Vietnam Defence Forum

[Echo_419]

Wow, Barak 8 to be license produced in VN!!!
Do you know if it will be the naval or land version?

I also see that the Spyder SAM will be license produced in VN.

Quite a bit of missile production in VN coming up. Yakhon will also start production in VN in 2017 for what I hear.

Do you have any news of when fighter jets will be ordered? I've been hearing that VN wants the SU-34 and some better version of SU-30 or SU-35.

Barak 8 is truly a world class SAM Vietnam has made the right choice

 

[Carlosa]

Barak 8 is truly a world class SAM Vietnam has made the right choice

Definitely, I consider it as the very best SAM right now. And the Spyder SR/MR for the shorter range. The Israelis are really on top and they are cost effective.

I@Carlosa Maybe You interested in this news

India's Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) Plans



The Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) joint venture [JV] involved Israel Aerospace Industries and Rafael teaming up with India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and the Indian Air Force to build medium range surface-to-air missiles (MRSAMs). The deal, worth Rs10,400 crore, would be India's biggest defence JV with a foreign country. The DRDO is a partner in the project, but will get only a third (Rs 3,000 crore) of the Rs 10,000 crore. IAI gets the bulk of it, over Rs 7,000 crore.

DRDO had already developed indigenous air defence systems, such as the Trishul and the Akash. The latter did not fit the bill for the MR-SAM project as its range was only 30 km, while the services had posited the requirement for a missile system with a range of 70 km. MR-SAM systems would be deployed for the security of the National Capital Region as well as for securing nuclear installations across the country.

The Israeli firm IAI was already blacklisted by Government of India, after finding it indulged in commission pay off in Barak Missile Deal in 2000. CBI had lodged FIR against then Indian defence minister, George Fernandes, Former Chief of the Indian Navy, Admiral Sushil Kumar, Suresh Nanda along with his son, Sanjeev Nanda and others regarding defence deal to procure seven Barak systems at a total cost $199.50 million and 200 missiles at a cost of $69.13 million On October 23, 2000. It is alleged that 3.5 percent commission was given to those accused in that earlier deal.

In July 2007 the Cabinet Committee on Security gave the formal clearance for the largest-ever joint venture India has undertaken in the defence sector with any foreign partner. The proposed missile, a new generation Barak missile, was to have around 70-km range. In May 2008 the government formally put on hold India's largest-ever military joint venture with a foreign country - the Rs 10,000 crore effort with Israel to build a medium-range surface-to-air missile (MRSAM) for the Air Force.

India and Israel agreed to expand their already considerable missile development cooperation with an even longer-range version of their extended-range Barak ship defense system, this time for the Indian Air Force. The countries were expected to sign an add-on development contract by 2008, following the conclusion of the memorandum of agreement between Indian defense research authorities and prime contractor Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). By one account the new land-based air defense system would feature a range of 150 kilometers [other reports state half this, which is more than double that of the supersonic, vertically launched Barak-8, or Barak NG (New Generation) being developed for the Indian Navy].

Israel and India agreed to a cooperative program to extend the range of the Barak-8/Barak-NG (Barak-8 is the Israeli Naval Terminology, Barak-NG is the Indian Naval name) naval missile. This new system is to be a land-based variant with a range at least twice that of the Barak-8/Barak-NG's 70 to 80 km, therefore the new missile is expected to fly at least 150 km. Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) representing Israel and the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) representing India were expected to sign a memorandum of agreement early in 2008 as the two primary contractors.

In an unusual development, in August 2008 the Central Vigilance Commission gave the go-ahead for a massive joint venture with two Israeli defence firms that were under investigation for kickbacks in the Barak missile scandal. The CVC clearance for the project - it had been on hold since June 2007 despite approval from the cabinet committee on security - caused some surprise in official circles.

But the Indian Government signed an agreement with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) on 27 February 2009 to jointly develop a Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) with DRDO. The UPA government signed Rs10,000 crore defence deal with Israel to purchase medium-range surface-to-air missiles, ignoring the 'Akash' developed by the Defence Research and Development Organization and Bharat Electronics Ltd Akash has a range of 27km, while MRSAM has a range of about 70km.

On 31 March 2009 IAI released an official press statement rejecting the claims that it purposely withheld notification of the deal to the Israel Securities Authority. "Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) does not release general information regarding transactions with its customers, except for such information as is required to be reported by law. Lately, various articles have appeared in the media regarding a large transaction for the sale of weapon systems to the country of a foreign customer, which have included information that is incorrect and biased, and which have originated, apparently, from entities that are trying to harm IAI's business ties with this customer.

"It was published, among other things, that notification regarding a large transaction for the sale of weapon systems to a foreign customer was delayed until receipt of the advance payment for such transaction, and this on the claim that representatives of that country's government requested that the notification be delayed. IAI's management wishes to make it clear that these claims and articles have no basis in reality and, in any event, have not emanated from IAI."

Nova Integrated Systems, a Tata-IAI joint venture, is integrating the MRSAM. Several officials in the defence ministry were said to be "baffled" as to how a private-sector firm had been nominated as the integrator for the missile system. In India, all missile systems are integrated in public-sector units, usually Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL). DRDO had suggested BDL as the integrator for the MRSAM, with the Israelis supplying the seeker and some radar components, and DRDO making the airframe, servos, and propulsion.

The MRSAM JV would initially build two regiments of 36 launchers for the IAF. The missile launcher and the command post would be made in India, with the rest of the complex system - including the missile itself - to be made in Israel. IAI will reportedly supply India with 2,000 missiles capable of intercepting enemy aircraft and missiles within a 70-kilometer range. The proposed MRSAM, to replace the old Pechora missiles of the IAF. DRDO would station at least 25 of its scientists in Israel for the project. The first prototype was planned in about two and a half years [around 2011] and the development would be completed in five years from its start.

The IAF funded 90 percent of the project, while 10 per cent is funded by the DRDO for the development phase of the MR-SAM. Signed in March 2009, the contract is for 18 fire units (each equipped with 24 missiles) that must be delivered by October 2016. Each fire unit comes with a radar, three missile launchers, and a sophisticated Combat Management System. Since a missile has a limited shelf life, additional orders for missiles will continue to be placed as they are consumed. The MR-SAM uses the same missile as the LR-SAM to protect its air bases. The ground infrastructure, however, is far more complex.

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) said the 10 November 2014 full system intercept test validated all elements of the locally developed air and missile defense system and transitions the program into operational testing as it ramps up to serial production. “The system is now operational,” said Boaz Levy, executive vice president and general manager of IAI’s Systems, Missiles and Space Group.

“All components of sea- and land-based systems were validated under realistic threat conditions,” Levy said of the vertically launched intercepting system designed for persistent defense against saturation attacks by long-range missiles and a spectrum of air-breathing threats. Briefing reporters, Levy said he expected Barak-8 partners in Israel and India to declare initial operational capability (IOC) in “a number of months.”

Yes, a nice development, I've been following that one too, I follow every Israeli SAM system, they are the best man. India and Vietnam are doing the right choices, its very good that India develops with Israel, that's the best partner for India in terms of tech coop without hustles and delays.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

The order of T-72B3 is in addition to the 480 already in stock, so the number of T-72 is building up nicely.

May be something wrong, the plan is purchase 480 T72 and upgrade, currently we don't have any source state that we've already possed 480 T72,

 

[Viet]

I dont think there is anything going on behind the scene, there are several reasons for that. One, T-72 going to be upgraded on Tank EX standard, which ultimately include induction of CLGM, so the Indian T-72 is not same as Russian.

Other thing is that, T-90 Bhisma manufactured by Avadhi is not fulfilling the requirement of IA. And after order of 500 Arjun Mk.2, and Arjun Chassis based arty gun, the production line going to stretch further.

So, I think these tanks will be imported directly from Russia, with Russian electronics, fire control system and Russian armor, I dont think there is going to an Indian involvement in it, even in electronics and armor.

@Carlosa Maybe You interested in this news

India's Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) Plans



The Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) joint venture [JV] involved Israel Aerospace Industries and Rafael teaming up with India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and the Indian Air Force to build medium range surface-to-air missiles (MRSAMs). The deal, worth Rs10,400 crore, would be India's biggest defence JV with a foreign country. The DRDO is a partner in the project, but will get only a third (Rs 3,000 crore) of the Rs 10,000 crore. IAI gets the bulk of it, over Rs 7,000 crore.

DRDO had already developed indigenous air defence systems, such as the Trishul and the Akash. The latter did not fit the bill for the MR-SAM project as its range was only 30 km, while the services had posited the requirement for a missile system with a range of 70 km. MR-SAM systems would be deployed for the security of the National Capital Region as well as for securing nuclear installations across the country.

The Israeli firm IAI was already blacklisted by Government of India, after finding it indulged in commission pay off in Barak Missile Deal in 2000. CBI had lodged FIR against then Indian defence minister, George Fernandes, Former Chief of the Indian Navy, Admiral Sushil Kumar, Suresh Nanda along with his son, Sanjeev Nanda and others regarding defence deal to procure seven Barak systems at a total cost $199.50 million and 200 missiles at a cost of $69.13 million On October 23, 2000. It is alleged that 3.5 percent commission was given to those accused in that earlier deal.

In July 2007 the Cabinet Committee on Security gave the formal clearance for the largest-ever joint venture India has undertaken in the defence sector with any foreign partner. The proposed missile, a new generation Barak missile, was to have around 70-km range. In May 2008 the government formally put on hold India's largest-ever military joint venture with a foreign country - the Rs 10,000 crore effort with Israel to build a medium-range surface-to-air missile (MRSAM) for the Air Force.

India and Israel agreed to expand their already considerable missile development cooperation with an even longer-range version of their extended-range Barak ship defense system, this time for the Indian Air Force. The countries were expected to sign an add-on development contract by 2008, following the conclusion of the memorandum of agreement between Indian defense research authorities and prime contractor Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). By one account the new land-based air defense system would feature a range of 150 kilometers [other reports state half this, which is more than double that of the supersonic, vertically launched Barak-8, or Barak NG (New Generation) being developed for the Indian Navy].

Israel and India agreed to a cooperative program to extend the range of the Barak-8/Barak-NG (Barak-8 is the Israeli Naval Terminology, Barak-NG is the Indian Naval name) naval missile. This new system is to be a land-based variant with a range at least twice that of the Barak-8/Barak-NG's 70 to 80 km, therefore the new missile is expected to fly at least 150 km. Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) representing Israel and the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) representing India were expected to sign a memorandum of agreement early in 2008 as the two primary contractors.

In an unusual development, in August 2008 the Central Vigilance Commission gave the go-ahead for a massive joint venture with two Israeli defence firms that were under investigation for kickbacks in the Barak missile scandal. The CVC clearance for the project - it had been on hold since June 2007 despite approval from the cabinet committee on security - caused some surprise in official circles.

But the Indian Government signed an agreement with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) on 27 February 2009 to jointly develop a Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) with DRDO. The UPA government signed Rs10,000 crore defence deal with Israel to purchase medium-range surface-to-air missiles, ignoring the 'Akash' developed by the Defence Research and Development Organization and Bharat Electronics Ltd Akash has a range of 27km, while MRSAM has a range of about 70km.

On 31 March 2009 IAI released an official press statement rejecting the claims that it purposely withheld notification of the deal to the Israel Securities Authority. "Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) does not release general information regarding transactions with its customers, except for such information as is required to be reported by law. Lately, various articles have appeared in the media regarding a large transaction for the sale of weapon systems to the country of a foreign customer, which have included information that is incorrect and biased, and which have originated, apparently, from entities that are trying to harm IAI's business ties with this customer.

"It was published, among other things, that notification regarding a large transaction for the sale of weapon systems to a foreign customer was delayed until receipt of the advance payment for such transaction, and this on the claim that representatives of that country's government requested that the notification be delayed. IAI's management wishes to make it clear that these claims and articles have no basis in reality and, in any event, have not emanated from IAI."

Nova Integrated Systems, a Tata-IAI joint venture, is integrating the MRSAM. Several officials in the defence ministry were said to be "baffled" as to how a private-sector firm had been nominated as the integrator for the missile system. In India, all missile systems are integrated in public-sector units, usually Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL). DRDO had suggested BDL as the integrator for the MRSAM, with the Israelis supplying the seeker and some radar components, and DRDO making the airframe, servos, and propulsion.

The MRSAM JV would initially build two regiments of 36 launchers for the IAF. The missile launcher and the command post would be made in India, with the rest of the complex system - including the missile itself - to be made in Israel. IAI will reportedly supply India with 2,000 missiles capable of intercepting enemy aircraft and missiles within a 70-kilometer range. The proposed MRSAM, to replace the old Pechora missiles of the IAF. DRDO would station at least 25 of its scientists in Israel for the project. The first prototype was planned in about two and a half years [around 2011] and the development would be completed in five years from its start.

The IAF funded 90 percent of the project, while 10 per cent is funded by the DRDO for the development phase of the MR-SAM. Signed in March 2009, the contract is for 18 fire units (each equipped with 24 missiles) that must be delivered by October 2016. Each fire unit comes with a radar, three missile launchers, and a sophisticated Combat Management System. Since a missile has a limited shelf life, additional orders for missiles will continue to be placed as they are consumed. The MR-SAM uses the same missile as the LR-SAM to protect its air bases. The ground infrastructure, however, is far more complex.

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) said the 10 November 2014 full system intercept test validated all elements of the locally developed air and missile defense system and transitions the program into operational testing as it ramps up to serial production. “The system is now operational,” said Boaz Levy, executive vice president and general manager of IAI’s Systems, Missiles and Space Group.

“All components of sea- and land-based systems were validated under realistic threat conditions,” Levy said of the vertically launched intercepting system designed for persistent defense against saturation attacks by long-range missiles and a spectrum of air-breathing threats. Briefing reporters, Levy said he expected Barak-8 partners in Israel and India to declare initial operational capability (IOC) in “a number of months.”

Irrespective India provides tanks to Vietnam army or not, but I think one thing we can take as granted is we will turn on India for training for the new T72/T90 tanks. It makes very much sense we already send staffs to India for trainings on SU-30 and Kilo.

Should VN navy decide for Scorpène, what is very likely, we will cooperatate with you as well.

there are many rumor about Long Binh, mostly about nuke bombs (may be 3) (name " broken arrow- mũi tên gãy"), but nobody know they are exist, mostly news is we open all of them and get a lot of normal weapon
I don't think it exist

well, I don´t think we have a nuclear weapon program yet, either. we may have some secret basic researches, but for building nuclear warheads, we still lack of nuclear fuel, technology and experience. besides, we are not allowed to acquire nuclear weapons as the treaties we signed.

The 1 billion deal for the tanks also include the 6 BM-30 Smerch MLRS systems. Actually, I wonder if it is the Smerch which is the old version and not very accurate, I think it might be the Tornado, that's the replacement for it.
The order of T-72B3 is in addition to the 480 already in stock, so the number of T-72 is building up nicely.

I also like the Holland OPV, very nice.

This is the Tornado:
View attachment 183326

This is the Smerch:
View attachment 183327

nice. where do you get the source?

 

[Carlosa]

May be something wrong, the plan is purchase 480 T72 and upgrade, currently we don't have any source state that we've already possed 480 T72,

No official sources for that, but plenty of indirect sources including Russian statements that VN needed to upgrade its stock of 480 T-72 tanks. VN already has 480 and the latest order is for another 186.

Irrespective India provides tanks to Vietnam army or not, but I think one thing we can take as granted is we will turn on India for training for the new T72/T90 tanks. It makes very much sense we already send staffs to India for trainings on SU-30 and Kilo.

Should VN navy decide for Scorpène, what is very likely, we will cooperatate with you as well.


well, I don´t think we have a nuclear weapon program yet, either. we may have some secret basic researches, but for building nuclear warheads, we still lack of nuclear fuel, technology and experience. besides, we are not allowed to acquire nuclear weapons as the treaties we signed.


nice. where do you get the source?

All the info is in the info posted by Triumfvn, look at when it says "part of 1 billion deal" there are 3 items that says that, those are the items of that deal.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

well, I don´t think we have a nuclear weapon program yet, either. we may have some secret basic researches, but for building nuclear warheads, we still lack of nuclear fuel, technology and experience. besides, we are not allowed to acquire nuclear weapons as the treaties we signed.


nice. where do you get the source?

No, I mean Nuclear weapon which American left in Vietnam when they retreat, not develop by Vietnamese
Source : ttvnol

No official sources for that, but plenty of indirect sources including Russian statements that VN needed to upgrade its stock of 480 T-72 tanks. VN already has 480 and the latest order is for another 186.

yes, i heard from triumph

 

[Viet]

No, I mean Nuclear weapon which American left in Vietnam when they retreat, not develop by Vietnamese
Source : ttvnol

nukes left over after the VN war? are you serious?
I don´t think the US armed forces deployed nuclear weapons to South Vietnam. that is very unlikely. North Vietnam did not possess nuclear weapons.

 

[Carlosa]

No, I mean Nuclear weapon which American left in Vietnam when they retreat, not develop by Vietnamese
Source : ttvnol

Can you elaborate some more on that? We don't know anything about that.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

nukes left over after the VN war? are you serious?
I don´t think the US armed forces deployed nuclear weapons to South Vietnam. that is very unlikely. North Vietnam did not possess nuclear weapons.

That is the rumor i heard, but i did not believe, these nukes named " broken arrow" (may be 2) left in Long Binh stock ,
Also a rumor that Vietnamese can not open all the chamber in Long Binh, so they can not find the nuke yet, US have already make 1 secret operation in 2001 to retrive the "broken arrow", but they did not success, now Long Binh and Kim Boi are 2 areas which is highly protect by VPA.
It's not used against North Vietnam,but against USSR in the cold war ,but you know, It's hard to believe, so i did not believe to, but still alot of people believe about it
I just thinks about it because some one talk about Long Binh as a hint, and remind about some very special weapon,

i did a brief search and it seems my database has access to those infiniti research reports. but you have to give me a specific title you want to look for as its a very broad database. i will look into the tanks and ships when i have some free time.


it is not. this thing has been rumoured for a very long time to be in vietnam's possession, probably started in the early 90s. i give you a hint: Long Binh

he mean that in early 90s, Vietnamese can open the secret chamber in Long Binh Stock and found the nuke

I don't have enough permission to post any links here yet, but if you can use Vietnamese, you can search about Long Bình stock and the " broken arrow"- mũi tên gãy

 

[Viet]

That is the rumor i heard, but i did not believe, these nukes named " broken arrow" (may be 2) left in Long Binh stock ,
Also a rumor that Vietnamese can not open all the chamber in Long Binh, so they can not find the nuke yet, US have already make 1 secret operation in 2001 to retrive the "broken arrow", but they did not success, now Long Binh and Kim Boi are 2 areas which is highly protect by VPA.
It's not used against North Vietnam,but against USSR in the cold war ,but you know, It's hard to believe, so i did not believe to, but still alot of people believe about it
I just thinks about it because some one talk about Long Binh as a hint, and remind about some very special weapon,

he mean that in early 90s, Vietnamese can open the secret chamber in Long Binh Stock and found the nuke

I don't have enough permission to post any links here yet, but if you can use Vietnamese, you can search about Long Bình stock and the " broken arrow"- mũi tên gãy

I search a bit in vietnamese news...indeed some mention it. well, it can be true.

If there were nuclear bombs left over in VN, then most probably this one: B-61 fall bomb.

Germany as a non-nuclear weapon state has US nuclear bombs in the depots. the german airforce, Tornado fighter jet, is trained to carry a US made nuclear bomb: B61, against USSR and now Russia. the Tornado can fly at extremly low attitude (30m) and bring the bomb to the target undetected. so theoretically the southern vietnamese airforce could have been trained on bomb raids. It is awesome.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

I search a bit in vietnamese news...indeed some mention it. well, it can be true.

Germany as a non-nuclear weapon state has US nuclear bombs in the depots. the german airforce, Tornado fighter jet, is trained to carry a US made nuclear bomb: B61, against USSR and now Russia. the Tornado can fly at extremly low attitude (30m) and bring the bomb to the target undetected. so theoretically the southern vietnamese airforce could have been trained on bomb raids. It is awesome.

you drink to much Fristy man, you think to much, infact, I don't think US can make friend with VN when Vietnam still hold these nuke

 

[Carlosa]

I search a bit in vietnamese news...indeed some mention it. well, it can be true.

Germany as a non-nuclear weapon state has US nuclear bombs in the depots. the german airforce, Tornado fighter jet, is trained to carry a US made nuclear bomb: B61, against USSR and now Russia. the Tornado can fly at extremly low attitude (30m) and bring the bomb to the target undetected. so theoretically the southern vietnamese airforce could have been trained on bomb raids. It is awesome.

View attachment 183435


View attachment 183436

I can't find anything searching in English, can you post some of what you found?

 

[kangaroo]

That is the rumor i heard, but i did not believe, these nukes named " broken arrow" (may be 2) left in Long Binh stock ,
Also a rumor that Vietnamese can not open all the chamber in Long Binh, so they can not find the nuke yet, US have already make 1 secret operation in 2001 to retrive the "broken arrow", but they did not success, now Long Binh and Kim Boi are 2 areas which is highly protect by VPA.
It's not used against North Vietnam,but against USSR in the cold war ,but you know, It's hard to believe, so i did not believe to, but still alot of people believe about it
I just thinks about it because some one talk about Long Binh as a hint, and remind about some very special weapon,

he mean that in early 90s, Vietnamese can open the secret chamber in Long Binh Stock and found the nuke

I don't have enough permission to post any links here yet, but if you can use Vietnamese, you can search about Long Bình stock and the " broken arrow"- mũi tên gãy

i gave Long Binh as a hint because its partly related to the weapon that Vietnam will receive/develop in the future. the IBM report said they "expect" vietnam to pursuit nuclear warhead with assisstance to expand on the missile stock from India or Russia.
it also mentioned the possibility of biological/chemical weapon given the political will and regional circumstances

 

[Viet]

you drink to much Fristy man, you think to much, infact, I don't think US can make friend with VN when Vietnam still hold these nuke

LOL, bro, if any US nuclear bombs existed, we would have given back to unclea sam after finding it long time ago.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

LOL, bro, if any US nuclear bombs existed, we would have given back to unclea sam after finding it long time ago.

off course, I think that too