Vietnam fooling no one in maritime dispute

[seven7seven]

All current disputes China has with Japan, Vietnam and Philippines, were instigated by the latter 3 countries. It's not a coincidence either. These countries know that if they don't try to make their claim now, then in probably a decades time, China will have become far too powerful to even contemplate challenging. They all know China has time on their side so are pressing their claims now. They believe that by using a declining USA, that wants to prove it's not declining, as a shield/club, they can convince China to acquiesce to their demands. All I can say is that it's very desperate moves from unrealistic and over-nationalistic countries, not comprehending/remembering the historical landscape of East and South-East Asia and China's traditional role as the centre of orbit to which the rest of Asia revolves around. I can see at least one or two of these countries being taught a lesson, at some point in the future.

 

[Jlaw]

I met an American Doctor with PHD degree in Beijing. Who asked some weird questions:" Where I can buy the Red Books?". "Why there are no the Red Guards on street?" I can see he is totally brain washed by US propaganda. He knows nothing about the current China. Believe me, Chinese know much more than you expected. And Americans know much less than you expected.

Did he asked you where he can get a Mao shirt? Isn't the blue shirt worn by all in China?

All current disputes China has with Japan, Vietnam and Philippines, were instigated by the latter 3 countries. It's not a coincidence either. These countries know that if they don't try to make their claim now, then in probably a decades time, China will have become far too powerful to even contemplate challenging. They all know China has time on their side so are pressing their claims now. They believe that by using a declining USA, that wants to prove it's not declining, as a shield/club, they can convince China to acquiesce to their demands. All I can say is that it's very desperate moves from unrealistic and over-nationalistic countries, not comprehending/remembering the historical landscape of East and South-East Asia and China's traditional role as the centre of orbit to which the rest of Asia revolves around. I can see at least one or two of these countries being taught a lesson, at some point in the future.

I think China partially let this thing drag on for too long. If China was serious about the islands belonging to them, they should have used ammunition and sink the Vietnamese vessels. If armed Vietnamese vessels entered mainland China's coast without authorization, China would strike with force as they will treat it as an invasion.
By not doing so in the Chinese administered Xisha islands, it creates doubts in some people's minds that the Xisha islands do not belong to China.

 

[OCguy]

You mean you by avoiding my question of why US falsely accuse and hide behind the mask?

I think we know the answer to my question anyway.

 

[seven7seven]

Did he asked you where he can get a Mao shirt? Isn't the blue shirt worn by all in China?


I think China partially let this thing drag on for too long. If China was serious about the islands belonging to them, they should have used ammunition and sink the Vietnamese vessels. If armed Vietnamese vessels entered mainland China's coast without authorization, China would strike with force as they will treat it as an invasion.
By not doing so in the Chinese administered Xisha islands, it creates doubts in some people's minds that the Xisha islands do not belong to China.

I know what you're trying to say but China is doing the wise thing and treading carefully with these disputes. China has to show itself to the rest of Asia and even the World, that they are not a hot-head and bully, that gets easily into shooting wars with its neighbours. By sending out regular patrols in contested areas, declaring ADIZ and constructing buildings and oil rigs are putting pressure on countries they are in dispute with. Let these countries make the first mistake and do something stupid like sink a Chinese ship, and give China every justification to launch an attack. In these circumstances, China cannot be seen as the aggressor as their reaction wil be to a hostile act committed by a neighbouring rival.

Of course China can flatten weak navies, like that of Philippines and Vietnam. However, the political cost of a pre-emptive first attack by China is far too great. As for Japan, China should just play the long-game and steadily gain more economic and military strength, to make the gap between them and Japan be so great, that Japan dare not make any claims to territory claimed by China. Like I said, China has time on its side and must not be drawn into hasty and reckless moves. Just keep concerted pressure on your rivals and make them crack under this pressure.

 

[Rechoice]

Were those french or westerners God? Before they left Europe and came to Asia, Chinese had found the islands for thousands years. Chinese fishermen were finishing there for thousands years. Why would we care when those Europeans found the islands. It means nothing.

The westerners were the thirst parties, they known that Vietnamese found and controlled Islands from ancient time. They are impartial in this dispute.

From time of Nguyen warlord to Nguyen Dynasty, Vietnam has been controlled official by Dynasty. Hoang Sa sea fleet has been established to control Hoang Sa and Truong Sa of Vietnam.

When chinese didn't do that. In map of Man Qing atlas 1904, it stated that last point of China is Hainan Islands,

This map made by Vietnamese.

 

[TaiShang]

Getting to hear from many viewpoints, and making up your own mind, is a great freedom. Seeing and hearing only what your government wants you to is not a system that belongs in the 21st Century.

Not having access to facebook and twitter is great. It adds extra juice when trashes like NYT and WP (both are state-friendly corporate media) are banned -- but sadly they are not.

Other than that, so long as the university pays the subscription, we have access to almost all academic databeses such EBSCO, Jstor (for my own field) as well as our own, which makes up the great loss we incur from not having access to Twitter and FB and other Western media -- I do not know which ones are not accessible since I have not even had an urge to view them. And I am able to write journals SSCI-indexed!!! So much for not having access to real information.

If the US president says something that isn't true, there will be 10,000 articles and blog posts calling him out on it in the US alone. Propaganda isn't the problem, since you are correct, it exists in every country. The problem is not having the access to the outside information that lets the population know what is propaganda and what isn't.

We have access to everything except missionary Western press and CIA-payrolled social media. If, after Snowden, we still allowed trojan horses like Google Search to pollute our environment, we should be damned. We have access to RT and Press TV. All media from Latin America and Africa. From rest of Asia.

On daily bases, a great constructive public debate is going on in China and there is no limitation on that. Public policy is being held accountable. People are travelling (overland and overseas) in greatest number in the world, seeing the world as it is, and we receive the greatest number of tourists. Our progress so far could not have been done if there was limitation on free thinking. Our governance model is practically the best. And our academic might (citation, CCSI publication etc -- although I do not like them as indicators but academic tradition is like that) is growing every passing day.

You see, Chinese approach is strategic. US people have complete freedom to be subject to a ton of trash from an almost monopolized media; that's their freedom. Our freedom is to have 80% home ownership in urban, whereas it is around 20% in the US. I do not say one is good, one is not so. But we are pretty happy to have freedom from being forced into homelessness and may you be happy forever to have multiple viewpoints -- as if 50 million on welfare give a jack about multiple viewpoints.

At the same time, we enjoy seeing Chinese social media and others dominate our home turf.

 

[Jlaw]

Not having access to facebook and twitter is great. It adds extra juice when trashes like NYT and WP (both are state-friendly corporate media) are banned -- but sadly they are not.

Other than that, so long as the university pays the subscription price, we have access to almost all academic databeses such EBSCO, Jstor (for my own field), which makes up the great loss we incur from not having access to Twitter and FB.



We have access except missionary Western press and CIA-payrolled social media. If, after Snowden, we still allow trojan horses like Google Search to pollute our environment, we should damned. We have access to RT and Press TV. All media from Latin America and Africa. From rest of Asia.

You see, Chinese approach is strategic. US people have complete freedom to be subject to a ton of trash from almost monopolized media; that's their freedom. Our freedom is to have 80% home ownership in urban, whereas it is around 20% in the US. I do not say one is good, one is not so. But we are pretty happy to have freedom from being forced into homelessness.

At the same time, we enjoy seeing Chinese social media dominate our home turf.

I missed those Ebsco and Jstor dbase from my school days. Do you have a good academic database for Chinese history?

 

[TaiShang]

I missed those Ebsco and Jstor dbase from my school days. Do you have a good academic database for Chinese history?

I still have a full access to these databases since I myself am still a student. Recently I am reading a lot on the theories of the state as I want to see how it is problematized in a certain Marxist school.

But you are right, once you are out, these databases are completely unaccessible. I hate to see knowledge is so commercialized. There is a certain journal in which I have a ton of articles I want to read but the two institutions I am in does not have subscription to the journal. It almost kills me when I know there is great scholarship there related to my research but I cannot have access. In the end, I get criticized during blind review process. (The journal is an old one from Britain -- deals with Marxist IR Theories.) Even articles as old as 40 years not accessible.

 

[Genesis]

Original link doesn't seem to work for me.

But the Chinese PR machine is running overtime these days. I wish the Chinese people had full access to non-government propaganda information from around the world.

you have a very stupid idea. Why would Chinese people be against China? All the western propaganda is available in China. A lot of Western news is available, only a few are banned. But nobody ever goes to those sites, cause guess what they don't want to nor do they believe it.

As if an anti American site can ever be popular in US. Why do you think Fox news is so popular?

Also most young people don't get news from government sources no more.

Your lack of information is troubling, I wish all you western people have full access to non retarded source, but then again.....

 

[TaiShang]

Your lack of information is troubling, I wish all you western people have full access to non retarded source, but then again.....

He sounds like a faithful; a believer, which is a very troubling thing. This shows the power of US propaganda machine that fixes public opinion toward certain direction as the power interests dictate.

How was the US public made warm to the idea of a war?

Did not they have access to the alternatives that said the opposite. But in the end, they believed in NYT, not RT.

If the mind is so fixed already, no amount of information available will be meaningful. At best, they will create an illusion of freedom and alternatives while, in fact, it is very well controlled and public sentiment and consciousness are manipulated.

Is not US elections solely based on image making and manipulation?

Again, I am glad that we screen out US information terrorists. I am just unhappy that we do not screen enough.

 

[OCguy]

So justifying State-run information sources, along with censorship, is the consensus approach I see.

What a wild world we live in where the info-restricted who have been spoon-fed party dogma exclusively since birth, can whole heartedly shame others as brainwashed.

China can't stop progress forever. Slowly but surely, the middle class is gaining access to instant information. What is put out in State newspapers can be verified or countered.

The big change will come when the hundreds of millions of poor/rural Chinese attain the same access.

Simple research would reveal why using welfare as a negative is puzzling. Almost a billion Chinese live on less than $5/day. Western "poor" make more than that per hour.

Resorting to ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the topic at hand is a sign of a weak argument. If calling fellow PDF members "retarded" or "dumb" is an attempt to bait for retaliation or silence them, I think you will end up disappointed.

 

[TaiShang]

The big change will come when the hundreds of millions of poor/rural Chinese attain the same access.

That you have been hoping for how long? While you are hoping, we are creating an international web of business transactions. Please tell your President to start to actually deliver to his own people rather than engaging in girly talks in international realm.

And the middle class tend often to be more conservative than hungry, desperate people -- of course, if they are not fed by the US media-machine that their misery is of their own failure.

The more prosperous we get, the stronger and more unified we become.

Now keep your own perceptions for yourself, mind your own business and worry about your own state-friendly corporate media that fools people just the way their private interests dictate.

 

[Genesis]

So justifying State-run information sources, along with censorship, is the consensus approach I see.

What a wild world we live in where the info-restricted who have been spoon-fed party dogma exclusively since birth, can whole heartedly shame others as brainwashed.

China can't stop progress forever. Slowly but surely, the middle class is gaining access to instant information. What is put out in State newspapers can be verified or countered.

The big change will come when the hundreds of millions of poor/rural Chinese attain the same access.

Simple research would reveal why using welfare as a negative is puzzling. Almost a billion Chinese live on less than $5/day. Western "poor" make more than that per hour.

Resorting to ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the topic at hand is a sign of a weak argument. If calling fellow PDF members "retarded" or "dumb" is an attempt to bait for retaliation or silence them, I think you will end up disappointed.

5 dollars in China is 30+ RMB. that's a beer, a lunch with rice and a meat dish to go with soup, a breakfast that include a pretty soy milk and a Chinese bread, and a dinner that's also up to standard, and you can have a few dollars for snack.

This is second tier cities, with third tiers even cheaper, and btw, most Chinese don't pay rent, especially the poorer ones. They have their own homes, hence no slums, a relic of our communist era.

First tiers are more expensive but not by much. but even the lowest income in those cities and some second tier cities make way more than that.

I lived in Canada and US and I know what minimum wage is like, never experienced it, but I have co-workers who didn't have my parents.


Also I never justified state run information, I just said Chinese have access to other information if they wish for it and most young people choose to.

As it turns out Chinese people know what's propaganda and what's not being spoon fed propaganda since birth, but Western people IE you have no idea when something is propaganda. Just like Chinese street food would make you get food poisoning but would make me glow.

Also to disappoint you, Chinese rural poor, I mean these two words together, cause there are more poor, and more rural, but together they number just over 100 million, which is a lot, but well shot of the hundreds of millions you were hoping for.

All have access to at least a TV, and a lot more to internet.


I never said you were retarded, but if a supreme justice calling the devil real, senators calling the end of the world is next year, and more crazy evolution/creationist crap isn't retarded, we need a new word for it.

Are you telling me these are not propaganda? American news calling China causing trouble that's not propaganda? Whatever you think are facts are irrelevant, a news agency must just report on the events in full. Not use words like bogus, fake, aggressive, and such that would otherwise influence the viewer.

 

[Okemos]

Vietnam is the most despicable country in Asia, bar none. They have been drilling in South China See forever and their oil production accounts for 20% of the national GDP. But when China put one single oil rig there, they are crying like little baby and playing victim card everywhere.

China has been way too peaceful in the past. China should have rammed those Vietnamese oil rigs when they first installed them.

 

[Soryu]

Vietnam is the most despicable country in Asia, bar none. They have been drilling in South China See forever and their oil production accounts for 20% of the national GDP. But when China put one single oil rig there, they are crying like little baby and playing victim card everywhere.

China has been way too peaceful in the past. China should have rammed those Vietnamese oil rigs when they first installed them.

disputed and non-disputed areas, buddy ...