triumphed.
Did you copied/pasted that from somewhere? That sounded so trite. So canned.

Of course it is old news, since I am only picking up pieces of doceumented history and posting them up on to the forum. I don't have to make up something new in order for it to be accepted do I? :what:
So what if Diem got imprisoned? moreover how did he get out and ended up in the US should be the question. Yes perhaps you should tell us why the US supported him and Bao Dai.
How did Diem got out? :lol: The man is clueless of the subject and here he is asking questions that reveals that cluelessness...:lol:

Diem did not 'got out'. Ho ORDERED Diem's release from prison.

Of course he was less popular. That was dead and buried a long time ago.
Wrong...I said Diem was NO LESS popular than Ho in North Viet Nam. Else Ho would have Diem killed the same way Diem's brother was killed. Let me guess...You did not know Diem's brother was killed by the Viet Minh. But nooooo...You are working hard to put yourself as a Vietnam War 'expert'...:rolleyes:

"Would rather" has zero value in reality. You even said it yourself. It is not required for the US to intevene with UK's conolonial affairs with Argentina and the Falklands. Same goes to France with its colony. Which begs the question why the US allowed the Brits to enter Saigon to buy the French military time
to have its mens armed and ready for Vietnam?
The question is deliberately loaded and misleading. The Brits was not 'allowed' by the US. In the aftermath of WW II, a competent Allied power was needed to take authority and the Brits were the most convenient at that time. You are trying hard to make this into some kind of conspiracy here. No surprise.

China see Ho as the representative of North Vietnam and helped him claim independence, just like the Americans did with Bao Dai and the way Americans supported Bao's regime was no differen't. Initially it was about assisting French secure its colony but in the end it turned into a struggle against communism. Which often makes people wonder what rights does Americans have in trying to replace communism with their own version of democracy?
China had no good cause to meddle in Vietnam in the first place. You cannot deny the truth that China was in Viet Nam long before the US was. The American support for South Viet Nam was in response to China's meddling and you are trying to rewrite history. America's support was mainly for Diem, it was France who recruited Bao Dai and made him a figurehead of state. Funny that in the Ho-Sainteny Agreement, Ho and the Viet Minh's recognition by France was good but Bao Dai's recognition by the same is bad. Consistency by you pretend Vietnam War 'experts' was never there.

By the way it doesn't matter who has rivals or not. Politics are full of them and I have not denied the fact that Ho and Diem both have its own rivals. Just like how any political parties would.
Of course it does matter. Rivals does not need to be violent about it. Rivals give the people a chance to see differences in potential leaders. But what you are terrified of is admitting that you approve of the Viet Minh's slaughter of rival Vietnamese nationalists.

I don't care what the west thinks. All I know is we are as "commie" as you are, oh wait, your people are actually more commie than us.
By the way Chinese commie are doing better economically than the US are right now. Don't see China depending on Soviets financial lending as much as America is depending on the Chinese do we? It is even getting to the point where some Americans are starting to think that China is actually the richest country now in the world!
Yeah...I see you swallowed that argument.

If it weren't for the US meddling, then perhaps countries such as Cuba and north Korea wouldn't have to suffer so much as get to bare fruit and enjoy it the way Chinese are enjoying it now? Mind you, China don't stick its nose into other people's internal affair the way the US did, which they are also widely known for. Take a look at egypt for example, why does it matter to the US? US can't even look after itself and they are trying to stablize the situation there? I smell oil money.
You mean China did make any statement regarding the ME? Never? As for NKR and Cuba, those are strawmen. There is nothing to prevent China from business with either and both. In fact...

CBC News In Depth: Cuba
Trade between Canada and Cuba totals almost $1 billion. About 22 per cent of Cuban exports go to Canada, second only to the Netherlands with about 24 per cent. Canada ranks fifth in exports to Cuba, behind Spain, Venezuela, the U.S. and China.
Canada is a NORAD partner and yet Canada defied the US and traded with Cuba. And if the Netherlands also traded with Cuba, who else in Europe do you think also trade with Cuba? Can we say that you got suckered by the standard Chinese propaganda line about US and Cuba? Yes, we can.

Keep denying and running circles.
Am not denying anything. Am exposing Chinese lies about Viet Nam. Just like how I expose Chinese lies about Cuba.

How did Vietnam split into two seperate entities? through meddling of the west? or simply because Vietnamese thinks it is nice to have its country split into two?
How about a large part of the Vietnamese wanted nothing to do with Chinese inspired and instigated communism?

Don't we all hear about how North Koreans and the South wanted reunification? They are still nowhere near claiming independence for their country as a whole. The way I see it is they are only partially independent right now. Vietnam would be the same if it weren't for Ho and China's persistent. You can hate them for it, but people of the future will look back and be greatful for its history of independence. It's funny how the west are going ape s*hit sourgrapes over it, get over it already
The charge that South Korea and Japan are 'partially independent' is nothing more than rhetorical and has no basis in reality. Same for Viet Nam IF communism was not introduced and imposed. Currently, most of the Vietnamese are silently hating the government for its corruption, ineptitude, and despotic nature that is preventing them from prosperity. Yes...Viet Nam is improving, but thanks to people like me, and there are plenty of us, the people realized long ago that communism was the ball and chain that has been holding them back. No different than when their ancestors were under French colonialism thanks to China.

Don't really care if it was right or wrong. I only care about the fact that Vietnam is a fully independent country, not two seperate entities.
Good...Another confirmation from the Chinese boys that the end justified the means.

It is not new to the world that Americans are good with its smeer campaign and label everything that it doesn't like as "propaganda".
You mean China has no propaganda dept?

You asked for directions on how to get to Ho Chi minh by driving and then the whole bus erupted in laughter? Boy you must be speaking very loud!
How pathetic is that when you cannot even understand the context...

Yes you can call it both and there's is nothing wrong with that. Just like how Beijing can be referred to as Peking. You can call it whichever one you like.
Another pathetic attempt to save a failed argument. Peking versus Beijing is not the same as Ho Chi Minh City versus Sai Gon.

Of course they don't hate their government, it's government isn't the monster the west believed it to be.
Wrong...They do. The Vietnamese government was so corrupt and inept that the South Koreans and the Japanese nearly pulled their investments out. Let me guess...You did not know that South Korea and Japan defied US trade embargo and entered Viet Nam.

Yes I am sure you met him, got a picture taken and signed by him in person too

I am sure people will have no trouble locating sources of American soldiers regretting its participtions. Many of them went into wars thinking it was the right thing to do until they realized that they actually had little to no reasons to be there. Here are some of them:
They were not VC, were they?

I met the William Calley by accident too after his public appology. I commended him for his bravery and told him that he did the right thing and he gave me an Omega watch as a gift. It was from his Jewllery shop.
Calley was a murderer.

I would handle it the way Deim did via rigging votes, false imprisonment and killing off rivalries. Sorry, I was just teasing!
That is fine. Just revealing your true commie nature.

You appear to know very little about Diem and Ho yourself. All you seem to know is Ho is a traitor, he sided with the French and killed its rivals. Little did you know that the "popular" Diem you was talking about, has committed crimes of the same (if not worse). I don't care about their personal love affairs. That is not my concern. I am more concerned about someone who knows little about the history of Vietnam and is finding it hard to convey history convincingly.
I have demonstrated I know far more about the Vietnam War than ALL of you Chinese boys combined. If Diem was a 'traitor' so was Ho via the Ho-Sainteny Agreement. It is clear by now that factoid is highly uncomfortable to you. You do not know this, did not know that, you basically know nothing about the subject.
 
I will and I will continue to do so.
You may try but you will and have failed. The issue is about common sense and I showed you a US source to support my argument. Here is is again...

Chapter 2: Troop Movements, Dispositions, and Locations
The order called upon the Imperial General Headquarters "...by direction of the Emperor and pursuant to the surrender to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers...", to order the Japanese forces to surrender themselves and their arms to designated representatives of SCAP in various parts of the Pacific Theater and China.20 The Japanese police force was initially exempted from the general disarmament and was ordered to remain on duty for the preservation of law and order, for which it would be held responsible.
It does not matter if the force was an official constabulatory or not. What mattered was that upon the official surrender, order still needed to be maintained and many Japanese garrisons were instructed to do so. You objected to a point in complete ignorance.

Even MacAthur, who was without doubt, an important person to have ever graced the American history admitted to American betrayal of Vietnam.
Fine. But that did not meant there was malice from the US. In hindsight, of course the US should have been more forceful despite the Ho-Sainteny Agreement. But politically speaking, the Americans' hands were tied by Ho and France.

By the way, you are suppose to discuss based upon available sources. Not to convey basing upon your own theories.
And so far I have been doing far better than you have. I taught you a few new things in the process as well.

If there is a God of War, I sincerely hope that it he will sign my copy of "God of War 3" so I can sell it on ebay.
Don't worry. Chinese military thinkers are much more suffisticated than you and I. They defeated America and liberated Vietnam from French and Diem rule.
More likely they let Vo Nguyen Giap wasted his troops. Giap never had a victory against the French and later the US in any set piece battles he fancied himself capable. Giap was at best a guerrilla fighter. His Chinese advisors were nearly booted off the fight at Dien Bien Phu, did you know that? Of course not. :lol:

This part of the forum is about "World Affairs" and it is much diverse than you think it is. It is NOT specifically about military affair. If you was to run Vietnam, gosh I beg and pray that you will not collapse its economy.
If I run Viet Nam, the country would be owning China...:lol:
 
Negative. Like I said before, I had no reasons to be hostile to anyone, be he Chinese or Pakistani or Indian. It was only after I began to challenged you Chinese boys and remained on point, the lot of you began to pile on the cheap personal attacks for no reasons other than they could not refute my arguments. Once they found out I was Viet, you boys got even more personal. Looks like we know who are the true psycho basket cases -- plural -- here.

Sure we will attack you with RMB instead, surely they worth more than your USD.
 
As for the true causes of the Vietnam war:

- France
- Bao Dai
- Ngo Dinh Diem
- America
Nope, it was and will always be:

- Ho Chi Minh
- France
- CHINA

If the CPUSA can book a convention hall in NYC why not let Ho Chi Minh book his in Vietnam?
What a pathetic argument...:cry:...I cannot believe that you could be that bad...Booo...!!! You argued that communism is somehow 'forbidden' in America. And when you are presented with evidence that made you look the fool, you came back with this...???

Lets straighten your head a little. Firstly I did not support the North, Mao did! Secondly I don't agree with the Potsdam Agreement to seperate Vietnam into two, therefore, to me, neither of them are legitimate.
Spare me...:rolleyes:...As long as you bought that line about China helped 'liberated' Viet Nam nonsense, you supported the North.

Now you tell me about why you think it was wrong for Ho to kill off his rivals but shieed away the crimes that Diem had committed? I thought you like to discuss things fairly and in a levelheaded manner? Where's the fairness for Ho here? So are you going to talk more about Diem's crimes so we can see the bigger picture or are you going to be a coward and bail out of those questions?
I never shied away from Diem and what he did in South Viet Nam. I said many times before that he was no paragon of democratic virtues. But this is not about Diem but about China's role in co-starting the Vietnam War.

oops, I meant Diem! :hitwall:
Anyways, it is a known fact that Diem was hugely unpopular and mistreated the peasantry.
And yet no one sided with the North Vietnamese during the 1968 Tet Offensive. Funny how you consistently avoided this conundrum.

You can only continue to embarrass you more on this subject as we go along. Not only have I been debunking your theories and invalid claims. It appears that you know very little about Diem, or should I say, too coward to admit that he was just as ruthless as Ho? Ho on the other hand did a good thing in reunification of Vietnam which would have not happened under Diem's rule.
Bullsh!T...You have 'debunked' nothing. The best thing that happened to your side of the argument is the available opinions by authors that were against the Vietnam War. But that hardly qualified as 'debunking' anything since they revealed nothing new. Whereas the Ho-Sainteny Agreement was something new to YOU and just about everyone here. That put the context of the war in a new light.

The CIA ran the clandestine Phoenix Program to murder politicians, journalists and others, who opposed the politicians being supported by the US. The people doing the killing were specially selected American servicemen. It was one of the worst kept secrets of American involvement in Vietnam.
The US along with their puppet Diem suspended the free, democratic elections because they knew that the candidate they supported wouldn't win.
Isn't it an American ideal to encourage national self determinism and democracy the will of the people? If the will of the people is Ho Chi Minh, why would the USA try to stop them? Maybe you can elaborate on why the vote was suspended and how?
The will of the South Vietnamese was not for Ho Chi Minh. As for the Phoenix Program, like I said, this is just another convenient item for you to distract from the real issue: China. You really think the NVA/VC do not have a Phoenix equivalent? Be careful in answering that question...:lol:...You have been embarrassed quite a few times already regarding knowledge.

Are you implying that it was correct to have Vietnam divided up into two? It is hard to believe that a Vietnamese that you say you are, is happy to see it's home divided up into two.
Yes...Viet Nam should have been left partitioned. The world would have another example to see the failures of communism. And that is a feeble insult. Very weak.

By the way, since US think military think tanks are so superior, what makes people like them and yourself so pro Diem? It seems that you are too reluctant and shy to come out and talk about the crimes which Diem inflicted upon its people. Was his regime any better than the one of Ho's?
The issue is not about Diem but about China's role in starting the Vietnam War.

LOL..talk about epic fail. You clearly failed to understand the point that I was trying to make. I was suggesting about the opinions of the Vietnamese people in the FUTURE could change. I wasn't talking about what people's opinion is now. Can't you see that the Vietnamese economy is already improving? Whilst Japan is in decline? I am pretty sure the present Vietnamese government is more productive and efficient than the ones from the Diem's era. This can only get better over time. In fact it may get to the point that Americans will one day rather be living in China and Vietnam than in its own country. I see the FED's and Obamacare's for you.
And what make YOU more prescient about Vietnamese thoughts than I when most likely you have never set foot in-country? And so what if Japan's economy is in a decline? You speak as if an economy never rise and fall. Even so, the Vietnamese would prefer the current Japan to the current Viet Nam. Yours remains the epic fail of an argument.

If you go by your philosophical way of thinking, Chinese people are commies, then it is ok for everyone to call you a commie too. How can I be racist calling you a commie when your skin tone, hair colour is the same as mine? It is not racist for you to call Chinese communist, then it is ok to call Vietnamese such as yourself a communist too. It makes sense doesn't it my Vietnamese Communist brother.
You would be a racist if you demand that I subscribe to a set of unique 'Asian' thought or political ideology. But since do not consider myself a 'communist' nor do I live in such a country, it would be wrong to call me a 'commie'. But if the Chinese government insist on calling China a Marxist country, then what else are we supposed to call China?
 
Sure we will attack you with RMB instead, surely they worth more than your USD.
Good...This is a tacit acknowledgment that I behaved correctly in the past and that it was you Chinese boys who created the hostility because you are too immature to handle challenges, especially when they are well supported on the technical side.
 
Good...This is a tacit acknowledgment that I behaved correctly in the past and that it was you Chinese boys who created the hostility because you are too immature to handle challenges, especially when they are well supported on the technical side.

Splendid that is a tacit acknowledgement that you are only limited to the so called technical side and spewing derogatory comments at innocent Chinese boys but is rather limited in terms of keeping up with the time, politics, economy and is showing severe lack of common sense.

Nope, it was and will always be:

- US
- France

What a pathetic argument...:cry:...I cannot believe that you could be that bad...Booo...!!! You argued that communism is somehow 'forbidden' in America. And when you are presented with evidence that made you look the fool, you came back with this...???

What's pathetic is your inability to comprehend that I was talking about America forbidding the practice of communism elsewhere, and often create a sense of fear and animosity towards "communist" countries. Then you came back to further aid my argument with just what I needed to prove of America's double standard :usflag:

Spare me...:rolleyes:...As long as you bought that line about China helped 'liberated' Viet Nam nonsense, you supported the North.

Yes China "liberated" Vietnam and we supported the side that won. Bite me?


I never shied away from Diem and what he did in South Viet Nam. I said many times before that he was no paragon of democratic virtues. But this is not about Diem but about China's role in co-starting the Vietnam War.

Good, so you condemn Diem and the west for their involvement in co-starting the Vietnam war which they have ultimately lost.


And yet no one sided with the North Vietnamese during the 1968 Tet Offensive. Funny how you consistently avoided this conundrum.

Who cares what happened in the TET Offensive. Yes it was a phenomenon, but the greater phenomenon wasn't the TET Offensive. It was the sheer pase which the south collapsed when US was no longer meddling with Vietnam. I thought the south was so loved by the entire Vietnam?


Bullsh!T...You have 'debunked' nothing. The best thing that happened to your side of the argument is the available opinions by authors that were against the Vietnam War. But that hardly qualified as 'debunking' anything since they revealed nothing new. Whereas the Ho-Sainteny Agreement was something new to YOU and just about everyone here. That put the context of the war in a new light.

Funny how you claimed the Ho-Sainteny Agreement to be something new? It was nothing new at all since it was all part of the history. You have successfully contradicted yourself with history there. When you are talking about history, you are talking past tense. Regardless of your personal opinions it was a stupid war Americans started and failed. It doesn't matter how many times you revise history, it will always be told the same way. Americans lost and China helped with the liberation of Vietnam. This is a concept which is still new to you so I don't blame you for feeling alien about it. Afterall Team America is most powerful country in the world and they have Capt America right?

The will of the South Vietnamese was not for Ho Chi Minh. As for the Phoenix Program, like I said, this is just another convenient item for you to distract from the real issue: China.

Good.. now that you have acknowledged the south was for Diem and America and the Phoenix Program was a tool and a convenient source of evidence, proving of America's meddling and co-starting of the Vietnam war.


Yes...Viet Nam should have been left partitioned. The world would have another example to see the failures of communism. And that is a feeble insult. Very weak.

Yes the world would be able to see more of how America meddles with communism elsewhere in the world. The insult however, is Vietnam is growing and picking itself up from the rubbish left behind by American and the late Diem's saga. So as a Vietnamese you should be proud.. oh wait you are not Vietnamese right? I almost forgot about you serving in the very Army that napalmed the Vietnamese.

The issue is not about Diem but about China's role in starting the Vietnam War.

No no, not Diem, it was how America, France and Diem started the war.

You speak as if an economy never rise and fall. Even so, the Vietnamese would prefer the current Japan to the current Viet Nam. Yours remains the epic fail of an argument.

Yes I am sure of it, Vietnamese really DO envy the present Japanese economy and country. Fail, just fail. Vietnam is a good land and Japan is not. In fact everyone including Chinese are sorry for the Japanese people for living in a land with little resource and is in constant threat of earthquakes, tsunami, volcanic erruptions and nuclear disasters.

You would be a racist if you demand that I subscribe to a set of unique 'Asian' thought or political ideology. But since do not consider myself a 'communist' nor do I live in such a country, it would be wrong to call me a 'commie'. But if the Chinese government insist on calling China a Marxist country, then what else are we supposed to call China?

Yes it would be wrong to call you a commie since you are an American living in the land of dreams. Like I said China is Communist by name but capitalist in nature. If you are not racist then you should set a good example and call us Chinese. Then again, no one here expects a bully to be capable of becoming a gentleman.lol
 
Splendid that is a tacit acknowledgement that you are only limited to the so called technical side and spewing derogatory comments at innocent Chinese boys but is rather limited in terms of keeping up with the time, politics, economy and is showing severe lack of common sense.
You have a reading comprehension problem. I pointed out that when I initially challenged you Chinese boys, it was on technical issues and that I took more than reasonable efforts to support my arguments as well as being polite and on subject. You Chinese boys took exceptions to that and began to spew your petty racist hatred at me. No 'innocent Chinese boys' here, pal. Pathetic attempt to cast yourselves as victims. But this is a forum that focuses on the military and military related technology and you Chinese boys are out of your league compared to me. I see some Chinese in Canada who never served in uniform, fast food chain restaurant uniforms does not count, and some mainland Chinese who are conscript rejects and neither group done any work related to the technical subjects under discussions but have no problems making outrageous claims about things of their ignorance. I was polite before but after the racist hatred directed at me for no cause, I see no reasons to be nice to you Chinese boys' ignorance.

Whats pathetic is your inability to comprehend that I was talking about America forbidding the practice of communism elsewhere and often create a sense of fear and animosity towards "communist" countries elsewhere other than the US. Then you come back to further aid my argument with just what I needed to prove America's double standard
Forbid? How? Looks like someone need to take history lessons, particularly the map showing how many communist states there were during the Cold War. And why should we not have fear and animosity towards communism? Look at the sorry conditions of those Cold War era communist states. There were no West Berliners trying to 'escape' to East Berlin, were there? Or is there an alternate history you studied where the world was one big happy "Workers' Paradise"? And are you saying that the communists NEVER created propaganda with the goal of instilling fear and animosity against 'Western imperialists' and their 'running dogs'? How charmingly innocent...

Yes China "liberated" Vietnam and we supported the winning side. Bite me?
No...China was in Viet Nam NOT to 'liberate' anyone but to start a war to spread communism. It is always amusing to watch you Chinese boys tap-dance around the issue. The Americans have no problems calling US involvement for what it is: communist containment. But now, given how communism is discredited, the defenders of China's meddling in Viet Nam can do no better than the equally discredited 'liberation' arguments. Too cowardly to call it for what it was: To spread communism? Too chickenshtt to call it as: To propagate a failed ideology? Yup -- On both counts.

Good, so you condemn Diem and the west for their involvement in co-starting the Vietnam war which they have ultimately lost.
Bunk. I do not condemn Diem for being anti-communist. Diem was not the only anti-communist nationalist among other anti-communist nationalists, so do you condemn them as well? I may be critical or even condemning of Diem for being the type of leader he was but not for being anti-communist, just as you see nothing wrong with Mao for being the butcher that he was as long as he led China to independence. Brave and come out and say that being anti-communist is wrong?

Who cares what happened in TET Offensive. Yes it was a phenomenon, but the greater phenomenon wasn't the TET Offensive.
And you have the gall to debate politics and war? The 1968 Tet Offensive, or more specifically its failure to take South Vietnam, totally demolish the communist lie that Viet Nam was behind the Viet Minh and if China and the Soviet Union did not meddle in Viet Nam, North Viet Nam would not exist. But it is telling that you persists in calling out US meddling in SE Asia but not China's own actions as equally 'meddling'. Coward.

It was the sheer pase which the south collapsed when US was no longer meddling with Vietnam. I thought the south was so loved by the entire Vietnam?
Right-O...Congratulations...!!! You effectively made the ridiculous argument that since South Viet Nam collapsed the people must not have loved their side of the country very much. How about if I say this: Since China was carved up and parts became colonial prizes by and for the Europeans and later Japan, a much smaller nation-state, militarily defeated the Chinese and carved out a chunk of Chinese land called 'Manchukuo', the Chinese people must not have loved their country very much. If, and it is a big 'if', there is a 'high Chinese IQ' people, you must not be in that group with this silly argument. The Chinese truly with the 'high IQ' wisely stayed out of something they know they are ignorant about.

Funny how you claimed the Ho-Sainteny Agreement to be something new? It was nothing new at all since it was all part of the history. You have successfully contradicted yourself with history there. When you are talking about history, you are talking past tense. Regardless of your personal opinions it was a stupid war Americans started and failed. It doesn't matter how many times you revise history, it will always be told the same way. Americans lost and China helped with the liberation of Vietnam. This is a concept which is still new to you so I don't blame you for feeling alien about it. Afterall Team America is most powerful country in the world and they have Capt America right?
Yeah...The Ho-Sainteny Agreement is new to YOU, pal. Professional historians regularly research and discovered new facts that formulate new truths about events in varying degrees of significance and impacts. Still, some facts are less well publicized and therefore less well known than others. The Ho-Sainteny Agreement is one of those less publicized and less known facts about the Vietnam War. It is a fact in history that YOU did not know and based upon that ignorance you have a false understanding of the Vietnam War, or more specifically its causes. Those who seeks to justify communism in Viet Nam have good cause to distract attention away from this pact between the Viet Minh and France that led to the return of France as a colony reclaimant. They want to portray the Viet Minh as a victim of France and the US. And when this fact is presented to the public without their consent, they get angry.

So for the benefit of the reader who is willing to be objective about the Vietnam War, the fact that there was a pact between the Viet Minh and France so soon after the end of WW II, so soon as in months, that actually invited France back into Indochina as a colony reclaimant, and that the pact placed Viet Nam back into colonial possession status, is a moral indictment against the communists for doing their part in causing the Vietnam War. Yes, the US may have failed in Viet Nam, but that failure is irrelevant regarding the chains of events that led up to the war. The intellectually honest position when presented with new facts, new as in when a person did not know them before, not 'new' as in newly discovered by research, is to admit that those new facts compelled a reassessment of one's position regarding the historical event. The Ho-Sainteny Agreement is not new to me but it is indeed new to YOU but you are too much of a coward to admit that it did forced you to consider the possibility that what you previously believed about the Vietnam War as wrong or even incomplete.

Many Viets who lived through the war did not know about this pact, and practically none are the Viets who came after unification and believed the communists to be pure as freshly fallen snow. The communists and their deceitful Western apologists worked hard to suppress this fact. But to no avail. So in your cowardice, it is YOU are revising history as in revising it back to the comfort point for you despite the truth presented. But it is too much to ask any Chinese to be intellectually honest about China's meddling in Viet Nam to the detriment of the Vietnamese.

Good.. now that you have acknowledged the south was for Diem and America and the Phoenix Program was a tool and a convenient source of evidence, proving of America's meddling and co-starting of the Vietnam war.
The Phoenix Program was a tactic of war, not one of its causes. The communists have their own version which was more atrocious in that they were indiscriminate in their targets and those murders preceded the American military involvement in Viet Nam. The reason you keep calling the US the co-starter of the Vietnam War is because you are trying (in vain) to distract attraction from the truth: That China was in Viet Nam long before the US was. Do you deny that fact? Be brave and state that denial.

Yes the world would be able to see more of how America meddles with communism elsewhere in the world. The insult however was Vietnam is growing again and picking itself up from the rubbish left behind by American and the late Diem's saga.
You mean the sorry condition of every communist states, including Viet Nam? If communism was not forced upon the people, there would be no need for Viet Nam to 'grow again'. That is what the world see and understand. The PC you are using? Ain't from the communists. The Internet? Ain't from the communists. That microwave oven? Ain't from the communists. It is deliciously ironic to see that you, a Chinese Canadian who never lived through the bloody years of communism in China or through the Cold War for that matter, have been thoroughly brainwashed into believing that the ONLY way for a people to achieve independence is to have communism imposed, suffer decades of political oppression and economic hardships, then 'grow again'. A Chinese Canadian who never know political oppression and economic hardship, and who would curse Canada at even a hint of censorship or reduction in wages, is cheering for the Vietnamese to suffer the very bloody things communists are famous for.

So as a Vietnamese you should be proud.. oh wait you are not Vietnamese right? I almost forgot about you serving in the very Army that napalmed the Vietnamese.
It is precisely this kind of cheap personal attacks from the beginning that earned you Chinese boys my contempt.

No no, not Diem, it was how America, France and Diem started the war.
Wrong...China was in Viet Nam long before the US and Diem. It was China who prodded North Vietnamese communists to start the war. After France, it was China who provided guidance and weapons to slaughter North Vietnamese anti-communist nationalists. It was China who imposed the disastrous land reform that resulted in famine in North Viet Nam. Those and many more occurred before US military involvement in Viet Nam. Be brave and state your denial of these historical facts.

Yes I am sure of it, Vietnamese really DO envy the present Japanese economy and country. Fail, just fail. Vietnam is a good land and Japan is not. In fact everyone including Chinese are sorry for the Japanese people for living in a land with little resource and is in constant threat of earthquakes, tsunami, volcanic erruptions and nuclear disasters.
Desperate...desperate...!!! Yes...The Vietnamese really DO envy the Japanese for living better in many ways. I know because I hear them enough, in the US and in Viet Nam. It really is a desperate argument because you do not understand the 'whats' of that envy. It certainly is not the land but because despite the land's abundance of natural resources, communism prevented the Vietnamese from exploiting the bounty for their own benefits. Just like how communism denied the Chinese the same, remember the Chinese folly of adopting Lysenkoism from the Soviets? So for you to bring up threats of 'earthquakes, tsunami, volcanic erruptions and nuclear disasters' in the Japanese islands is truly a desperate and 'low IQ' argument.

Yes it would be wrong to call you a commie since you are an American living in the land of dreams. Like I said China is Communist by name but capitalist in nature. If you are not racist then you should set a good example and call us Chinese. Then again, no one her expects a bully to be capable of becoming a gentleman.lol
Me a 'bully'? That is a laugh. But if I am acting like a bully, like I said before that based upon you Chinese boys' unwarranted personal attacks against me, you Chinese boys earned it.
 
I am a Vietnamese American. I am not a communist (in fact I hate the failed communist ideology) and I don't support the current Vietnamese government (which is why I don't put the Vietnamese communist flag on my profile) nor do I support American in the Vietnam War. I don't support the Iraq war or the war in Afghanistan. I believe we, Vietnamese, are people stuck between a rock and hard place, just like Iraqis and Afghanis. We are just small fry in the global scheme of things.

That being said, I have to say don't agree with Gambit one bit. As far Chinese and American/the West are concern, Vietnamese are a lot closer to Chinese racially and culturally. Due to close proximity in geography and culture, there is more chance to cultivate relationship both nationally and individually with China than the US (ideology aside).

Although Vietnamese resist Chinese for a long time, Vietnamese failed to resist the West (French/American) - as a result the West inflicted a lot more damage to the Vietnamese people physically, mentally, and culturally than any other entity throughout its history. The Vietnam War wipe out nearly 10% of the population, who knows how many men, women, and children were killed or women raped during the French rule. Mentally, we are damaged.

I know a lot of Vietnamese who are proud that they resist the Chinese for millennia, but when I think about it, what is there to be proud of when what you are proud of are gone. Vietnamese didn't stop the French from changing their way of life and thinking, didn't stop the French from change their written language, didn't stop the French from spread Catholicism that challenge and demean Vietnamese ancestral traditions. What is more telling than the fact that all of last imperial family members abandon their people and ran to France and all married to French common people? If I was proud of imperial family, I would be ashamed, but I am not. In fact, I think it is quite cowardice to run to French soil for safety while your people are dying. Or this clip of the Madame Ngô Đình Nhu mocking Buddhist Thích Quảng Đức and belittling Vietnamese Buddhist tradition.
All I see are traitors and failures on a massive scale by Vietnamese leaders who are suppose to help the Vietnamese people: both the North and the South.
We can blame the Chinese or the America or the French, but in the end, we have ourselves to blame for not teaching people children to be vigilant or united, and to not be blinded by what the power that be say.

I just want to give my thought into this. I have nothing to add. I don’t know who is right or wrong. The history book can manipulated to provide endless arguments and counter arguments, what could have happened, or what might have happened, which is why this damn thread is over 20 pages long. All I know is where we started and how we ended and all the other crap in between are mindless details of which written and rewritten by god know how many times.
 
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I am a Vietnamese American. I am not a communist (in fact I hate the failed communist ideology) and I don't support the current Vietnamese government (which is why I don't put the Vietnamese communist flag on my profile) nor do I support American in the Vietnam War. I don't support the Iraq war or the war in Afghanistan. I believe we, Vietnamese, are people stuck between a rock and hard place, just like Iraqis and Afghanis. We are just small fry in the global scheme of things.

That being said, I have to say don't agree with Gambit one bit. As far Chinese and American/the West are concern, Vietnamese are a lot closer to Chinese racially and culturally. Due to close proximity in geography and culture, there is more chance to cultivate relationship both nationally and individually with China than the US (ideology aside).

Although Vietnamese resist Chinese for a long time, Vietnamese failed to resist the West (French/American) - as a result the West inflicted a lot more damage to the Vietnamese people physically, mentally, and culturally than any other entity throughout its history. The Vietnam War wipe out nearly 10% of the population, who knows how many men, women, and children were killed or women raped during the French rule. Mentally, we are damaged.

I know a lot of Vietnamese who are proud that they resist the Chinese for millennia, but when I think about it, what is there to be proud of when what you are proud of are gone. Vietnamese didn't stop the French from changing their way of life and thinking, didn't stop the French from change their written language, didn't stop the French from spread Catholicism that challenge and demean Vietnamese ancestral traditions. What is more telling than the fact that all of last imperial family members abandon their people and ran to France and all married to French common people? If I was proud of imperial family, I would be ashamed, but I am not. In fact, I think it is quite cowardice to run to French soil for safety while your people are dying. Or this clip of the Madame Ngô Đình Nhu mocking Buddhist Thích Quảng Đức and belittling Vietnamese Buddhist tradition.
All I see are traitors and failures on a massive scale by Vietnamese leaders who are suppose to help the Vietnamese people: both the North and the South.
We can blame the Chinese or the America or the French, but in the end, we have ourselves to blame for not teaching people children to be vigilant or united, and to not be blinded by what the power that be say.

I just want to give my thought into this. I have nothing to add. I don’t know who is right or wrong. The history book can manipulated to provide endless arguments and counter arguments, what could have happened, or what might have happened, which is why this damn thread is over 20 pages long. All I know is where we started and how we ended and all the other crap in between are mindless details of which written and rewritten by god know how many times.

The best way for Vietnam is to stick with China, and the rise of China means the prosperity for the Asian countries.

China has no intention to physically or mentally colonize Vietnam or any other Asian countries, but all the Asian countries should be cooperative with China to resist against the Western Imperalism. We are in the same boat, the downfall of China isn't good for Vietnam, 19th century was the perfect example.
 
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If something exists, then it must be reasonable. -Heiger

The end result is for all to see. South Vietnamese plantation slave owners are kicked out permanently and can only cry sitting as a subject of the Wall Street regime. Vietnam on the other hand is developing fast, though still poor, they were impoverished by the chemical warfare and genocide of the biggest mafia in the world.
 
If something exists, then it must be reasonable. -Heiger

The end result is for all to see. South Vietnamese plantation slave owners are kicked out permanently and can only cry sitting as a subject of the Wall Street regime. Vietnam on the other hand is developing fast, though still poor, they were impoverished by the chemical warfare and genocide of the biggest mafia in the world.

Too bad, Gambit claimed he was a North Vietnamese with some Chinese blood. :undecided:
 

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