Vietnam vice minister apologizes to Japan for “$2 Billion loan” gaffe

[mike2000]

Then pray may I ask what you think should be done to help develop these developing third world nations, ergo, nations in Africa, Asia, Latin America et al ?

Just like me and my friend Svensvensonov said earlier Trade and not aid is the way forward for these poor developing countries. Aid as i said as been a tried and tested disaster for helping(more like destroying.lol) poor developing countries. the reasons for these are obvious as i stated earlier, since aid is really not Aid. Most Aid programs are poorly structured and constrained by conditionalities. This undermines the independence of recipient countries and the management of their economic affairs.Aid also erodes accountability. Providing Aid through the governments of poor countries erodes accountability because governments become more accountable to donors than to their own citizens(these is without talking about the huge bribes corruption involved in this loans/aid like with ODA between vietnam and japan officials). moreover aid also leads to a chronic dependency on donors. Because poor countries are dependent on donor handouts they fail to prioritize the generation of domestic resources. This creates a chronic dependency on aid, stifles creativity and undermines the dignity of people.

Even more so, i will ask you one simple question my friend Nihonji, have you ever seen in the literature of development economics, handouts/aid feature as building blocks for prosperity/making a country prosperous/developed?lool NOPE NEVER, and its not a coincidence either. Therefore to me(and my friend niceguy.lol) the idea that Aid can be a solution to Africa's/Vietnam's and other poor developing countries development challenges flies in the face of the evidence of what drives growth, creates jobs, and brings prosperity to our societies.

So these poor countries should first recognise that trade between one another in the region(even among rival countries) holds the greatest promise of sustainable development. for example look at south Asia led by India, they are the least intergrated region in Asia and barely trade with each citing 'security concerns' on even the most dumbest reason.lol other due to conflicts/differences/rivalries/resentment etc. reason they are still the most backward/poorest region in Asia(even more than most African countries). its no coincidence the lag behind their east asian peers who are more open to trade/investments from each other . Africa also suffers from the same problem, it has just about 2 percent of all world trade, which is hard to believe when you think about all of the tremendous resources that they have - oil, diamonds, gold etc not to mention all the agricultural products such as coffee, tea, cocoa - and to think that Africa still only has 2 percent of world trade is really incredible to be hoenst.. I have to emphasize again to you my friend Nihonji, the power of trade is that if the Africans(as an example, it could also apply to Vietnam/Laos/cambodia, Philippines etc) were able to increase their share of world trade from 2 to 3 percent, that 1 percentage increase would actually generate about $70 billion of additional income annually for Africa,or about three times the total development assistance Africa gets from the entire world today.

On this i think South Asia can also learn from Africa issues, from the little trade they do with each other and the world. For example, Africans trade the least with each other than all the other continents(second comes south Asia i believe.lol), this is one of the main reason they are poor/backward as i stated earlier, simply because you are unlikely to be competitive globally if you are not competitive regionally. So until they open their borders with each other and trade with each other, you are not going to get the level of competition that will allow them to be major providers of any product globally.

Our governements in the west/U.S(and even our student Japan.lol) talk of improving/'helping' poor developing countries veryday and night.lool yet there's been no real action because these rich countries heavily protect their own markets against exports from the poorest countries through import duties and quotas. Furthermore rich countries continue to subsidize their own agricultural sectors to the tune of a billion dollars a day(yes Japan, E.U and the U.S im looking at you.), making it impossible for African/Vietnamese/Cambodian etc farmers to compete internationally.

So if Japan and the west/U,S really want to 'help' these poor countries as they claim(which i dont believe by the way. lol) then they must open their markets quota and duty free to African/South asian/south east asianand other poor developing countries exports and remove agricultural subsidies which hurt African farmers.

These poor countries must be allowed to harness the power of trade in their own way to maximize poverty alleviation and economic growth - there is no "cookie-cutter" trade policy to force on poor countries..

 

[Aepsilons]

SO if Japan and the west/U,S really want to 'help' these poor countries as they claim(which i dont belive by the way. lol) then they must open their markets quota and duty free to African/South asian/south east asianand other poor developing countries exports and remove agricultural subsidies which hurt African farmers.

Aside from our deep penetration investments into all sectors of Vietnamese economy, I can think of the ASEAN-Japan FTA. Secondarily, the United States is also foraying this so called mutually inclusive relationship vis-a-vis the TPP.

The bilateral trade between Vietnam and Japan is already at $25 Billion per annum, with Vietnamese goods and commodities going to Japan in the range of $13 Billion. Let me say that the trade between Japan and Vietnam is in the same level as the trade between Russia and Japan, which is around $28 Billion.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Aside from our deep penetration investments into all sectors of Vietnamese economy, I can think of the ASEAN-Japan FTA. Secondarily, the United States is also foraying this so called mutually inclusive relationship vis-a-vis the TPP.

You might like this article on Vietnam's investment climate from TheDiplomat.com

From Catfish to Computer Chips: There’s More Than One Vietnam for Investors | The Diplomat

And I for one can't wait for the conclusion of the TTP negotiations. This will be a massive boon for all the nations involved, though the trappings of free-trade can manifest as well and that should cause a few concerns in the US... as seen with NAFTA and it being blamed for job loss to Mexico. Still, the benefits far outweigh the costs and with industry re-shoring to the US and away from traditional manufacturing powers such as Taiwan and China, I'm not too concerned about marginal job losses to lower-wage paying countries.

 

[Aepsilons]

You might like this article on Vietnam's investment climate from TheDiplomat.com

From Catfish to Computer Chips: There’s More Than One Vietnam for Investors | The Diplomat

Excellent article, buddy. One of the reasons why Vietnam remains lucrative and will retain Japanese business confidence is the shear fact of plenteous cheap labor.

 

[mike2000]

A for the some Chinese members here like Agent Orange(again a weird name.lol), it seems the hate you have for Vietnam is even greater than the hate you have for Japan. To see a chinese choose a Japanese side against Vietnam is indeed something new i have yet to see in Asia to be honest. Anyway, you have to try and be practicial/un biased in your views bro, afterall we are on a discussion forum. You dont always have to bash/insult other rival countries members(in this case vIetnam) just because you had some beef with him.them previously.You can still not like someone/a country. But still make credible/factual comments on a case involving them, even if that point/case is positive towards the, Dont let your hate blind you bros. After all we are all just common civilians, not politicians, so we cant change/influence our government foreign policies anyway. So why not be friends and exchange points of view respectfully while agreeing to disagree? Im happy to see your other Chinese members here at least made some constructivfactual econtribution on this thread/topic, instead of indulging in anti- Vietnam bashing. I dont even understand why you people are so obssessed with a small/poor developing country like Vietnam. You should be focusing your attention on Japan and the U.S who are your real rivals now and in future(more like the U.S lol).

 

[Aepsilons]

Even more so, i will ask you one simple question my friend Nihonji, have you ever seen in the literature of development economics, handouts/aid feature as building blocks for prosperity/making a country prosperous/developed?lool NOPE NEVER, and its not a coincidence either. Therefore to me(and my friend niceguy.lol) the idea that Aid can be a solution to Africa's/Vietnam's and other poor developing countries development challenges flies in the face of the evidence of what drives growth, creates jobs, and brings prosperity to our societies.

Economic growth is defined, in terms of the AD/AS model, as an outward shift of both AD and AS. Increases in consumption will increase AD, but this will lead to inflation, and in the long run, workers will demand higher wages, increasing the costs of production and shifting AS leftward, returning the economy to the full employment level of output.

Investment is a determinant of AD, just like consumption, so AD will shift out, but it is also a determinant of AS, since firms are investing in capital. Increase the quantity or the quality of capital, and labor becomes more productive. Greater productivity shifts out AS, leading to growth AND stable prices.

So you see, this is how investment is, in regards to macroeconomics, is directly correlated to overall national growth and specified independent variables ergo, employment rates, gdp growth, price stabilization, productivity et al.

 

[mike2000]

please don't be mad bro. some people are just hard to say "thank you"

View attachment 152664

We have already rebutted the myth of 'AID' and you are still asking for gratitude/thank you? lool As i said, no country 'aids' another per se. Its all sham. Trade is the way forward if you really help a country develop sustainably, not 'aid'. i dont even need to go further into all these, you can go through the points i made. So i think we should stop this: You should be grateful/thanking me bullshit, its getting annoying to be honest. Guess we should also ask China(and India) to say thank you to us in the west/ U.S for helping them develop their country as well, like some say here in the west. those ingratitude Chinese bastards.

 

[Rechoice]

State Debt Per Capita Rises To Over US$905

​

The public debt of Vietnam continues to rise and now stands at over US$81,885 billion, accounting for 47.7% of the nation’s GDP, according to the Economist.com Global debt clock.

In the past three months, the website reports that Vietnam’s total public debts have increased US$1.815 billion and the average public debt per person has risen by US$18.82 to US$905.00.


The website reports that the global average public debt per person is US$905.18 and the total public debt is over US$53,551 billion.

According to a report by Finance Minister DinhTien Dung at the National Assembly (NA)’s session on June 11, Vietnam’s public debt has been on the uptick in recent years. The debt-to-GDP ratio has risen from 51.7% in 2010 to 54.1% in 2013.

Dung affirmed that public debts are now below the current rate of 65% set by the NA. He attributed the rapid increase in public debts is to the shortage of state’s capital sources for economic development, especially in developing infrastructure.

Regarding the restructuring of public debts, 50% are from foreign debts while the remaining comes from domestic loans through issuance of government bonds. Therefore, the pressure on new loans to repay old loans remains relatively high, Dung said.

(Source: english.vov.vn)

 

[AgentOrange]

Please review the cause of that collapse. In fact, it was the failure of Vietnamese engineers to listen to Japanese recommendation that led to the unfortunate collapase.

Long before the collapse, on 12 January, a Japanese construction consultant, Hiroshi Kudo, had recommended specific measures for installing the temporary poles for the scaffolding, and that load tests for the piling should be carried out in accordance with international standards and codes. According to Kudo, the loading capacity of the scaffolding, as per the detailed design proposed by the contractors, met just 15% of the required loading. He remarked that:

• The contractors had multiplied the pile overloading ratio by 1.15 instead of 1.25 in accordance with the American standard or 1.35 in accordance with the Japanese standard;
• When calculating the wind force on the temporary piles, the contractors had applied a wind force of 0.5 kPa, which was too low; it should have been 2.5 kPa. (According to NCE.co.uk, 2.5 is the coefficient for the wind loading

Collapsed Can Tho bridge engineers knew scaffolding was inadequate | Online news | New Civil Engineer


So quit blabbering and blaming. It was Vietnamese engineers who knew of what JAPANESE ARCHITECTS had recommended, but failed to implement !

Heck, we even apologized for the failure of Vietnamese civil engineers.

As I said, gratitude is a foreign concept to Vietnamese people. They even blame "Japanese loans" for their inferior and incompetent Viet trained engineers that led to their own deaths. But NiceGuy will still continue to use Japanese built infrastructure in Vietnam. And he'll drive a Japanese car donated by the Japanese government while he crosses the Japanese funded bridge. The entire time he'll be ranting about how "dirty" the Japanese are. Come to think of it, irony is a foreign concept to Vietnamese people as well.

Obviously Japan is contributing aid to Vietnam in the hopes of economic benefit and it's not an altruistic venture. Japan contributes development loans in the hopes of gaining greater influence as well as make some money in return. But what's mind boggling is that people are accusing the donors of attempting to subvert their country? Rather than have such a hostile attitude towards foreign loans, perhaps these people should do a bit of self reflection and ascertain why Vietnam is so corrupt and pathetic that they can't leverage this infusion of foreign capital for greater industrialization like certain other countries can?

 

[AgentOrange]

A for the some Chinese members here like Agent Orange(again a weird name.lol), it seems the hate you have for Vietnam is even greater than the hate you have for Japan. To see a chinese choose a Japanese side against Vietnam is indeed something new i have yet to see in Asia to be honest. Anyway, you have to try and be practicial/un biased in your views bro, afterall we are on a discussion forum. You dont always have to bash/insult other rival countries members(in this case vIetnam) just because you had some beef with him.them previously.You can still not like someone/a country. But still make credible/factual comments on a case involving them, even if that point/case is positive towards the, Dont let your hate blind you bros. After all we are all just common civilians, not politicians, so we cant change/influence our government foreign policies anyway. So why not be friends and exchange points of view respectfully while agreeing to disagree? Im happy to see your other Chinese members here at least made some constructivfactual econtribution on this thread/topic, instead of indulging in anti- Vietnam bashing. I dont even understand why you people are so obssessed with a small/poor developing country like Vietnam. You should be focusing your attention on Japan and the U.S who are your real rivals now and in future(more like the U.S lol).

I wasn't aware that I should "hate" Japan more than Vietnam? I'm sorry if my having fun on this forum offends you. I admit, I do derive a certain guilty pleasure from "de-baiting" our Viet forum goers, especially the ones that think the United States Military will help Vietnam acquire a Sub-Mekong empire. But please, do go on and tell me more about what I should and shouldn't do. You know I highly value your opinion and friendship and will, as ever, do exactly as you say. The last statement was heavy sarcasm, for those with broken sarcasm detection meters.

 

[mike2000]

As I said, gratitude is a foreign concept to Vietnamese people. They even blame "Japanese loans" for their inferior and incompetent Viet trained engineers that led to their own deaths. But NiceGuy will still continue to use Japanese built infrastructure in Vietnam. And he'll drive a Japanese car donated by the Japanese government while he crosses the Japanese funded bridge. The entire time he'll be ranting about how "dirty" the Japanese are. Come to think of it, irony is a foreign concept to Vietnamese people as well.

Obviously Japan is contributing aid to Vietnam in the hopes of economic benefit and it's not an altruistic venture. Japan contributes development loans in the hopes of gaining greater influence as well as make some money in return. But what's mind boggling is that people are accusing the donors of attempting to subvert their country? Rather than have such a hostile attitude towards foreign loans, perhaps these people should do a bit of self reflection and ascertain why Vietnam is so corrupt and pathetic that they can't leverage this infusion of foreign capital for greater industrialization like certain other countries can?

lool Nobody put the blame squarely on Japan man, Have you red our posts correctly? I said several times that the first people Vietnamese/africans and other poor developing countries shoould blame is their leaders first and foremost, then in second place Japan and other western/rich countries who encourage/promote/keep this corrupt system going. In fact even your chinese brother mentioned how 'aid' is being used by the U.S/west to claim superiority over you people. So why dont you Chinese say THANK YOU to us for giving you aid since you were still a poor country like vietnam in the 70s to 90s until today we still provide you with 'aid' so dont forget that and say thank you/be gratitude towards us. If you are not ready to say Thank you to us for our 'aid' we provided you, then you shouldnt blame the Vietnamese either. Since you are both the same it seems.

You have to know NO COUNTRY ON PLANET EARTH AIDS THE OTHER FOR FREE(without getting much more in return). Anybody that thinks otherwise with all due respect is quite naive. We are not out here to give alms/do charity man. Get your facts straight bro. Just because you hate Vietnam doesnt means you should be blind in making such statements.

 

[AgentOrange]

lool Nobody put the blame squarely on Japan man, Have you red our posts correctly? I said several times that the first people Vietnamese/africans and other poor developing countries shoould blame is their leaders first and foremost, then in second place Japan and other western/rich countries who encourage/promote/keep this corrupt system going. In fact even your chinese brother mentioned how 'aid' is being used by the U.S/west to claim superiority over you people. So why dont you Chinese say THANK YOU to us for giving you aid since you were still a poor country like vietnam in the 70s to 90s until today we still provide you with 'aid' so dont forget that and say thank you/be gratitude towards us. If you are not ready to say Thank you to us for our 'aid' we provided you, then you shouldnt blame the Vietnamese either. Since you are both the same it seems.

You have to know NO COUNTRY ON PLANET EARTH AIDS THE OTHER FOR FREE(without getting much more in return). Anybody that thinks otherwise with all due respect is quite naive. We are not out here to give alms/do charity man. Get your facts straight bro. Just because you hate Vietnam doesnt means you should be blind in making such statements.

I know exactly what you've been saying. My question is: did *you* read the 2nd paragraph in my response that you quoted? It galls our more delusional Viet friends if non-Viets tell them they should be grateful. And that makes me smile.

Read the 2nd paragraph that I wrote - I understand that foreign "aid" always comes with strings and isn't out of the goodness of someone's heart. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. At the same time, is it the fault of foreign investors if the host nation is a veritable dung heap of corruption, inefficiency, and incompetence? It's always easy to point fingers at fast food places for making someone fat but it's harder to admit that you should have put down the fork 3 burgers ago. Does that make sense?

 

[mike2000]

State Debt Per Capita Rises To Over US$905

​

The public debt of Vietnam continues to rise and now stands at over US$81,885 billion, accounting for 47.7% of the nation’s GDP, according to the Economist.com Global debt clock.

In the past three months, the website reports that Vietnam’s total public debts have increased US$1.815 billion and the average public debt per person has risen by US$18.82 to US$905.00.


The website reports that the global average public debt per person is US$905.18 and the total public debt is over US$53,551 billion.

According to a report by Finance Minister DinhTien Dung at the National Assembly (NA)’s session on June 11, Vietnam’s public debt has been on the uptick in recent years. The debt-to-GDP ratio has risen from 51.7% in 2010 to 54.1% in 2013.

Dung affirmed that public debts are now below the current rate of 65% set by the NA. He attributed the rapid increase in public debts is to the shortage of state’s capital sources for economic development, especially in developing infrastructure.

Regarding the restructuring of public debts, 50% are from foreign debts while the remaining comes from domestic loans through issuance of government bonds. Therefore, the pressure on new loans to repay old loans remains relatively high, Dung said.

View attachment 152827
(Source: english.vov.vn)

So its similar to the image i posted earlier then.

 

[Rechoice]

As I said, gratitude is a foreign concept to Vietnamese people. They even blame "Japanese loans" for their inferior and incompetent Viet trained engineers that led to their own deaths. But NiceGuy will still continue to use Japanese built infrastructure in Vietnam. And he'll drive a Japanese car donated by the Japanese government while he crosses the Japanese funded bridge. The entire time he'll be ranting about how "dirty" the Japanese are. Come to think of it, irony is a foreign concept to Vietnamese people as well.

Obviously Japan is contributing aid to Vietnam in the hopes of economic benefit and it's not an altruistic venture. Japan contributes development loans in the hopes of gaining greater influence as well as make some money in return. But what's mind boggling is that people are accusing the donors of attempting to subvert their country? Rather than have such a hostile attitude towards foreign loans, perhaps these people should do a bit of self reflection and ascertain why Vietnam is so corrupt and pathetic that they can't leverage this infusion of foreign capital for greater industrialization like certain other countries can?

Don't forget that there is the Japanese Company did the Design and Superviser Seriveces. Where is Japanese superviser in that time when accident happen ? Take a relax in office or in Tokyo ?

You can not blame everything to Vietnamese when Japanese company is paid to do that.

 

[Rechoice]

So its similar to the image i posted earlier then.

View attachment 152829

Yes, our debt is nearly reached 65 % of GDP, so we have to stop to borrow more from JICA, ADB or IMF.