Vietnam ordered stealth destroyers P28 of India

[BoQ77]

The reasons why I was expecting such a ship is because I've heard rumors from different sources, that's all. In terms of what type of ship, well, it would be good for littoral ASW, VN needs something like that, a cheap platform optimized for ASW with minimum anti ship / air defense systems (kind of like 8 KH-35 and some Igla or better). 700 to 1000 tons.

I am afraid that there isnt any ongoing project like that.

 

[Viet]

I think you are giving too much wrong info.
Shivalik-class frigates cost much less than what you are quoting, may be about $340 million according to The Telegraph but inflation plays a bigger role.

Kamorta-class corvettes project, driven by the Navy's Directorate of Indigenisation, has been delayed by two years with a cost overrun from the originally estimated ₹28 billion (US$416 million) to ₹70 billion (US$1 billion), primarily to meet this goal.
So, it's about $250 million per ship today, I think that include developmental costs as recently GRSE has offered almost same ships to Philippines in less than $180 million with sensors without some weapons.

So about $1.5 billion for 6 ships. Such a vessel of 3,500 tons would be called frigate in VN. Sounds ok. But I don't think the ship is suitable to our need as it lacks of antiship missiles and air defence. Too weak. No chance to survive in an environment like the we live in.

When these news came out in 2012, the Kamorta ships were something like 450 million each or so, I don't know if that includes the development cost. The weapon systems that India use in their ships don't include any anti ship missiles or air defense missiles, so the version for Vietnam will be quite different.

I think our navy needs something like Shivali class frigate or destroyer. That will be the next natural development following the Gepard light frigate.

 

[Carlosa]

So about $1.5 billion for 6 ships. Such a vessel of 3,500 tons would be called frigate in VN. Sounds ok. But I don't think the ship is suitable to our need as it lacks of antiship missiles and air defence. Too weak. No chance to survive in an environment like the we live in.


I think our navy needs something like Shivali class frigate or destroyer. That will be the next natural development following the Gepard light frigate.

No man, no problem, the P28 can be customized as needed with Brahmos and Barak 8 as the original article is saying about the P28 ships for Vietnam, that would be very, very ok.
Of course the price for such a version will be higher, but still ok.

I think you are giving too much wrong info.
Shivalik-class frigates cost much less than what you are quoting, may be about $340 million according to The Telegraph but inflation plays a bigger role.

Kamorta-class corvettes project, driven by the Navy's Directorate of Indigenisation, has been delayed by two years with a cost overrun from the originally estimated ₹28 billion (US$416 million) to ₹70 billion (US$1 billion), primarily to meet this goal.
So, it's about $250 million per ship today, I think that include developmental costs as recently GRSE has offered almost same ships to Philippines in less than $180 million with sensors without some weapons.

Thank for the price update, that's much better.

The price that I gave is what I was reading 4 years ago when news of selling P28 ships to India came out, its what was in the press at that time. I think that was the cost of the first ship, which is always much higher. To be exact, the price quoted was $468 million, and that's the price that was listed in the Wikipedia page for the P28 project ships.

With a price of $250 million per ship today for the Indian version, then the version for Vietnam with Brahmos and Barak 8, plus MF / Start radar is probably a $300 million plus. That''s a very ok price for a ship like that.

There's not only Damen but also VARD ( a Fincantieri company ) shipyard in Vietnam ( Vung Tau ).
S-1000 or any surface combatants humors may come from the fact that VARD worked well in Vietnam.

Interesting, I didn't know that Fincantieri had a shipyard in Vietnam. That makes it easy for Vietnam to order ships from them. The S-1000 is quite an ok sub.

 

[MKC]

So about $1.5 billion for 6 ships. Such a vessel of 3,500 tons would be called frigate in VN. Sounds ok. But I don't think the ship is suitable to our need as it lacks antiship missiles and air defence. Too weak. No chance to survive in an environment like the we live in.

It's $1B for first four ships which includes developmental & research cost. If Vietnam orders six ships it cost will be less than $250 million without BrahMos, if BrahMos is added cost will be increased but it will have to remove RBU-6000, so removing RBU-6000 may save some dollar.
Again commodity prices are much low now, not much inflation in India & stronger dollar than Rupee is also decreasing cost of these ships.
That's why GRSE could offer these ships to the Philippines for just $180 million but those ships may be less powerful than Kamorta class also this cost doesn't include some weapons like missiles & may be torpedos too.
You can check specs of PhN requirement.
This ship is called corvette in India because it is may for just one purpose ASW.
OPVs of 3000 tonnes & some 6000 tonnes also called OPV or cutter because they don't have weapons to be called frigate as frigates have more weapons.

I think our navy needs something like Shivalik class frigate or destroyer. That will be the next natural development following the Gepard light frigate.

Shivaliks are estimated to have cost ₹2,300 crore. The entire project of three frigates could cost more than ₹8,000 crore but all these ships were built before 2011.The Telegraph

No man, no problem, the P28 can be customized as needed with Brahmos and Barak 8 as the original article is saying about the P28 ships for Vietnam, that would be very, very ok.
Of course the price for such a version will be higher, but still ok.

None of navies have such ships with such less armaments.

Thank for the price update, that's much better.

The price that I gave is what I was reading 4 years ago when news of selling P28 ships to India came out, its what was in the press at that time. I think that was the cost of the first ship, which is always much higher. To be exact, the price quoted was $468 million and that's also the price still listed in the Wikipedia page for the P28 project ships.

With a price of $250 million per ship today for the Indian version, then the version for Vietnam with Brahmos and Barak 8, plus MF / Start radar is probably a $300 million plus. That''s a very ok price for a ship like that.

From where you got this figure of $468 million? Wikipedia doesn't have this figure.
Obviously, MF/Star costs much.
What is cost of new Molniya class corvettes?

 

[Carlosa]

It's $1B for first four ships which includes developmental & research cost. If Vietnam orders six ships it cost will be less than $250 million without BrahMos, if BrahMos is added cost will be increased but it will have to remove RBU-6000, so removing RBU-6000 may save some dollar.
Again commodity prices are much low now, not much inflation in India & stronger dollar than Rupee is also decreasing cost of these ships.
That's why GRSE could offer these ships to the Philippines for just $180 million but those ships may be less powerful than Kamorta class also this cost doesn't include some weapons like missiles & may be torpedos too.
You can check specs of PhN requirement.
This ship is called corvette in India because it is may for just one purpose ASW.
OPVs of 3000 tonnes & some 6000 tonnes also called OPV or cutter because they don't have weapons to be called frigate as frigates have more weapons.

Shivaliks are estimated to have cost ₹2,300 crore. The entire project of three frigates could cost more than ₹8,000 crore but all these ships were built before 2011.The Telegraph

None of navies have such ships with such less armaments.

From where you got this figure of $468 million? Wikipedia doesn't have this figure.
Obviously, MF/Star costs much.
What is cost of new Molniya class corvettes?

Sorry, I should not have said that the same price is still there, the price is a little bit less now.
In this wiki page the price now is $416 million: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Kamorta

4 years ago, the price in that same page was $468 million, I had saved the page as a pdf file and I still have it, that's where the price comes from.

Here is that old pdf file, I have problems uploading files to PDF, so I have it here, at this link, can you view it?
http://imgur.com/MCLnNK9

IWhat is cost of new Molniya class corvettes?

The cost of Molniya ships have never been announced, but I used to read in some websites that have many weapon prices that ordering the ship from Russia was around $80 million.

That being said, if I remember correctly, the contract to build 6 of them in VN under license is about $1 billion, but I don't know what is included in the price. I'm not sure also if the 2 ships built in Russia are included in the price either.

@BoQ77 Do you know how much are the Molniya ships costing to VN?

That's why GRSE could offer these ships to the Philippines for just $180 million but those ships may be less powerful than Kamorta class also this cost doesn't include some weapons like missiles & may be torpedos too.

Do you know what weapon package was offered to PH? 180 million is pretty good.

 

[MKC]

Sorry, I should not have said that the same price is still there, the price is a little bit less now.
In this wiki page the price now is $416 million: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Kamorta

4 years ago, the price in that same page was $468 million, I had saved the page as a pdf file and I still have it, that's where the price comes from.

Here is that old pdf file, I have problems uploading files to PDF, so I have it here, at this link, can you view it?
http://imgur.com/MCLnNK9

That was original price of four ships(104 million per ship) as these were planned in advance and took a long time for development which escalated to 1B dollar(250 million per ship).
You know cost of one Shivalik was 340 million dollar. Going that way 104 million for Kamorta was reasonable price.
Kora class(1350 tonnes) costed 36 million in 2004.

Do you know what weapon package was offered to PH? 180 million is pretty good?

Well, I don't know which system will be purchased by GRSE but Here are specification required, released by Departement of National Defence of Philippines.

PHILIPPINE NAVY FRIGATE ACQUISITION PROJECT REVISED TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS – FEBRUARY 2016
WEAPONS
* Space and power allowances for an 8-cellVertical Launch System (VLS), a Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) and a Towed Array Sonar (TAS) for future upgrade.

* Requirement for the main gun to have a minimum rate of fire of 120 rounds per minute. This rules out the older Oto Melara Compact 76 mm gun that PhN ships Del Pilar and Jacinto class are using, and puts the newer Oto Melara Super Rapid (SR) cannon as the ONLY candidate out there are there no other naval gun with a 76 mm caliber that has this rate of fire.

* Requirement for the secondary naval gun to have a caliber of 30-40 mm. One of the more common naval guns within those calibers is the Oerlikon 35 mm Millenium Gun.

* From a 50 km minimum range for the Anti-Ship Missiles (AShMs) to a minimum range of 150 km. This puts the minimum to be in the class of the RGM-84 Harpoon Block II missile.

* From a quadruple launcher for the Surface to Air Missiles (SAMs) to two twin-tube launchers. This puts the minimum to similar to theMistral Simbad or the Dual-Mount Stinger (DMS) systems.

SENSORS
* From a 2D Radar with a minimum range of 148 km to a 3D Radar with a minimum range of 185 km for air targets.

* Additional requirement of Medium Frequency for the Active mode and Low Frequency for the Passive mode for the Sonar System.

This also includes Design Ownership and License Building.


The main and secondary guns will be installed, as well as the launchers for the missiles and torpedoes. Without ammunition, it is likely that only the main gun would be operational when the ship arrives as the Oto Melara SR Gun is compatible with the ammunition used by the older Oto Melara Compact Guns of our other ships. The secondary gun would be doubtful even if a 30 or 40 mm caliber gun is used because the similar caliber ammunition that we have in our inventory might not be compatible with them as there can be several sub-variants of ammunition for the same caliber.

 

[BoQ77]

Interesting, I didn't know that Fincantieri had a shipyard in Vietnam. That makes it easy for Vietnam to order ships from them. The S-1000 is quite an ok sub.

VARD (a Fincantieri ) established in Vung Tau in 2006. Their presence must be over 10 years in Vietnam.

The cost of Molniya ships have never been announced, but I used to read in some websites that have many weapon prices that ordering the ship from Russia was around $80 million.
That being said, if I remember correctly, the contract to build 6 of them in VN under license is about $1 billion, but I don't know what is included in the price. I'm not sure also if the 2 ships built in Russia are included in the price either.
@BoQ77 Do you know how much are the Molniya ships costing to VN?

This is a long story.
at first Vietnam ordered BPS-500 as the design with some clean appearance for a KH-35 Launcher to be built domestically.
The development considered as failed after the progress is slow with first prototype (HQ-381) has some major flaws.
Surely, Vietnam deposited budget to develop that design. Russia showed the risk of newly developing design could be disaster. That changed the mind of Vietnam, now they only order proven platforms even with the older design as KH-35 launchers.
Molniya or Tarantul-V is not the first gen of its kind. And 16x of KH-35 on Molniya is unavailable anywhere but designed as requested by Vietnam for KH-35 launchers.
To think about Molniya as naval Bal-E system, we would guess that actually what Vietnam want is KH-35 and its launchers are needed no matter it's BPS-500 or Molniya. Vietnam never buy a gun without ammo, especially the gun can shoot superfast, use many ammo.
8x Molniya plus 4xGepard require nearly 200x KH-35 per salvo.
So the ToT of KH-35 must be the top in the list. And saw it somewhere in lab, or in the workshop in Vietnam for years, even a little earlier than with the keel laying of first domestic Molniya.

So I'm sure the contract is for both Molniya and KH-35 to be localized.
Rumors said that the first 6 Molniya as we know, but next 4 would be modernized, as we mentioned that the first PBS-500 was fixed the design flaws and just joined the ADMM+ exercise in Brunei. I guess that's the test bed for some changes would be made in next Molniya. Maybe there're some way for its self defense and improvement of the appearance.

Someone told us Vietnam would buy coastal Bal-E, but I know Vietnam Never buy it, once they could make it.
Localized Molniya cost could be around 50 million

 

[Carlosa]

VARD (a Fincantieri ) established in Vung Tau in 2006. Their presence must be over 10 years in Vietnam.


This is a long story.
at first Vietnam ordered BPS-500 as the design with some clean appearance for a KH-35 Launcher to be built domestically.
The development considered as failed after the progress is slow with first prototype (HQ-381) has some major flaws.
Surely, Vietnam deposited budget to develop that design. Russia showed the risk of newly developing design could be disaster. That changed the mind of Vietnam, now they only order proven platforms even with the older design as KH-35 launchers.
Molniya or Tarantul-V is not the first gen of its kind. And 16x of KH-35 on Molniya is unavailable anywhere but designed as requested by Vietnam for KH-35 launchers.
To think about Molniya as naval Bal-E system, we would guess that actually what Vietnam want is KH-35 and its launchers are needed no matter it's BPS-500 or Molniya. Vietnam never buy a gun without ammo, especially the gun can shoot superfast, use many ammo.
8x Molniya plus 4xGepard require nearly 200x KH-35 per salvo.
So the ToT of KH-35 must be the top in the list. And saw it somewhere in lab, or in the workshop in Vietnam for years, even a little earlier than with the keel laying of first domestic Molniya.

So I'm sure the contract is for both Molniya and KH-35 to be localized.
Rumors said that the first 6 Molniya as we know, but next 4 would be modernized, as we mentioned that the first PBS-500 was fixed the design flaws and just joined the ADMM+ exercise in Brunei. I guess that's the test bed for some changes would be made in next Molniya. Maybe there're some way for its self defense and improvement of the appearance.

View attachment 304102

Someone told us Vietnam would buy coastal Bal-E, but I know Vietnam Never buy it, once they could make it.
Localized Molniya cost could be around 50 million

Ah ok, that makes sense.

$50 million per ship including all the sensors is cheap.
As I use to hear, Each KH-35 missile is about $1.7 million each.

 

[BoQ77]

Ah ok, that makes sense.

$50 million per ship including all the sensors is cheap.
As I use to hear, Each KH-35 missile is about $1.7 million each.

2x DN-4000 ordered to build in Song Thu Shipyard.

 

[Carlosa]

2x DN-4000 ordered to build in Song Thu Shipyard.

Have you seen any pic of the DN-4000 other than that famous pic on a board during a meeting? Searching on Damen for a DN-4000 doesn't seem to bring anything.

 

[BoQ77]

Have you seen any pic of the DN-4000 other than that famous pic on a board during a meeting? Searching on Damen for a DN-4000 doesn't seem to bring anything.

they showed it for a reason.
most of them is true

see these images around 2011, they turn to be identical to the final ships

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

Ok, I'll try that, but I was just comparing the pictures of the naval and truck based VLS systems and it seems to me that the truck mounted VLS has more space between canisters, so that would account for the difference that we are seeing.



I finally got the picture, but it really doesn't change anything. We have the 22.5 cm diameter of the missile, that's the part that we know, that's the reference that can be used to measure the length of the VLS and that would be an accurate measurement since the angle of the VLS picture is just right for that. That gives a 2 meter length for the VLS. The horizontal stripe along the length of the missile fits into the empty space in the canister that surrounds the missile. It does not change the measurement of the VLS. That strip seems to be about 1 cm thick max, so if they need to be added to the total dimensions, that's just about 8 cm for the 4 missiles, not much difference.

The diameter & length of missile doesnt matter, all matters is measurements of VLS, lets check some facts.

The above image is of Vishakapatnam Class displaying how much length needed for a BrahMos VLS.

And this image of under construction P28.

The BrahMos VLS also known as Universal Vertical Launcher Module was developed by DRDO, and now produced by L&T.
http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=15

Here the dimension of UVLM

The problem is in P28, this is unknown 9.5 meters below that deck exist that hold the UVLS or not.

Sure, ignore that there are 4 missiles to the width of the of the frame that fits the truck.

In this image, the gun ia a 100mm.

The whole point was - as far as I'm concerned - that it is not a given that Barak-8 and Brahmos will fit as simple drop-in units, as some here seem to assume more or less blindly. If it can be made to fit but only after a rather substantial redesign, then it may not be cost-effective and/or a viable commercial proposition. And such alterations do not necessarily make for a good ship.

The deck footprint of RBU-6000 is 2m x 1.75m, from what I gather (the square).

Personally, I think the Barak-8 launcher has a larger footprint compared to the RBU

In my sense installing Barak-8 VLS on P28 is not that much a problem, the bigger problem (if Barak-8 selected) is installing smaller version of MF-STAR like installed in Sa'ar 5.

 

[Carlosa]

The diameter & length of missile doesnt matter, all matters is measurements of VLS, lets check some facts.

The above image is of Vishakapatnam Class displaying how much length needed for a BrahMos VLS.

And this image of under construction P28.

The BrahMos VLS also known as Universal Vertical Launcher Module was developed by DRDO, and now produced by L&T.
http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=15

Here the dimension of UVLM

The problem is in P28, this is unknown 9.5 meters below that deck exist that hold the UVLS or not.



In my sense installing Barak-8 VLS on P28 is not that much a problem, the bigger problem (if Barak-8 selected) is installing smaller version of MF-STAR like installed in Sa'ar 5.

Good input, thank you. Your pictures show a 6 cell VLS for Brahmos, is that what Indian navy ships use? I thought it was 8 cells.

Yes, I don't know if the P28 has 9.5 m clearance below deck, but there are smaller Russian ships that are able to hold the UKSK VLS in that area, so I think is possible.

I think the installation of MF / STAR is ok because the Israelis have it in much smaller ships like the Saar 5 corvettes.

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

Good input, thank you. Your pictures show a 6 cell VLS for Brahmos, is that what Indian navy ships use? I thought it was 8 cells.

Yes, I don't know if the P28 has 9.5 m clearance below deck, but there are smaller Russian ships that are able to hold the UKSK VLS in that area, so I think is possible.

I think the installation of MF / STAR is ok because the Israelis have it in much smaller ships like the Saar 5 corvettes.

I am assuming the height of VLS of 8 cells and 6 cells would be same.

Clearly on Kolkata class 8 cells VLS is installed.

I think the installation of MF / STAR is ok because the Israelis have it in much smaller ships like the Saar 5 corvettes.

Indeed, if Israel provide solution as add on mast with MF-STAR that equipped on Sa'ar 5, that not going to be a problem.

 

[Penguin]

Not quite as good as Brahmos, but it will have to do for now.

How would you know? It doesn't exist as yet.

A model of the Brahmos-M / Brahmos-NG was showcased on 20 February 2013, at the 15th anniversary celebrations of BrahMos Corporations.

A decision was taken only in 2014 to build the mini-BrahMos.
https://in.rbth.com/blogs/2015/07/03/the_brahmos_is_just_beginning_44045
http://carnegieendowment.org/2015/07/03/brahmos-is-just-beginning/id0b

In 2015, Sputnik news states that "after Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) handed over the first BrahMos-A missile integrated Su-30MKI aircraft to the Indian Air Force, Indian and Russian designers concentrated on creating the supersonic mini-BrahMos (BrahMos-M) missiles" The article still speaks in future tense of the Brahmos-M, suggesting there is not an operational missile yet, let alone a functional prototype
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150227/1018859989.html#ixzz488vhzXXX

The need for Brahmos-M has arisen because not even the big-*** Su-30 can carry more than 1 Brahmos-A, and Brahmos-A cannot be fired from 553mm torpedo tubes (i.e. requires installation of a VLS for adoption in submarines)
http://www.therussophile.org/brahmos-first-made-in-india-project-continues-successfully.html/

First test flight is expected to take place in 2017–18.
https://www.ibcworldnews.com/2015/03/13/brahmos-mini-is-now-officially-brahmos-ng-next-generation/

So it will easily be 2020 before there is an operational Indian missile of this type.....

By contrast, kh-31 has been operational since 1982 and in service since 1988. In antiship and anti-radiation versions. Hundreds have been produced.

Known Operators

• Russia
• Algeria
• Syria
• India
• China
• Indonesia
• Peru
• Venezuela
• Vietnam
• Malaysia

Possible/Potential operators

• North Korea
• Iran

The US Navy has bought Kh-31 derived MA-31 target drones

The P28 in that configuration is also much better than the Gepards. In my opinion Vietnam have been going in the wrong direction when it comes to surface ships, buying ships like the Gepard or the intended Sigma, which are really not designed to survive a war with China. I think they are a waste of money. Better to spend the money for the coast guard or for aircraft.

The P28 in that configuration would be the first ship that can really fight in a conflict with China and have a decent chance.

The Molniya ships being designed for hit and run strikes are ok, but they are a 40 year old design (The ships themselves, not the weapon systems), so its a bit disappointing that when everybody is getting stealth ships, Vietnam gets a 40 year old design. Not happy about that. The Kilos are the only good purchase so far by the navy.

How is a Sigma 9814 not intented to survive a war with China?

Vietship 2014 the new SIGMA 9814 class was to be fitted with:
8x MBDA Exocet MM40 Block 3
12x MBDA MICA VL surface-to-air missiles (in VLS)
1x Oto Melara 76mm main gun
2x Oto Melara MARLIN-WS 30mm gun mounts

These armaments and various sensors are just there for show? The ship is not survivable, has no damage control?

Good input, thank you. Your pictures show a 6 cell VLS for Brahmos, is that what Indian navy ships use? I thought it was 8 cells.

Agree, 8-round launcher is standard.

Yes, I don't know if the P28 has 9.5 m clearance below deck, but there are smaller Russian ships that are able to hold the UKSK VLS in that area, so I think is possible.

Which ships, specifically, and what are their relevant dimensions? I.e. smaller in what way?

I think the installation of MF / STAR is ok because the Israelis have it in much smaller ships like the Saar 5 corvettes.

The MF-Star on the Saar 5 INS Lahav does not appear to have the same size and shape antennas as the Indian Kolkata ships. Plus, the four antennas are split over 2 masts.

Compara antenna's to RBU and 76mm main gun and then project to Kamorta P28. Where Saar 5 has a Phalanx, it can also mount a 76mm instead

Weighing about seven tons, the radar uses four flat lightweight antennae operating in the S-band that can be tailored to fit even relatively small ships, from corvettes and above.

http://defense-update.com/20070727_mf_star.html