Vietnam Defence Forum

[Carlosa]

No I'm not goin around in circle. I only said I "suspect" that the Scorp/U214 is more silent than the Kilo. Then I begin to give arguments for it, such as the Hull analysis by research engineer or the AIP system which are currently not available for the Kilo. Even if it is only my suspicion, I still gave stronger arguments than yours.

You said "the kilo is actually more silent than them", so give me the acoustic signature data (even with the "defective" U214 acoustic signature data) for both so I can make a comparison and agree that your claim is correct. You were not just giving an opinion or a speculation, you said it "is actually more silent." So give me concrete evidence to show your statement is true or admit you were bluffing.



I don't care about your or mine favoritism or bias. I want to see proofs or good arguments. If you have no proofs, then why did you assert that "the kilo is actually more silent"??? if you say "I prefer kilo, I think its better" then I will have no problem, but you claim that it is actually more silent.

I did not disregard the US's view, what I ask was, how can the nick name "black hole" be a good proof that the kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214???



I don't know much about the Indonesian plan. Last I heard they signed contract to buy type 209 from SK. Its better to ask Indonesian members.

And how is this relevant to the debate between Kilo vs Scorp/214?



Significant? you know this how? can you give a reliable source other than wikipedia with a broken link to a 2008 webpage?



I gave you a reference to a peer-reviewed article and you gave me a wikipedia page with a reference to a broken link.

Identical problems? really? give me a reliable source to the specifics without a broken link. You know the Greek gave a huge lists of "problems," it would be surprise if they had "identical" problems. What really went on is still disputed. The Greek claims they are big issues, HDW claim they are minor that were easily rectified.

You and I neither know what the real reason was. But here are some evidence to discredit the Greeks claim:

-Greece's economy almost went bankrupt shortly after this dispute.
-While the Portuguese went a head and made a order, and until now did not complained about any major issues.
-Turkey also made an order for 6
-South Korea made a order for a bigger second batch. Their lawsuit only asked for compensation for "using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential." Firstly, they didn't file a lawsuit for not meeting specs or standards. It clearly say the German used them to correct faults. This suggest that the faults has been succesfuly rectified like I said, otherwise they would also add that to the lawsuit and they wouldn't make a second order.



Firstly, where is your evidence that the "problem" has not being fixed yet? it is clearly a faulty design? even now in 2014? I gave you a list that suggest why it is problem solved right now....So pls give me some arguments why it is "clearly" a faulty design that has not being fixed yet in 2014.

I don't want to think the Portuguese, Turks and S Koreans are that stupid...so give me some evidence pls.

Secondly, even if we assume that there are "noise" issue that haven't been resolved...do you still have evidence or proof to show that the kilo is actually more quiet"??? do you have data back up this assertion?? do you have the acoustic signature of both?



I don't care about mine or your bias...I'm still waiting for your arguments or evidence why the kilo is actually more silent than the Scorp/214.

Notice I haven't even touch upon the Scorpene yet, so your "faulty design" claim is even more weak there.

The Kilo is more silent than the 214 because the 214 has an unfixed noise problem that is unfixed because it requires a redesign of the sub, period!

You debate the same way as "grand" historian, when you don't like the arguments, you demand proof that you know is impossible or difficult for lay people to obtain.

You show me the acoustical data that shows your claim about the 214 and about the fact that the noise problem has been fixed and show me statements from South Korean officials where they say that there are no issues with the 214.

Why I bring up Indonesia? Because you bring up South Korea, etc, I can make the same argument as you, do you think the Indonesians are stupid? You are not informed enough about Indonesia's plans to buy the Kilo? Then inform yourself, my time is valuable, I already wasted enough of it with you. And stop using the South Koreans as a reference of a happy customer of the 214 when they are clearly not happy with it.

I'm done wasting time with you in this useless debate, you only accept what fits your preferences. Its like talking to a

Hehehehe brother don't get mad. You are acting like NiceGuy, you like to start argument with others but when you can no longer argue, you get mad. Are you guys brother?

It is simple, if you want to claim some facts, then back it up! If you're only giving opinions or speculation, then I don't mind.

Read again at the beginning, you're the one who started the debate. I was only talking with xesy and said that the Scorp/214 is better than kilo cause of better specs and I suspect they are more silent.

Then you jump in and challenged me to give details why it's better or more silent. I list the superior specs but you said ahhh specs are classified and not accurate blah blah (so why SK don't file lawsuit?).

I then told you its my speculation and give some arguments why it's more silent. I also said we both can't know for sure. BUT you still went ahead and claim the kilo is actually more silent.

I gave you some links and article to support my speculation and ask you to provide your evidence or argument for your factual claims. You then quote some journalist cliché and non academic website that doesn't even say anything about kilo being more silent. I pointed this out and you started to get mad and make even more unsupported factual claims. LOL

You challenged me to give arguments to support my speculation which I did. I then challenge you to give arguments for your factual claims. You get mad and say it's impossible... well then, don't go around making factual claims and challenging people.



See, making more factual claims without evidence. Is the noise problem in fact still unfixed even in 2014?? evidence where?



I only demand proofs for the factual claims that you've made. You say kilo is actually more silent, so show me your proofs.

I said I only suspected that Scorp/214 is more silent but still give you some solid arguments anyway. So I don't need these acoustic data. You made a factual claim that kilo is more silent so you're the one who needs the acoustic data.

SK didn't add anything about unfixed issues in their lawsuit. Contrarily, they said they were being used to "correct faults" which is a good indication it has been fixed. It is you who now need to provide evidences that it has not been fixed in 2014.



Unlike you I don't claim to know everything and make unsupported false claims. I know that Indonesia is under contract with SK for U209 but I don't make the same fake bluff like you that they are Right Now under negotiation for Kilos.

SK was bought up when you said U214 has many unresolved issues. Why SK don't put that in their lawsuit but went ahead to order more? their lawsuit only said they were being used to correct faults. This suggest it's indeed solved to a satisfactory standard. The onus is on you to show that it's currently not solved yet. Putting these symbols >> !!!!!! will not make your assertion proven. You should have just used "QED" it's a little better than "!!!"



You the one who started the debate and challenged me. When I challenge you back, you started to use "!!!!!!"

Don't get mad, it's only the Internet. With more time, you will get better at defending the VCP/VPA. Keep your hopes up.

Love,
Black Flag

Relax man, When did I get mad? I just don't want to keep wasting time.

I stated my opinions, I stated why and I said they are based on circumstantial evidence. You say I'm wrong? Then prove it! Show me the data!

You can't show the data for the same reason that I can't, we are not the manufactures of those subs, right? So we don't have the data to prove it either way.

As I said before, be happy with your opinions, I'm happy with mine, no need to keep wasting time for nothing.

Lots of love to you too

 

[Carlosa]

you are right. I overlooked the issue. the army needs to build something new. the place to be is probably here, Son Tra Peninsula, yes, near the mountain, not too far from Danang. With money and expertise from America, we can build a second Hawaii naval base

How was your Phu Quoc vacation?

Can't build an air base in Son Tra peninsula, the whole thing is a mountain, no flat land there. The areas next to Son Tra are the actual city and the ocean, there is no space there.

Son Tra actually is a beautiful green area with a protected park area where there is an actual dense jungle like in Africa or the Amazon, quite amazing to have it right next to the city. The port, naval base and the Song Thu shipyard are in Son Tra. The Song Thu shipyard is where the Gepard ships go for maintenance.

The only available area that I can think of would be west of Danang next to the mountains if there is enough space, but I'm not sure, otherwise it would it have to be further away.

Yes, Danang has a super strategic location for the south china sea, it deserves to have major naval and air bases, not small bases like it is now. Cam Ranh will continue to be the main naval base, but Danang should be a strong number two. It also needs to be a big base for the coast guard and the fisheries surveillance force.

Phu Quoc was ok, that island has a good future, it needs 3 or 4 years to finish all the roads and infrastructure, new resorts, etc and then it will be like Phuket. I ate fish up to my ears there.

Here are some pics of how chinese air bases use the tunnels in the mountains, I think VN should do the same.

 

[Viet]

@Carlosa

here is another view on Vietnam-China current relationship from a German perspective. Also, it covers the latest escalation, actual reconciliation attempt and the visit of the special envoy Nguyen Phu Trong to Beijing. the conclusion: the row has changed the way Vietnamese perceive China. Unfortunately more to the negative territory.

I am surprised of so many Vietnam experts.

Dr. Martin Grossheim is Adjunct Professor at the Department of Southeast Studies at Passau University/Germany. His research and teaching interests focus on modern Vietnamese history.

Vietnam seeking to balance relations with China | Asia | DW.DE | 25.08.2014

 

[Carlosa]

Another good article to read:

Indian FM wants Vietnam to be India’s security-defense partner. Thanhnien news

Indian FM wants Vietnam to be India’s security-defense partner | Politics | Thanh Nien Daily

@Carlosa

here is another view on Vietnam-China current relationship from a German perspective. Also, it covers the latest escalation, actual reconciliation attempt and the visit of the special envoy Nguyen Phu Trong to Beijing. the conclusion: the row has changed the way Vietnamese perceive China. Unfortunately more to the negative territory.

I am surprised of so many Vietnam experts.



Vietnam seeking to balance relations with China | Asia | DW.DE | 25.08.2014

Good article, I think the only useful purpose of sending the envoy to china is to gain time because its useless to expect that the chinese will honor any agreement, they will break it at the moment that is convenient for them to do so.

 

[Carlosa]

Another good article to read, this one is very important for Vietnam, It seems like the US is ready to flex muscle with the chinese and help Vietnam:

US flags China as a maritime outlaw. Asia Times Online

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/CHIN-01-250814.html

 

[NiceGuy]

bro, what is your plan if the chinese return with more oil rigs and warships and intrude into our EEZ and do whatever they please?

what is your plan if they introduce ADIZ and start banning our fishermen from working within their 9-dash line?

you are one of the voices who opposes allying with America. and you are in the minority. I posted a poll recently conducted in Vietnam. the majority sees China is a threat (not surprisingly) and wants an alliance with America.

You wrongly assume allying with America equalling to surrending of sovereignty. No, it is not. It is a step to strengthen our defence and offensive capacity. Sure, you are right, everything has a cost, nothing is free in this world. but that does not mean we should sit idle and do nothing. risk comes with reward.

Further, you make the mistake by believing America would abandon Vietnam if China offers a better deal in one day. Because if America does so, her allies beginning from Germany to Japan to Philippines would lose their trust to the superpower. Will the US risk to lose her credibility for a local strategic gain? well, nobody can predict the future, but betrayal of an ally is a very serious issue. No matter what, we should implement steps to prevent a such fallout. Just in case.

today thing is not comparable to what happened in 1979 when America supported China cause. back then the US had been hostile to Vietnam and sought ways to compensate the humiliated defeat.

Why dont u read my post before asking me ?? Why my friends, the normal soldiers, working for military petroleum company has just got an order to transfer to Spratly isl at any time ?? Will he come there just to sit and watch China oil rig ??

And u forget that VN control the most important part of SCS(east sea), if we cover it with sea mine, then China economy plus many countries which can not trade with China will collapse ,too. If China start a war, their economy will collapse before they can harm VN.

None of my friend including many guys working for the Govt. plus guys serving in Vn army think VN need US troops. So u have to wait until me and my friend-their families-my family all die in the next war first , then think abt US troops in Vn later

On PDF, Im in minority, but in real life, Im in majority, u can come back to VN and ask people in the North who have son serving in the army or working for the Govt.(dont ask the Catholic or Christian) if they want US troop in VN or not . Currently, Im living in the North, near Ha Noi.

 

[Viet]

Another good article to read:

Indian FM wants Vietnam to be India’s security-defense partner | Politics | Thanh Nien Daily

that is indeed very promising. India media speculates India and Vietnam are likely to sign key agreements during the visit of the President to Vietnam next month.
Key pacts to be signed during President's visit to Vietnam | Brahmand News

Good article, I think the only useful purpose of sending the envoy to china is to gain time because its useless to expect that the chinese will honor any agreement, they will break it at the moment that is convenient for them to do so.

I am afraid you are right. Chinese want to dictate, not negotiate.

 

[BoQ77]

Why dont u read my post before asking me ?? Why my friends, the normal soldiers, working for military petroleum company has just got an order to transfer to Spratly isl at any time ?? Will he come there just to sit and watch China oil rig ??

And u forget that VN control the most important part of SCS(east sea), if we cover it with sea mine, then China economy plus many countries which can not trade with China will collapse ,too. If China start a war, their economy will collapse before they can harm VN.

None of my friend including many guys working for the Govt. plus guys serving in Vn army think VN need US troops. So u have to wait until me and my friend-their families-my family all die in the next war first , then think abt US troops in Vn later

On PDF, Im in minority, but in real life, Im in majority, u can come back to VN and ask people in the North who have son serving in the army or working for the Govt.(dont ask the Catholic or Christian) if they want US troop in VN or not . Currently, Im living in the North, near Ha Noi.

We don't want to be called a threat to freedom of navigating.

 

[NiceGuy]

We don't want to be called a threat to freedom of navigating.

If China or other nations start the war against VN first, then they r the threat, not VN, and must be eliminated by all means.

Update news:

India to train Vietnamese pilots to fly Sukhoi fighters
August 27, 2014 Alexander Korablinov, RIR
New Delhi is also considering the sale of BrahMos missiles to the Southeast Asian country, although no deal is imminent.

By 2015, Vietnam will have a fleet of 36 Russian-manufactured Su-30MK2 fighter jets. Source: AP
India and Vietnam are likely to sign a defence agreement, under which Vietnamese pilots will be trained to operate Russian-built Sukhoi fighters, sources in the Indian Defence Ministry told RIR. The agreement is likely to be signed when Indian President Pranab Mukherjee visits the Southeast Asian country in September.


Vietnam looking to purchase BrahMos cruise missiles

The details are being finalised during the on-going visit of Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj to Vietnam, the sources said. Vietnam had earlier asked India to train its defence personnel in using Russia-built Kilo class submarines along with the Su-30 fighters that the country uses.

By 2015, Vietnam will have a fleet of 36 Russian-manufactured Su-30MK2 fighter jets. The Indian Air Force (IAF) operates a fleet of Su-30MKIs, air superiority fighters jointly developed by Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Malaysian pilots have also been trained by the IAF. Last year, India agreed to train 500 Vietnamese submariners to operate Kilo submarines that Vietnam will receive in 2016 from Russia.

India will also consider the sale of the Indo-Russian BrahMos missiles to Vietnam, although a deal is not imminent, the sources added. They said Vietnam is keen to procure these missiles to combat a potential military threat from China. Relations between Hanoi and Beijing have cooled during the last few years because of disputed islands on the South China Sea, which are believed be rich in energy deposits. China claims territorial ownership of the entire sea and its islets and has similar disputes with many of its neighbours.


Read section:
Defence and Security
Indian Defence Ministry sources added that while Vietnam is viewed as one of India’s strongest allies in Southeast Asia, the China factor would be a key in deciding whether to sell BrahMos missiles. “We understand their concerns, but then China is not ready to appreciate our concerns about the threat from Pakistan,” a Defence Ministry official told RIR on the condition of anonymity since he was not authorised to talk to the media. The official denied that Vietnam would be used as a bargaining chip with China, while adding that a few South American countries also approached India for the possible sale of BrahMos missiles.

India to train Vietnamese pilots to fly Sukhoi fighters | Russia & India Report

Update news:

India to train Vietnamese pilots to fly Sukhoi fighters
August 27, 2014 Alexander Korablinov, RIR
New Delhi is also considering the sale of BrahMos missiles to the Southeast Asian country, although no deal is imminent.

By 2015, Vietnam will have a fleet of 36 Russian-manufactured Su-30MK2 fighter jets. Source: AP
India and Vietnam are likely to sign a defence agreement, under which Vietnamese pilots will be trained to operate Russian-built Sukhoi fighters, sources in the Indian Defence Ministry told RIR. The agreement is likely to be signed when Indian President Pranab Mukherjee visits the Southeast Asian country in September.


Vietnam looking to purchase BrahMos cruise missiles

The details are being finalised during the on-going visit of Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj to Vietnam, the sources said. Vietnam had earlier asked India to train its defence personnel in using Russia-built Kilo class submarines along with the Su-30 fighters that the country uses.

By 2015, Vietnam will have a fleet of 36 Russian-manufactured Su-30MK2 fighter jets. The Indian Air Force (IAF) operates a fleet of Su-30MKIs, air superiority fighters jointly developed by Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Malaysian pilots have also been trained by the IAF. Last year, India agreed to train 500 Vietnamese submariners to operate Kilo submarines that Vietnam will receive in 2016 from Russia.

India will also consider the sale of the Indo-Russian BrahMos missiles to Vietnam, although a deal is not imminent, the sources added. They said Vietnam is keen to procure these missiles to combat a potential military threat from China. Relations between Hanoi and Beijing have cooled during the last few years because of disputed islands on the South China Sea, which are believed be rich in energy deposits. China claims territorial ownership of the entire sea and its islets and has similar disputes with many of its neighbours.


Read section:
Defence and Security
Indian Defence Ministry sources added that while Vietnam is viewed as one of India’s strongest allies in Southeast Asia, the China factor would be a key in deciding whether to sell BrahMos missiles. “We understand their concerns, but then China is not ready to appreciate our concerns about the threat from Pakistan,” a Defence Ministry official told RIR on the condition of anonymity since he was not authorised to talk to the media. The official denied that Vietnam would be used as a bargaining chip with China, while adding that a few South American countries also approached India for the possible sale of BrahMos missiles.

India to train Vietnamese pilots to fly Sukhoi fighters | Russia & India Report

 

[Viet]

@NiceGuy

I see double in your last post.
latest signs point to de-escalation and returning to negotiation table.

China, Vietnam commit to negotiating sea disputes after Chinese oil rig sparked tensions | Fox News
Xi eyes mended China-Vietnam ties - Xinhua | English.news.cn

 

[Carlosa]

@NiceGuy

I see double in your last post.
latest signs point to de-escalation and returning to negotiation table.

China, Vietnam commit to negotiating sea disputes after Chinese oil rig sparked tensions | Fox News
Xi eyes mended China-Vietnam ties - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Need to negotiate to buy time to keep rearming and to prepare for the next oil rig; I hope a certain faction in the Vietnamese government understand that that's the only reason to negotiate.

 

[NiceGuy]

@NiceGuy

I see double in your last post.
latest signs point to de-escalation and returning to negotiation table.

China, Vietnam commit to negotiating sea disputes after Chinese oil rig sparked tensions | Fox News
Xi eyes mended China-Vietnam ties - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Dont know why can not not see the Edit button on that post , so I will fix it next time.

VN is ready for the worst case if it happen, this time, we wont just use marine police force but real armed forces with serious weapons and well trained soldiers if China rig dare to come back.

Currently, VN economy - VN stock market r quite good now (VN index is abt 633 today ) with a huge investment from foreigner investors who believe VN will be a stable & safe market .

 

[World Citizen]

Dont know why can not not see the Edit button on that post , so I will fix it next time.

VN is ready for the worst case if it happen, this time, we wont just use marine police force but real armed forces with serious weapons and well trained soldiers if China rig dare to come back.

Currently, VN economy - VN stock market r quite good now (VN index is abt 633 today ) with a huge investment from foreigner investors who believe VN will be a stable & safe market .

Never happens, but i hope the Chinese coming back with the oil rig again, few more time would be good .

 

[xesy]

Never happens, but i hope the Chinese coming back with the oil rig again, few more time would be good .

Doubt it. It might happen sooner or later, but VN is the most suitable first "stepping stone" for China to prove its power and authority as a super power. But the rig trick won't work so well this time around, when VN is prepared, especially for the "worst case".

 

[AViet]

[quote=" None of my friend including many guys working for the Govt. plus guys serving in Vn army think VN need US troops. So u have to wait until me and my friend-their families-my family all die in the next war first , then think abt US troops in Vn later

On PDF, Im in minority, but in real life, Im in majority, u can come back to VN and ask people in the North who have son serving in the army or working for the Govt.(dont ask the Catholic or Christian) if they want US troop in VN or not . Currently, Im living in the North, near Ha Noi.[/quote].

I think you are right. US troops in Vietnam will never happen, at least in our life.

A 1000 - 2000 US troops can do nothing against China, in case of war. US will not declare a total war against China just because their 1000 soldiers are killed. But 1000 - 2000 US troops in Vietnam will be a green light for "color revolution", like in Ukraine or Syria or Lybia or Iraq, or any country where the US set their foots in.

I do not blame the US. They are currently the No.1 power and they have to do anything to retain their crown, including anything to compete against China. But they will only use Vietnam as a card.

After the "color revolution", if it ever happens and succeed, although I believe it will have very little chance, the new government can sell big part of Vietnam to China in exchange for money and support, because no new government can exist without the support of China. And not only Hoang Sa, Trương Sa islands, possibly big parts of Cao Bang, Lang Son and Quang Ninh provinces will be ceded to China as well.

At the moment, only the current government have the will and people's support to fight against China's aggression. But some US direct interference, or any third country's, may turn to disaster.

We have lived for thousand years with China, and we have to live for at least next several thousand years, until human find some other planets to live. Our rich history can teach us.

Be careful.