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I thought discussion was about DN 4000 & Holland-class OPV.
Both Samarth-class & Samar-class have range more than 6000 nmi which can be average than what is use of much bigger & too many such ships when you have limited budget.
Ships like Samarth-class can be good but don't know why CG should have ships like DN 4000.
You know VCG doesn't need more range than 6000 nmi & you aren't going to fight with CG ships as you are not going to put any offensive weapon on them.
Talking about 10x DN 4000(4000 tonnes), 9x DN 2000(2500 tonnes)

Samar class is listed as having 6000 nmi range`and Samarth as 6000 nmi at 12 knots. DN-2000 is listed a 5000nmi at unknown economic speed. You don't need more range for greater 'reach' but you might need it for sustained presence in an area i.e. 'endurance'. Recall the example of the Phillippines that Carlosa gave earlier: if you have to leave before the opponent has to, they might get the area. Also, it is not unheard of that coast guards ships of different nations get physical, so you might need sufficient mass to match some ships. Moving from big a$$ to bigger a$$ ships.

See http://www.vietnambreakingnews.com/...rejects-chinas-east-sea-wrongful-allegations/

This puppy is 3000 ton.
213851fvammci2e0atcems.jpg


These are 4000 ton
china-coast-guard.png



chinese-ship-follows-vietnamese-coastguard-in-the-data.jpg

SCS_DSLG.jpg

20140623125823-1.jpg

NrPSt4lr.jpg


image.jpg

Wq3R8R0G.jpg


And vice versa too!


For the Dutch Navy, the Holland class OPV are an economy measure as similarly sized M-frigates are much more expensive to operate and use in anti-piracy (rather than actual warfare) and so all but 2 (of 8) were decommissioned, replaced with 4 OPV's and let go to foreign navies e.g. Belgium (2) , Portugal (2), and Chile (2). The size of the ship has to do with our need to e.g. patrol against drugs in the Caribbian (autonomous overseas parts of our kingdom) and international commitments in support of anti-piracy ops e.g. in the Arabian Sea.
 
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Also between China and Japan, elsewhere.
001fd04cea5113a107e202.jpg


OB-VC878_coastg_G_20121026110809.jpg


NM585700_a_339268c.jpg


And between Japan and Taiwan and more combinations, esp. in the SCS

South_China_Sea_claims_map.jpg


Much (I'ld say well over half) of Vietnams' EEZ is contested by China. Note that all the contested Spratly islands are near the edge of the VIetnamese EEZ, and often nearer to Malaysia than to Vietnam itself
 
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I thought discussion was about DN 4000 & Holland-class OPV.
Both Samarth-class & Samar-class have range more than 6000 nmi which can be average than what is use of much bigger & too many such ships when you have limited budget.
Ships like Samarth-class can be good but don't know why CG should have ships like DN 4000.
You know VCG doesn't need more range than 6000 nmi & you aren't going to fight with CG ships as you are not going to put any offensive weapon on them.
Talking about 10x DN 4000(4000 tonnes), 9x DN 2000(2500 tonnes)
@Penguin has explained it very well. With coast guards it is important to have different classes of vessel to support one another, the large OPVs (>3000 tons) can be "on station" for long periods of time and the smaller classes can support when needed and undertake patrols closer to shore thus creating a comprehensive, layered, patrol arc. The Indian Coast Guard has followed this policy for a long time, why else are they inducting 3,000+ ton OPVs?
 
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Samar class is listed as having 6000 nmi range`and Samarth as 6000 nmi at 12 knots. DN-2000 is listed a 5000nmi at unknown economic speed. You don't need more range for greater 'reach' but you might need it for sustained presence in an area i.e. 'endurance'. Recall the example of the Phillippines that Carlosa gave earlier: if you have to leave before the opponent has to, they might get the area. Also, it is not unheard of that coast guards ships of different nations get physical, so you might need sufficient mass to match some ships. Moving from big a$$ to bigger a$$ ships.

See http://www.vietnambreakingnews.com/...rejects-chinas-east-sea-wrongful-allegations/

This puppy is 3000 ton.
213851fvammci2e0atcems.jpg


These are 4000 ton
china-coast-guard.png



chinese-ship-follows-vietnamese-coastguard-in-the-data.jpg

SCS_DSLG.jpg

20140623125823-1.jpg

NrPSt4lr.jpg


image.jpg

Wq3R8R0G.jpg


And vice versa too!


For the Dutch Navy, the Holland class OPV are an economy measure as similarly sized M-frigates are much more expensive to operate and use in anti-piracy (rather than actual warfare) and so all but 2 (of 8) were decommissioned, replaced with 4 OPV's and let go to foreign navies e.g. Belgium (2) , Portugal (2), and Chile (2). The size of the ship has to do with our need to e.g. patrol against drugs in the Caribbian (autonomous overseas parts of our kingdom) and international commitments in support of anti-piracy ops e.g. in the Arabian Sea.

I'd like to point out that the latest chinese coast guard vessel is a 10,000 ton vessel, so the chinese strategy is very clear. They want to be able to muscle out everybody.

That's why Vietnam had to get into the DN-2000 and 4000 vessels. Bigger ship will ram you real bad as was shown during the oil rig episode.

For the Dutch Navy, the Holland class OPV are an economy measure as similarly sized M-frigates are much more expensive to operate and use in anti-piracy (rather than actual warfare) and so all but 2 (of 8) were decommissioned, replaced with 4 OPV's and let go to foreign navies e.g. Belgium (2) , Portugal (2), and Chile (2). The size of the ship has to do with our need to e.g. patrol against drugs in the Caribbian (autonomous overseas parts of our kingdom) and international commitments in support of anti-piracy ops e.g. in the Arabian Sea.

There you go, thank you very much.

You just illustrated my point about why I advocate for what I call a "missile armed OPV" for Vietnam.
As you said, such OPV vessels are much cheaper to buy and operate, which also means that you can have more.

My definition of a "missile armed OPV" is a hybrid between a coast guard vessel and a light warship. It needs to keep all the attributes of a coast guard vessel such as the fast boat for boarding, the water cannons, the search and rescue capabilities, etc coupled to a light sensor and weapons suit, something like what is in the Molniya class.

Example, just imagine a DN-2000 with a modified superstructure to house a 76mm gun, 8 KH-35 missiles, some AK-630s, Sigma-E CMS, etc plus the radars and sensors of the Molniya.

Vietnam pays $90 million for the DN-2000 and I estimate that by adding all these other stuff it would cost $130 million total. See my point? You can have many ships like that and you can build them fast. They are for peacetime duties, patrol and to slog it out with the chinese.

@Penguin has explained it very well. With coast guards it is important to have different classes of vessel to support one another, the large OPVs (>3000 tons) can be "on station" for long periods of time and the smaller classes can support when needed and undertake patrols closer to shore thus creating a comprehensive, layered, patrol arc. The Indian Coast Guard has followed this policy for a long time, why else are they inducting 3,000+ ton OPVs?

Exactly, I would even say that with respect to the chinese, for Vietnam the coast guard is actually even more important than the navy, but need to have both, of course.

When you are playing with the chinese, you are playing the numbers game and the size game. Size does matter !!!!
 
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Samar class is listed as having 6000 nmi range`and Samarth as 6000 nmi at 12 knots. DN-2000 is listed a 5000nmi at unknown economic speed. You don't need more range for greater 'reach' but you might need it for sustained presence in an area i.e. 'endurance'. Recall the example of the Phillippines that Carlosa gave earlier: if you have to leave before the opponent has to, they might get the area. Also, it is not unheard of that coast guards ships of different nations get physical, so you might need sufficient mass to match some ships. Moving from big a$$ to bigger a$$ ships.
I almost always see speed for considering range, I was thinking about righting speed here too but forgot, I thought this range was at speed of 15 kn.
For the Dutch Navy, the Holland class OPV are an economy measure as similarly sized M-frigates are much more expensive to operate and use in anti-piracy (rather than actual warfare) and so all but 2 (of 8) were decommissioned, replaced with 4 OPV's and let go to foreign navies e.g. Belgium (2) , Portugal (2), and Chile (2). The size of the ship has to do with our need to e.g. patrol against drugs in the Caribbian (autonomous overseas parts of our kingdom) and international commitments in support of anti-piracy ops e.g. in the Arabian Sea.
No, I was thinking only about Vietnam.
After seeing this range I have to accept that Vietnam need these ships also ICG also must have such ships as threat for India is also no less than Vietnam.
@Penguin has explained it very well. With coast guards it is important to have different classes of vessel to support one another, the large OPVs (>3000 tons) can be "on station" for long periods of time and the smaller classes can support when needed and undertake patrols closer to shore thus creating a comprehensive, layered, patrol arc. The Indian Coast Guard has followed this policy for a long time, why else are they inducting 3,000+ ton OPVs?
Fast interceptor crafts are needed for speed as these are fast, cheaper & effective against piracy.
My definition of a "missile armed OPV" is a hybrid between a coast guard vessel and a light warship. It needs to keep all the attributes of a coast guard vessel such as the fast boat for boarding, the water cannons, the search and rescue capabilities, etc coupled to a light sensor and weapons suit, something like what is in the Molniya class.

Example, just imagine a DN-2000 with a modified superstructure to house a 76mm gun, 8 KH-35 missiles, some AK-630s, Sigma-E CMS, etc plus the radars and sensors of the Molniya.

Vietnam pays $90 million for the DN-2000 and I estimate that by adding all these other stuff it would cost $130 million total. See my point? You can have many ships like that and you can build them fast. They are for peacetime duties, patrol and to slog it out with the chinese.
I think there is problem between navy & coast guard ship, some may be
Quality & age of ships
speed
propulsion
range at different speed
Design
Integration of weapons & sensors
Operational cost increases with weapons & sensors
All these difference increases cost of ships from converting ICG ship to navy ship.
So, I think all things will increase cost of DN-2000 to at least $300 million if I'm not wrong, experts please help.
 
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I almost always see speed for considering range, I was thinking about righting speed here too but forgot, I thought this range was at speed of 15 kn.

No, I was thinking only about Vietnam.
After seeing this range I have to accept that Vietnam need these ships also ICG also must have such ships as threat for India is also no less than Vietnam.

Fast interceptor crafts are needed for speed as these are fast, cheaper & effective against piracy.

I think there is problem between navy & coast guard ship, some may be
Quality & age of ships
speed
propulsion
range at different speed
Design
Integration of weapons & sensors
Operational cost increases with weapons & sensors
All these difference increases cost of ships from converting ICG ship to navy ship.
So, I think all things will increase cost of DN-2000 to at least $300 million if I'm not wrong, experts please help.

Let me tell you how I came out with the figure of $130 million.
The DN-2000 is $90 million.
The Molniya cost to Vietnam $50 million as I just heard from @BoQ77 the other day, so I figure that from that 50 million, 40 million is for weapons and sensors.
90 + 40 million = $130 million

I think $300 million is too much.

Think about a Saryu class OPV with missiles, can't be $300 million.

Lets see what the experts say, @Penguin
 
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Let me tell you how I came out with the figure of $130 million.
The DN-2000 is $90 million.
The Molniya cost to Vietnam $50 million as I just heard from @BoQ77 the other day, so I figure that from that 50 million, 40 million is for weapons and sensors.
90 + 40 million = $130 million

I think $300 million is too much.

Think about a Saryu class OPV with missiles, can't be $300 million.

Lets see what the experts say, @Penguin
You know 5 x Molniya = Saryu class OPV by size, when weapons added displacement will increase
Pipavav NOPV Class are follow on of Saryu class, five ships are going to cost ₹2,600 crores (about $553.5 million) at the time of signing contract, today ₹26,000 million equals 389.458 million Dollar.
Molniya class is old design, may be that reason it's cheaper but I think cost increases significantly after integration of weapons & sensors.
Oh you might have forgotten sensors required for navy ships are different from CG ships, sensors on Molniya may not be great.
Help please.
 
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South_China_Sea_claims_map.jpg


Much (I'ld say well over half) of Vietnams' EEZ is contested by China. Note that all the contested Spratly islands are near the edge of the VIetnamese EEZ, and often nearer to Malaysia than to Vietnam itself

Vietnam EEZ as regulated by UNCLOS means 200 nm from baseline, and some islands of Paracels and Spratlys.
It is not as above imaginery.
China now challenge even most of 200nm Eez of Vietnam, not only overlapped Eez near Hainan, they based on their 9 dashed line to even challenge Malaysia Philippines Eez which has no chance to overlap China 200nm EEZ.
 
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You know 5 x Molniya = Saryu class OPV by size, when weapons added displacement will increase
Pipavav NOPV Class are follow on of Saryu class, five ships are going to cost ₹2,600 crores (about $553.5 million) at the time of signing contract, today ₹26,000 million equals 389.458 million Dollar.
Molniya class is old design, may be that reason it's cheaper but I think cost increases significantly after integration of weapons & sensors.
Oh you might have forgotten sensors required for navy ships are different from CG ships, sensors on Molniya may not be great.
Help please.

I understand you.

Let me give you a good point of reference:

The ship used by the chinese navy to patrol the south china sea is the type 56 corvette, 95 meters, its designed to be simple, cheap to buy and cheap to operate and be produced in large numbers. I don't remember the cost now, but it was very, very cheap. That ship illustrates my point.

Vietnam EEZ as regulated by UNCLOS means 200 nm from baseline, and some islands of Paracels and Spratlys.
It is not as above imaginery.

What happened to you? I saw you as banned just a few hours ago.
 
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just wake up and find no warning at all. If any it is the work of the guy beidou with the readiness to act of the Chinese mod.

If I update the crash of Chinese J10, they would report me about flame baiting.
 
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just wake up and find no warning at all. If any it is the work of the guy beidou with the readiness to act of the Chinese mod.

If I update the crash of Chinese J10, they would report me about flame baiting.

Wow, I suggest to not get involved with the chinese man, you can't win, you'll get banned all the time.

just wake up and find no warning at all. If any it is the work of the guy beidou with the readiness to act of the Chinese mod.

If I update the crash of Chinese J10, they would report me about flame baiting.

I want to ask you something; the other day you said the price of the Molniya is $50 million, is that include everything? All sensors and weapons included?
 
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Wow, I suggest to not get involved with the chinese man, you can't win, you'll get banned all the time.



I want to ask you something; the other day you said the price of the Molniya is $50 million, is that include everything? All sensors and weapons included?
As I said we go for Molniya because Kh35. Without it, Molniya not worth 10 million, as you see TT400 cost less than 2 million without arms.

Samar class is listed as having 6000 nmi range`and Samarth as 6000 nmi at 12 knots. DN-2000 is listed a 5000nmi at unknown economic speed. You don't need more range for greater 'reach' but you might need it for sustained presence in an area i.e. 'endurance'. Recall the example of the Phillippines that Carlosa gave earlier: if you have to leave before the opponent has to, they might get the area. Also, it is not unheard of that coast guards ships of different nations get physical, so you might need sufficient mass to match some ships. Moving from big a$$ to bigger a$$ ships.

See http://www.vietnambreakingnews.com/...rejects-chinas-east-sea-wrongful-allegations/

This puppy is 3000 ton.
213851fvammci2e0atcems.jpg


These are 4000 ton
china-coast-guard.png



chinese-ship-follows-vietnamese-coastguard-in-the-data.jpg

SCS_DSLG.jpg

20140623125823-1.jpg

NrPSt4lr.jpg


image.jpg

Wq3R8R0G.jpg


And vice versa too!


For the Dutch Navy, the Holland class OPV are an economy measure as similarly sized M-frigates are much more expensive to operate and use in anti-piracy (rather than actual warfare) and so all but 2 (of 8) were decommissioned, replaced with 4 OPV's and let go to foreign navies e.g. Belgium (2) , Portugal (2), and Chile (2). The size of the ship has to do with our need to e.g. patrol against drugs in the Caribbian (autonomous overseas parts of our kingdom) and international commitments in support of anti-piracy ops e.g. in the Arabian Sea.
In 2014 oil rig incident, VCG use TT400 and smaller ships in frontline, while DN2000 (only 1 available ) and a donated 1400ton ship from Korea are for command center.
Smaller ships must come back home port very often. This year an oil tanker commissioned, 7 more DN2000 and nearly 10 more TT400 for VCG, excluding some more donated shipS from Japan as 6006, 6008
 
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As I said we go for Molniya because Kh35. Without it, Molniya not worth 10 million, as you see TT400 cost less than 2 million without arms.

My question was about the price, I have a reason why I'm asking you this. Are you sure that the price of $50 million is correct and that it covers everything including all sensors and weapons?
 
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Wow, I suggest to not get involved with the chinese man, you can't win, you'll get banned all the time.

You are saying this because you are not Vietnamese. You are just basically telling the Vietnamese that, yes, the forum bias is in favor of the Chinese and that they are free to troll VN , etc. but just let them be so and ignore it. Just come and converse with us on VN military and let the Chinese members free to troll and insult you guys.

For you as a non-Vietnamese you can easily say that, but for most Vietnamese its unacceptable. That is the reason why this forum doesn’t have many Vietnamese members, the VN military thread is just mostly consist of the same 2 guy who are active. But you keep telling the few remaining VN members to keep conversing with you and let the Chinese free to troll and insult because engaging them “you will get banned so you cant win”.

Its true the China Far East section moderation is biased and filled with immature Chinese kids with no capability to think logically (the few intelligent Chinese members had already left PDF), but its their forum their rule...thats why I dont post much anymore and why I suggested that other Viet members just leave this place and let them be. But you can feel its perfectly alright that Chinese members can troll and encourage the Viet members to ignore and tolerate the trolling and insult and converse with you instead.
 
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You are saying this because you are not Vietnamese. You are just basically telling the Vietnamese that, yes, the forum bias is in favor of the Chinese and that they are free to troll VN , etc. but just let them be so and ignore it. Just come and converse with us on VN military and let the Chinese members free to troll and insult you guys.

For you as a non-Vietnamese you can easily say that, but for most Vietnamese its unacceptable. That is the reason why this forum doesn’t have many Vietnamese members, the VN military thread is just mostly consist of the same 2 guy who are active. But you keep telling the few remaining VN members to keep conversing with you and let the Chinese free to troll and insult because engaging them “you will get banned so you cant win”.

Its true the China Far East section moderation is biased and filled with immature Chinese kids with no capability to think logically (the few intelligent Chinese members had already left PDF), but its their forum their rule...thats why I dont post much anymore and why I suggested that other Viet members just leave this place and let them be. But you can feel its perfectly alright that Chinese members can troll and encourage the Viet members to ignore and tolerate the trolling and insult and converse with you instead.

Its not so simple as you mentioned; I said that as advice specifically for him because he is particularly been targeted by the chinese mod and he used to be banned from this forum for a long time, are you aware of that? Is it better to be banned long term? I don't think you can support the Vietnamese cause much if you are not here at al because you are banned.

I had my share of big fights with the chinese in the past and I just find it not worth it, the more you get involved, the more trolling you get.

I respect your position, but I keep my advise to him, that is specific to him, for the specific reasons that I just mentioned.

Same as you, I'm not here that much for the same reasons as you. I actually get more involved in the Indian forum. I prefer to ignore the chinese trolls rather than to feed them.

Anyway, anybody make their own decisions and of course its very right to fight the chinese as much s you can, but I would prefer to see @BoQ77 here rather than not see him for a year as was before because of the ban.
 
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