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Vietnam ordered stealth destroyers P28 of India

Wrong, the Sigma deal, as it was announced, was for 2 ships, not 4. Both the money and the Euro amount are clearly mentioned in dozens of articles and it was debated a lot by the Vietnamese members in PDF and myself because those 2 Sigma ships are quite expensive.

Don't know where that article got that figure of 4 ships, but you can look at the contract announcement from Damen.



Not at all, you force me to go out of context in order to respond to your out of context replies man. I'm the one that keeps putting the emphasis on the original context.
Put your source quote in thank you.

It may just mean that the price in the contract announcement included other things than just the ships.

With the Moroccan ships, first there was a deal with Damen, then with Thales, which makes the Damen price alone unrepresentative.

Navy recognition also reported 2 ships built in Holland and 2 locally. So that makes two unrelated sources, one in the profession and the other in the anti armstrade corner, both pointing to 4 ships. I've also given you the prices of Moroccan and Indonesian ships, they too are much lower.

F. context. It is not the issue. My issue is with people assuming you can park just anyting on p28 in a heart beat. And I take issue with people dissing Gepard and Sigma just because they don't understand what they are for. Yes, if your intent and primary mission is to go out an face other surface combattants, that is one thing. Safeguarding your SLOCs against submarines is another, here a lesser air and surface self defence capability is required: other assets are to provide air cover, for example.

Yes, it is a shoestring navy, but still, my point was about needing to have ships during peacetime since situations can arise where you need them, but still without expecting hostilities. Old warships can do the job very well in such circumstances.



You are not up to date on Barak 8 man, India already announced the range was extended to 90-100 km as a result of trials where it was tested up to 90 km.

The Indian members here can tell you plenty about that.

The Janes report says might, a possibility, not a established fact from actual tests, that's called speculation. India already tested Barak 8 to 90 km.
And you're not up to date on Sea Ceptor. I don't care about what members say. Real sources?
 
Put your source quote in thank you.

It may just mean that the price in the contract announcement included other things than just the ships.

With the Moroccan ships, first there was a deal with Damen, then with Thales, which makes the Damen price alone unrepresentative.

Navy recognition also reported 2 ships built in Holland and 2 locally. So that makes two unrelated sources, one in the profession and the other in the anti armstrade corner, both pointing to 4 ships. I've also given you the prices of Moroccan and Indonesian ships, they too are much lower.

F. context. It is not the issue. My issue is with people assuming you can park just anyting on p28 in a heart beat. And I take issue with people dissing Gepard and Sigma just because they don't understand what they are for. Yes, if your intent and primary mission is to go out an face other surface combattants, that is one thing. Safeguarding your SLOCs against submarines is another, here a lesser air and surface self defence capability is required: other assets are to provide air cover, for example.


And you're not up to date on Sea Ceptor. I don't care about what members say. Real sources?

Yes, I'll look for the Damen contract announcement, but to give you a quick heads up since this is something that we in Vietnam have been following a lot, the negotiations were mentioned as for 4 ships for a long time, but when Damen actually announced agreement on a contract, it was for 2 ships for 600 million euros.

I'm up to date on Sea Captor, but a 60 km range mentioned as a possibility is not the same as Barak 8 trials where it was tested to 90 km. One is speculation, the other one is a fact, that's very different. And still, 90 is much better than 60 right?

Yes, I know that best air defense is in layers, but if 1 missile can take care of 2 or 3 layers in a small ship, that's very nice, isn't it?

Yes, I jumped into saying that should be no problem installing a Brahmos VLS in the deck space dedicated to the RBU-6000s and maybe I was wrong, maybe it needs a little bit of stretching of the ship although we can't confirm either way because we don't have the measurements. Are you happy now? Is that what you wanted to hear?

Put your source quote in thank you.

Here is the announcement, its even in Dutch man, just one correction, its 2 ships for 500 million euros. http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/08/22/nederlandse-werf-bouwt-twee-oorlogsschepen-voor-vietnam I'd like to point out that at the time of the announcement, the Euro was much stronger with respect to the Dollar, so the price in dollars was high (almost $350 million). That would look different now.

Damen Shipyards has reached an agreement with Vietnam for the supply of two corvettes to the Vietnamese Navy, as the Gorinchem yard confirmed today.
The deal, which by the end of this year to be clinched, officially by both countries, the Dutch business community, especially the shipyard of Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding (DSNS) in Flushing, pose thousand man-years of work.

On the value of the contract does not disclose Damen, but an insider says that is half a billion euros. The Dutch government is involved in funding.

DAMEN 'HOPEFUL' ON MORE ORDERS
The contract involves the construction of two corvettes of the SIGMA-class, type 9814 - which is a length of 98 meters and a width of 14 meters. The ships have a potent equipment including a Oto Melara rapid fire gun, anti-ship missiles and launch vertically Mica missiles. Within the transaction, Thales Netherlands the intended supplier of electronic equipment, including radar, sensors, fire- control systems and equipment for command and control.

About the building program are no details made public, but it seems logical that one of the two SIGMA's on the Flushing site is being built and the second ship in a Vietnamese shipyard. Damen's been almost twenty years in the Southeast Asian country, where the company five shipbuilding and repair yards and operates a large yard at Haiphong under development. Damen says, to have more Vietnamese orders. Hopeful "

EARLIER CORVETTES TO MOROCCO AND INDONESIA
The purchase of two modern corvettes fits into the ambitious program of modernization of the armed forces of Vietnam in the light of the assertive foreign policy and military rapid expansion of neighboring China. Vietnam and China dispute include the sovereignty of islands in the South China Sea, including large oil reserves are suspected. Vietnam was decades big buyer of Russian arms industry, which is why the supply of Western, Dutch, defense may be called remarkable.

The SIGMA is the export market as a sales success. Previously sold the yard three such corvettes and five to Morocco to Indonesia, in several varieties. More countries have shown interest in naval vessels.

--------------------------------------------------------

Indian members, can you bring up a source that mentions the Barak 8 range increased to 90 km as a result of trials? Mr. Penguin wants to see sources.

@Gen Padmanabhan @MKC @PARIKRAMA @Water Car Engineer

F. context. It is not the issue. My issue is with people assuming you can park just anyting on p28 in a heart beat. And I take issue with people dissing Gepard and Sigma just because they don't understand what they are for. Yes, if your intent and primary mission is to go out an face other surface combattants, that is one thing. Safeguarding your SLOCs against submarines is another, here a lesser air and surface self defence capability is required: other assets are to provide air cover, for example.

I understand what the Sigma and the Gepard are for, but I also understand the needs of the Vietnamese Navy and the threat they face so I advocate for different ships. The P28 customized for Vietnam as described in the article fits what Vietnam needs much better than the Gepard or Sigma for about the same price.

There are cheaper options just for the role of patrol during peacetime.

In my view Vietnam needs to have a good number of cheap ships such as OPVs (armed with anti ship missiles, etc) for the role of peacetime patrol and a possible face off with the chinese such as with the oil rig episode or what the chinese did in Scarborough Shoal, those episodes don't involve actual fighting. Here the emphasis is on CHEAP and QUANTITY with light weapon systems (right now Vietnam does not have a single ship for that role), same goes for the coast guard. Damen is doing a great job for Vietnam with the coast guard ships by the way.

To fight with the chinese, Vietnam needs ships with a lot of firepower, that's why I like that customized P28 for Vietnam. I feel Vietnam needs to use the Israeli concept of small ships armed to the teeth. And Vietnam needs plenty of subs as a priority since they are the only ones that have the best chance to survive and inflict serious losses to the chinese. Vietnam also needs a cheap ship for littoral ASW. In my view, the Molniya ships are the only surface ships in the Vietnamese navy that actually fit the right role so far, even that the hull is a very old design.

The Gepard and the Sigma don't fit either role, too little firepower (especially on air defense which means they can't survive) and too expensive compared to a missile armed OPV (as an example, a Saryu class OPV armed with anti ship missiles). For the price of a Gepard / Sigma, you can build 2-3 such OPVs.

So you understand my view? Feel free to comment.
 
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Yes, I'll look for the Damen contract announcement, but to give you a quick heads up since this is something that we in Vietnam have been following a lot, the negotiations were mentioned as for 4 ships for a long time, but when Damen actually announced agreement on a contract, it was for 2 ships for 600 million euros.

I'm up to date on Sea Captor, but a 60 km range mentioned as a possibility is not the same as Barak 8 trials where it was tested to 90 km. One is speculation, the other one is a fact, that's very different. And still, 90 is much better than 60 right?

Yes, I know that best air defense is in layers, but if 1 missile can take care of 2 or 3 layers in a small ship, that's very nice, isn't it?

Yes, I jumped into saying that should be no problem installing a Brahmos VLS in the deck space dedicated to the RBU-6000s and maybe I was wrong, maybe it needs a little bit of stretching of the ship although we can't confirm either way because we don't have the measurements. Are you happy now? Is that what you wanted to hear?



Here is the announcement, its even in Dutch man, just one correction, its 2 ships for 500 million euros. http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/08/22/nederlandse-werf-bouwt-twee-oorlogsschepen-voor-vietnam I'd like to point out that at the time of the announcement, the Euro was much stronger with respect to the Dollar, so the price in dollars was high (almost $350 million). That would look different now.

Damen Shipyards has reached an agreement with Vietnam for the supply of two corvettes to the Vietnamese Navy, as the Gorinchem yard confirmed today.
The deal, which by the end of this year to be clinched, officially by both countries, the Dutch business community, especially the shipyard of Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding (DSNS) in Flushing, pose thousand man-years of work.

On the value of the contract does not disclose Damen, but an insider says that is half a billion euros. The Dutch government is involved in funding.

DAMEN 'HOPEFUL' ON MORE ORDERS
The contract involves the construction of two corvettes of the SIGMA-class, type 9814 - which is a length of 98 meters and a width of 14 meters. The ships have a potent equipment including a Oto Melara rapid fire gun, anti-ship missiles and launch vertically Mica missiles. Within the transaction, Thales Netherlands the intended supplier of electronic equipment, including radar, sensors, fire- control systems and equipment for command and control.

About the building program are no details made public, but it seems logical that one of the two SIGMA's on the Flushing site is being built and the second ship in a Vietnamese shipyard. Damen's been almost twenty years in the Southeast Asian country, where the company five shipbuilding and repair yards and operates a large yard at Haiphong under development. Damen says, to have more Vietnamese orders. Hopeful "

EARLIER CORVETTES TO MOROCCO AND INDONESIA
The purchase of two modern corvettes fits into the ambitious program of modernization of the armed forces of Vietnam in the light of the assertive foreign policy and military rapid expansion of neighboring China. Vietnam and China dispute include the sovereignty of islands in the South China Sea, including large oil reserves are suspected. Vietnam was decades big buyer of Russian arms industry, which is why the supply of Western, Dutch, defense may be called remarkable.

The SIGMA is the export market as a sales success. Previously sold the yard three such corvettes and five to Morocco to Indonesia, in several varieties. More countries have shown interest in naval vessels.

--------------------------------------------------------

Indian members, can you bring up a source that mentions the Barak 8 range increased to 90 km as a result of trials? Mr. Penguin wants to see sources.

@Gen Padmanabhan @MKC @PARIKRAMA @Water Car Engineer



I understand what the Sigma and the Gepard are for, but I also understand the needs of the Vietnamese Navy and the threat they face so I advocate for different ships. The P28 customized for Vietnam as described in the article fits what Vietnam needs much better than the Gepard or Sigma for about the same price.

There are cheaper options just for the role of patrol during peacetime.

In my view Vietnam needs to have a good number of cheap ships such as OPVs (armed with anti ship missiles, etc) for the role of peacetime patrol and a possible face off with the chinese such as with the oil rig episode or what the chinese did in Scarborough Shoal, those episodes don't involve actual fighting. Here the emphasis is on CHEAP and QUANTITY with light weapon systems (right now Vietnam does not have a single ship for that role), same goes for the coast guard. Damen is doing a great job for Vietnam with the coast guard ships by the way.

To fight with the chinese, Vietnam needs ships with a lot of firepower, that's why I like that customized P28 for Vietnam. I feel Vietnam needs to use the Israeli concept of small ships armed to the teeth. And Vietnam needs plenty of subs as a priority since they are the only ones that have the best chance to survive and inflict serious losses to the chinese. Vietnam also needs a cheap ship for littoral ASW. In my view, the Molniya ships are the only surface ships in the Vietnamese navy that actually fit the right role so far, even that the hull is a very old design.

The Gepard and the Sigma don't fit either role, too little firepower (especially on air defense which means they can't survive) and too expensive compared to a missile armed OPV (as an example, a Saryu class OPV armed with anti ship missiles). For the price of a Gepard / Sigma, you can build 2-3 such OPVs.

So you understand my view? Feel free to comment.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/09/exclusive-indo-israeli-lrsam-range.html
@Penguin These are very authenticated sources, these are not something like Janes which do analysis on something else and conclude something totally different.
 
Wrong, the Sigma deal, as it was announced, was for 2 ships, not 4. Both the money and the Euro amount are clearly mentioned in dozens of articles and it was debated a lot by the Vietnamese members in PDF and myself because those 2 Sigma ships are quite expensive.

Don't know where that article got that figure of 4 ships, but you can look at the contract announcement from Damen.



Not at all, you force me to go out of context in order to respond to your out of context replies man. I'm the one that keeps putting the emphasis on the original context.
personally I don´t like sigma corvette, either. the ship is ways too small, too weak.
if sigma, the navy should select sigma frigate and destroyer.
 
personally I don´t like sigma corvette, either. the ship is ways too small, too weak.
if sigma, the navy should select sigma frigate and destroyer.

Exactly my point and I feel the same about the Gepard, that's why I keep saying that those ships can't survive and if they can't survive, then why to spend $350 million per ship? There is better use for that money.

Either use the money for cheaper OPV ships to patrol or get ships that are made for serious combat and have a better chance to survive.
 
On 6 February 2008, Morocco signed a USD$1.2 billion contract with Schelde Naval Shipbuilding for two Light frigate SIGMA 9813 and one Light frigate SIGMA 10145. A subsequent contract was signed on 1 April 2008 with Thales Nederland for the supply and installation of the command and control and sensor package for the ships.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma-class_corvette

Indonesia signed a purchase of one Sigma 10514 frigate on June 2012 worth USD 220 mio (€168 mio). The value of €345 mio likely a purchase of two frigates (photo : Defense Studies)
http://defense-studies.blogspot.nl/2013/06/dutch-firm-gets-green-light-for.html

I'm not sure on what you mean by "can't match with same weapon systems'. I also fail to see why I have to prove anything about these ships. I started out discussing whether it would be possible to put Brahmos and Barak-8 on P28. Kamorta is a nice ship but not a miracle of sorts. It's just a ship, like many others. I'll square off with it in a Dutch M-frigate any day.
Sigma class ships
Displacement: 1,692 tons
Speed: 28 kn
Range: At 18 kn (33 km/h): 3,600 nmi (6,700 km)
Armament:
Aviation facilities: landing pad, optional hangar

Kamorta class corvette
Displacement: 3400 tonnes
Speed: 25 kn (46 km/h)
Range: 3,500 nmi (6,500 km) at 18 kn (33 km/h)
Armament:
  • Same as Sigma-class(can carry easily)
Aircraft carried: 1 Westland Sea King Mk.42B

I don't know how much different will be Sigma 9814(2,150 tons) from this.
I don't know how much was cost for VPN but I replied based on Indonesian variants in which you can buy 2 Kamortas in 1 ships, I'm saying Vietnam can get better in much lower cost.
I'm not claiming Kamorta is super-ship neither claiming it is good ship but I was saying VPN need better with limited budget which Kamorta can provide.
If you remember I asked you if inclined BrahMos launcher can be used on P28 or not because we don't know much about this design whether it can accommodate BrahMos VLS or not(which I think it can) but I'm saying Sigma costs more than Kamorta with less capability if it fitted with same weapons & sensors.
The phillippines navy operated ww2 eraships. It is not a good comparison.
The Sigma deal with Vietnam would have involved local construction iirc. Much like is the case in Indonesia with PAL.
http://www.damen.com/news/2014/03/damen_song_cam_shipyard_opened_in_vietnam
http://www.damen.com/companies/damen-song-cam-shipyard
The first two ships will be built in Vlissingen (Netherlands), and the last two (options) will be built in Vietnam, under Dutch supervision.
http://navyrecognition.com/index.ph...4-corvettes-for-vietnamese-navy-revealed.html

As for price

http://www.stopwapenhandel.org/node/1228
600/4=150 million euro = about 195 million dollar at that time.
GRSE is also giving license to build ships in future to Philippines in 340 million dollars with two ships.
Cost of Sigma & Kamorta varies same as Euro & Indian Rupee are same against dollar.
Sure, ignore the Janes report trials showing on 60km capability of CAMM. Barak-8 is not a miracle weapon system. Good defence comes in layers, of which missiles are only one.

Barak-8 90km? You're not confused with 70?
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-barak-8-long-range-missile-from-ins-kolkata/
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/naval-barak-8-surface-air-missiles/

In time, there will be the 60+ km Umkhonto-R. Meanwhile see Sea Ceptor ER, ITIS-T SLM etc. Perfectly good alternatives. Range isn't everything, it is just one factor in the equation.

Meanwhile, I hope you are smart enough to understand that I at no point suggested Barak-8 is a poor missile.

Yes, I'll look for the Damen contract announcement, but to give you a quick heads up since this is something that we in Vietnam have been following a lot, the negotiations were mentioned as for 4 ships for a long time, but when Damen actually announced agreement on a contract, it was for 2 ships for 600 million euros.

I'm up to date on Sea Captor, but a 60 km range mentioned as a possibility is not the same as Barak 8 trials where it was tested to 90 km. One is speculation, the other one is a fact, that's very different. And still, 90 is much better than 60 right?

Yes, I know that best air defense is in layers, but if 1 missile can take care of 2 or 3 layers in a small ship, that's very nice, isn't it?
Range of Barak 8 is 0.5–90km, it also can be used as CIWS against supersonic missiles.
Another advantage of Barak 8 is can be used as anti-aircraft missile flying 80km away from ship, can CAMM-ER do that?
Yes, I jumped into saying that should be no problem installing a Brahmos VLS in the deck space dedicated to the RBU-6000s and maybe I was wrong, maybe it needs a little bit of stretching of the ship although we can't confirm either way because we don't have the measurements. Are you happy now? Is that what you wanted to hear?

Here is the announcement, its even in Dutch man, just one correction, its 2 ships for 500 million euros. http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/08/22/nederlandse-werf-bouwt-twee-oorlogsschepen-voor-vietnam I'd like to point out that at the time of the announcement, the Euro was much stronger with respect to the Dollar, so the price in dollars was high (almost $350 million). That would look different now.

Indian members, can you bring up a source that mentions the Barak 8 range increased to 90 km as a result of trials? Mr. Penguin wants to see sources.
cc Times of India
49955849.cms


Another source mentioning range 100km.
 
Sigma class ships
Displacement: 1,692 tons
Speed: 28 kn
Range: At 18 kn (33 km/h): 3,600 nmi (6,700 km)
Armament:
Aviation facilities: landing pad, optional hangar

Kamorta class corvette
Displacement: 3400 tonnes
Speed: 25 kn (46 km/h)
Range: 3,500 nmi (6,500 km) at 18 kn (33 km/h)
Armament:
  • Same as Sigma-class(can carry easily)
Aircraft carried: 1 Westland Sea King Mk.42B

I don't know how much different will be Sigma 9814(2,150 tons) from this.
I don't know how much was cost for VPN but I replied based on Indonesian variants in which you can buy 2 Kamortas in 1 ships, I'm saying Vietnam can get better in much lower cost.
I'm not claiming Kamorta is super-ship neither claiming it is good ship but I was saying VPN need better with limited budget which Kamorta can provide.
If you remember I asked you if inclined BrahMos launcher can be used on P28 or not because we don't know much about this design whether it can accommodate BrahMos VLS or not(which I think it can) but I'm saying Sigma costs more than Kamorta with less capability if it fitted with same weapons & sensors.

GRSE is also giving license to build ships in future to Philippines in 340 million dollars with two ships.
Cost of Sigma & Kamorta varies same as Euro & Indian Rupee are same against dollar.



Range of Barak 8 is 0.5–90km, it also can be used as CIWS against supersonic missiles.
Another advantage of Barak 8 is can be used as anti-aircraft missile flying 80km away from ship, can CAMM-ER do that?





cc Times of India
49955849.cms


Another source mentioning range 100km.

Thank you for the source and comments :tup::tup::tup: Dhanyavad
 
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/09/exclusive-indo-israeli-lrsam-range.html
@Penguin These are very authenticated sources, these are not something like Janes which do analysis on something else and conclude something totally different.
Thanx. Although my trust in an institution that has existed since 1898 will remain higher than that in a single person's internet blog (even if it is award winning), whose domain dates from 2013.

personally I don´t like sigma corvette, either. the ship is ways too small, too weak.
if sigma, the navy should select sigma frigate and destroyer.
There is no Sigma destroyer. The Sigma Frigates are 10513 and 10514 of the Moroccan and Indonesian navies respectively. They displace 2,335 tons and 2,365 tons respectively, and measure 105.11m x 13.02m x 3.75m and 105.11m x 14.02m x 3.75m respectively. Then there are two versions of the Crossover, called the 5300 ton Crossover 131 Combattant and the 5600 ton Crossover 139 Fast Combattant, which are Absalon-like multirole ships. Finally, there is the LCF aka Zeven Provincien class frigate of 6500 ton, which is a Royal Schelde product for the Royal Dutch Navy, not exported.
 
I don't know how much different will be Sigma 9814(2,150 tons) from this.
If one is deciding on a new ship, then one is not limited to previous types or offers. Hence there is no reason why Vietnam would have to limit itself to the 9814. Comparing a small ship to a large ship will always favor the large ship e.g. Saar 5 or K130 Braunschweig class corvette or MEKO-A100 relative to P28 or MEKO-A200

I don't know how much was cost for VPN but I replied based on Indonesian variants in which you can buy 2 Kamortas in 1 ships, I'm saying Vietnam can get better in much lower cost.
In the case of Indonesia, there is local assembly by PAL of 2 Sigma 10514 class frigates and local production of most (but not all) ship modules. This was not the case with the earlier Sigma 9113 corvettes. As the case of Morocco informs us, sometimes a price refers to Damen but there is a separate contract (and price) with Thales. Other cases often show inclusion of various training, support, maintenance services, or spares or ordnance. Are you sure what the figure for the two Indonesian 10514s does and does not entail?

The article http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/08/22/nederlandse-werf-bouwt-twee-oorlogsschepen-voor-vietnam actually states that with the 2 ships for Vietnam deal, the deal may be worth up to 500 million. It also suggests one of the two would be built in Vietnam.

Range of Barak 8 is 0.5–90km,
Against what type of target, at what height? Recall earth curvature, radar horizon etc.

it also can be used as CIWS against supersonic missiles.
Noone disputed that

Another advantage of Barak 8 is can be used as anti-aircraft missile flying 80km away from ship, can CAMM-ER do that?
If a boosterless CAMM can possibly reach out to 60km, why couldn't a boosted CAMM-ER? Same as with Barak-8 and Barak-8ER. Interesting here you refer to anti-aircraft in combination with 80km.



cc Times of India
49955849.cms


Another source mentioning range 100km.
Does 'extended 100km range missile' refer to boosted or unboosted missile?
 
If one is deciding on a new ship, then one is not limited to previous types or offers. Hence there is no reason why Vietnam would have to limit itself to the 9814. Comparing a small ship to a large ship will always favor the large ship e.g. Saar 5 or K130 Braunschweig class corvette or MEKO-A100 relative to P28 or MEKO-A200


In the case of Indonesia, there is local assembly by PAL of 2 Sigma 10514 class frigates and local production of most (but not all) ship modules. This was not the case with the earlier Sigma 9113 corvettes. As the case of Morocco informs us, sometimes a price refers to Damen but there is a separate contract (and price) with Thales. Other cases often show inclusion of various training, support, maintenance services, or spares or ordnance. Are you sure what the figure for the two Indonesian 10514s does and does not entail?

The article http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/08/22/nederlandse-werf-bouwt-twee-oorlogsschepen-voor-vietnam actually states that with the 2 ships for Vietnam deal, the deal may be worth up to 500 million. It also suggests one of the two would be built in Vietnam.


Against what type of target, at what height? Recall earth curvature, radar horizon etc.


Noone disputed that


If a boosterless CAMM can possibly reach out to 60km, why couldn't a boosted CAMM-ER? Same as with Barak-8 and Barak-8ER. Interesting here you refer to anti-aircraft in combination with 80km.




Does 'extended 100km range missile' refer to boosted or unboosted missile?
It's not extended 100 km range missile per say BARAK-8, rather designers underestimated it's range potential initially but after trials it was found that it could reach upto 100 kms. Kindly note it's basic version BARAK8, not booster version BARAK-8 ER which was initially estimated for 150 km range, however seeing the performance of BARAK-8 it is speculated that it might reach 180-200 km range but that is just speculation only as BARAK 8ER is yet to tested.
 
Sigma class ships
Displacement: 1,692 tons
Speed: 28 kn
Range: At 18 kn (33 km/h): 3,600 nmi (6,700 km)
Armament:
Aviation facilities: landing pad, optional hangar

Kamorta class corvette
Displacement: 3400 tonnes
Speed: 25 kn (46 km/h)
Range: 3,500 nmi (6,500 km) at 18 kn (33 km/h)
Armament:
  • Same as Sigma-class(can carry easily)
Aircraft carried: 1 Westland Sea King Mk.42B

I don't know how much different will be Sigma 9814(2,150 tons) from this.
I don't know how much was cost for VPN but I replied based on Indonesian variants in which you can buy 2 Kamortas in 1 ships, I'm saying Vietnam can get better in much lower cost.
I'm not claiming Kamorta is super-ship neither claiming it is good ship but I was saying VPN need better with limited budget which Kamorta can provide.
If you remember I asked you if inclined BrahMos launcher can be used on P28 or not because we don't know much about this design whether it can accommodate BrahMos VLS or not(which I think it can) but I'm saying Sigma costs more than Kamorta with less capability if it fitted with same weapons & sensors.

GRSE is also giving license to build ships in future to Philippines in 340 million dollars with two ships.
Cost of Sigma & Kamorta varies same as Euro & Indian Rupee are same against dollar.



Range of Barak 8 is 0.5–90km, it also can be used as CIWS against supersonic missiles.
Another advantage of Barak 8 is can be used as anti-aircraft missile flying 80km away from ship, can CAMM-ER do that?.

Another issue with Sigma (which is no fault of Damen, but it is what it is) is that it comes with expensive French missiles as standard configuration, Mica and Exocet when compared to the cost of KH-35 ($1.7 million for VN to self build) and Barak 8 ($1.1 million), the difference starts to add many millions real fast. @Viet
 
If one is deciding on a new ship, then one is not limited to previous types or offers. Hence there is no reason why Vietnam would have to limit itself to the 9814. Comparing a small ship to a large ship will always favor the large ship e.g. Saar 5 or K130 Braunschweig class corvette or MEKO-A100 relative to P28 or MEKO-A200
Yes, Vietnam has many options including Talwar class, FREMM, P17A but you know about VPN's budget.
In the case of Indonesia, there is local assembly by PAL of 2 Sigma 10514 class frigates and local production of most (but not all) ship modules. This was not the case with the earlier Sigma 9113 corvettes. As the case of Morocco informs us, sometimes a price refers to Damen but there is a separate contract (and price) with Thales. Other cases often show inclusion of various training, support, maintenance services, or spares or ordnance. Are you sure what the figure for the two Indonesian 10514s does and does not entail?

The article http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/08/22/nederlandse-werf-bouwt-twee-oorlogsschepen-voor-vietnam actually states that with the 2 ships for Vietnam deal, the deal may be worth up to 500 million. It also suggests one of the two would be built in Vietnam.
It was about only one in Vietnam may be because cost of ships was increased & you know order is cancelled now, do you know reason?
Actually, when GRSE offered Kamorta to PhN, I was 100% sure GRSE won't even allowed to compete because India-Philippines relations aren't that good but GRSE is now close to signing contract for tho ships for just about $350 million with licence for future ships.
 
Yes, Vietnam has many options including Talwar class, FREMM, P17A but you know about VPN's budget.
Well, there are some smaller options too. E.g. Meko-A200 Valour class, Formidable class. A potent small package is the < 1000 ton Baynunah class of the UAE navy.


It was about only one in Vietnam may be because cost of ships was increased & you know order is cancelled now, do you know reason?
In that article, dates augest 2013, of those 2 ships only 1 in Vietnam. Previously, talk was of 4 ships, with 2 in Vietnam

2011: 4 ships
http://defense-update.com/20111023_...our-sigma-corvettes-from-the-netherlands.html

From november 2013:
It was announced in October 2011 that Damen shipyard in Vlissingen, Netherlands will build four Sigma corvettes for the Vietnamese Navy. The first two ships will be built in Vlissingen, and the last two (options) will be built in Vietnam, under Dutch supervision.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...a-missiles-for-its-sigma-9814-corvettes-.html

And again in march 2014: 2 + 2
http://navyrecognition.com/index.ph...4-corvettes-for-vietnamese-navy-revealed.html

Anyway, is there any other independent source that has confirmed that Vietnam will acquire 6 P28 variants? Other than the article in post 1, and clones thereof?
 
Well, there are some smaller options too. E.g. Meko-A200 Valour class, Formidable class. A potent small package is the < 1000 ton Baynunah class of the UAE navy.
These are great ship but RAM is not available for VPN, these ships cost $170 million per ship.
India exported 1 Kora-class corvette(1350 tonnes) to Mauritius in $50M in 2014 without weapons except guns.
Range: 4,000 mi (6,400 km) at 16 kn (30 km/h)
Khareef-class corvettes are also very good.
Anyway, is there any other independent source that has confirmed that Vietnam will acquire 6 P28 variants? Other than the article in post 1, and clones thereof?
No, these ships aren't ordered, no one in thread claimed that these ships are ordered. Also, you know source is claiming corvettes as destroyer, so you can guess reliability of source.
 

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