Vietnam builds military muscle to face China

[applesauce]

Actually China can take Vietnam, quite easily.

Different phases of a war requires different things. China cannot occupy part of mainland Vietnam and to think we could is suicidal.

The two Iraq conflicts both proved what a modern army could do to a less advanced military.
The second Iraq war could be said to be more successful, but they had a different objective, occupation and the removal of Saddam.

It turned the war political. Pure military conflicts would only need to account for military power. With that said, China has the decisive advantage in both numbers and tech, as well as training and organization, what other way can this possibly turn out.

i had not wanted to divert to a different topic of whether or not "winning" by whatever metric is easy or possible. but just wanted to say his casualty figures are completely unrealistic.

 

[Aepsilons]

Viets ferocious? Our nippon friend here must think the PLA are not capable dealing with them. Boy talking about underestimating the PLA's capabilities , are Japanese forces also very ferocious that it scares the sh!t out of us? In a full blown war our Airforce,Navy and Army totally outclass that midget. Don't even try to convince us that China will suffer equal casualties as those weaklings.

Calm down bro, i'm not underestimating the PLA or PLAN, am just playing devil's advocate here; to be objective.

Vietnam was able to resist the super power US, yes, but that was because the Americans don't know how to win a real political battle. China has no desire to take Vietnam, and even less in a regime change. If wiping out a Communist government by another doesn't sound insane to you, I don't know what does.

Any China-Vietnam war, will be a war on the seas, and maybe minor skirmish on the border. China has no stomach for heavy losses while Vietnamese leadership still want to preserve their power, and can't afford to put China into a position where we have no choice but to advance. They can lose and spin the whole conflict later, it's an easy sell.


I'll say what Li HongZhang said to Weng TongHe, even if China is justified in a Japanese Qing war, without new ships and ammunition, they don't mean crap. Artillery rounds destroy ships, not a person's will to win.

Today's Vietnam cannot convince its people to fight to the last man anymore, while China cannot hope to remain internationally relevant if China were to inflict too much damage onto Vietnamese people.

So all in all, Vietnam cannot hope to win, because the situation calls for a short war, in those kind of battles, technology plays a far bigger role than anything else. It is only the occupying stages do resilience actually matter, but looking at today's world, it's unlikely to ever reach there.

So what you're alluding to is that in the end pragmatism will win the day, yes? War is a foregone conclusion.

i had not wanted to divert to a different topic of whether or not "winning" by whatever metric is easy or possible. but just wanted to say his casualty figures are completely unrealistic.

Okay, if my figures are unrealistic, then what would a realistic figure be then?

 

[terranMarine]

Calm down bro, i'm not underestimating the PLA or PLAN, am just playing devil's advocate here; to be objective.



So what you're alluding to is that in the end pragmatism will win the day, yes? War is a foregone conclusion.

objective? you call that objective? I think you need to reassess the true capabilities of a fully modernized PLA,PLAN,PLAAF and our 2nd Artillery assets. Just by looking at the infograph of our Naval forces compared to that midget, the sea battle will be a total annihilation right at this moment. In 20-30 years from now your Japanese Navy will be way behind PLAN when we have dozens of 054A, 52C/D, 055 , nuclear subs, 4-5 AC , backed by fleets of J-20, J-15.
I think your pride has clouded your objective judgement of what lies ahead.

 

[Aepsilons]

objective? you call that objective? I think you need to reassess the true capabilities of a fully modernized PLA,PLAN,PLAAF and our 2nd Artillery assets. Just by looking at the infograph of our Naval forces compared to that midget, the sea battle will be a total annihilation right at this moment. In 20-30 years from now your Japanese Navy will be way behind PLAN when we have dozens of 054A, 52C/D, 055 , nuclear subs, 4-5 AC , backed by fleets of J-20, J-15.
I think your pride has clouded your objective judgement of what lies ahead.

hahaha,okay bro, okay, i guess i was wrong then.


*bows with a smile*

 

[VALKRYIE]

a numbers game? thats a game china won't lose

i highly doubt this, iraq had 375,000 man army, and how many casualties did the us take wrecking them? heck even in the 70s when vietnam was supported by the soviet union and china the US has less than 60,000 KIAs.

now im not saying that the PLA is as strong as the US ARMY/Marines, but 33.33 times worst, especially considering vietnam had active support(as in actual pilots and men fighting) of a superpower and a major regional power durng the vietnam war? i have a seriously problem with that.



chinese are pretty much apolitical. and his thought obviously do not a majority opinion make.

The Last Time China Got Into a Fight With Vietnam, It Was a Disaster

David Stout @david_m_stout
May 15, 2014

In the winter of 1978, when Deng Xiaoping made his threat of a “lesson,” more than 80,000 Chinese troops were sent across the border into Vietnam. Chinese Deputy Defense Minister Su Yu boasted of being able to take Hanoi in a week, but the untested and under-equipped People’s Liberation Army (PLA) met fierce resistance from battle-hardened Vietnamese forces deployed across the frontier’s limestone karsts. The Chinese were slaughtered by local militia from positions that had been utilized for centuries against invaders from the north.

“More Chinese soldiers were getting killed because they were fighting like it was the old times,” says Vietnamese veteran Nguyen Huu Hung, who witnessed the PLA’s human waves being mown down near the city of Lang Son. “They were in lines and just keep moving ahead … they didn’t run away.”

It would take just six weeks for Beijing to call off its “self-defensive counteroffensive.” Teaching the Vietnamese a lesson turned out to be a costly affair. Official casualty statistics have never been released by either Beijing or Hanoi; however, analysts have estimate that as many as 50,000 Chinese soldiers died during the confrontation.

“I heard that [China] said they wanted to teach Vietnam a lesson, but I can’t see what the lesson was,” says Hung. “Our job was to fight against them. But the losses, to be honest, were huge.”

South China Sea: The Last Time China and Vietnam Fought, It Was Hell

 

[beijingwalker]

I can find tons of articles showing that China was the clear winner of that war. Many US strategists believed that China tricked Vietnam into that war and used that war to achieve several geo political goals of Dengxiaoping. Deng wanted to have friendly relationship with the west and ASEAN countries which could enable Chinese products to enter their huge market and attract their investments, to do so China chose to spank Vietnam to humiliate USSR by showing that USSR can't even defend its treaty allies.. In the two weeks war China achieved all the long term hidden goals, US and Asean countries opened their market and investment started to pour in China. China successfully isolated Vietnam in its neighborhood and wreak havoc to North Vietnam and completely paralysed its economy, USSR just stood by and didn't do anything. Deng's short and bloody war enabled China to embark 3 decades long break neck growth development and directly resulted in today's prosperity and Vietnam suffered decades long economic stagnation and political isolation.

 

[Rechoice]

yea, why dont you listen to your own words.

soviets soldiers and pilots in vietnam:

USSR ‘secret' Vietnam soldiers speak out — RT News

chinese, mainly engineers but also missile operators:

Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War: Military Information You're Not ... - James F. Dunnigan, Albert A. Nofi - Google Books


and again, as your acknowledged yourself, the point is during the vietnam war a superpower was directly involved in countering another, more than just providing intelligence or political support, they provided materials, arms, and yes even men in significant quantities.

I said that Soviet technicain had trained our techinicians and soldiers how to use such modern weapon on the battle fields, mostly for SAM 2 counter US airforces.. We didn't let them get risk to join in real fighting. There was no necessary.

For the pilots, all of Vietnemese pilot were trained in Soviet Union before they could tuned back home to attande for fight counter US airforces.

Soviet veteran Techinician in Vietnam war visited Vietnam recently. They turned back where they have trained our officiers, soldiers how manipulate such miissles in battle field.

 

[Place Of Space]

I can find tons of articles showing that China was the clear winner of that war. Many US strategists believed that China tricked Vietnam into that war and used that war to achieve several geo political goals of Dengxiaoping. Deng wanted to have friendly relationship with the west and ASEAN countries which could enable Chinese products to enter their huge market and attract their investments, to do so China chose to spank Vietnam to humiliate USSR by showing that USSR can't even defend its treaty allies.. In the two weeks war China achieved all the long term hidden goals, US and Asean countries opened their market and investment started to pour in China. China successfully isolated Vietnam in its neighborhood and wreak havoc to North Vietnam and completely paralysed its economy, USSR just stood by and didn't do anything. Deng's short and bloody war enabled China to embark 3 decades long break neck growth development and directly resulted in today's prosperity and Vietnam suffered decades long economic stagnation and political isolation.

Thas was a totally wrong war in long term. In 1979, war was not the only choice for China. Vietnam had occupied Cambodia and Laos, at that time, regardless what the USA would react, but China should try to push UN to deal with the Vietnam invasion.

 

[Aepsilons]

I can find tons of articles showing that China was the clear winner of that war. Many US strategists believed that China tricked Vietnam into that war and used that war to achieve several geo political goals of Dengxiaoping. Deng wanted to have friendly relationship with the west and ASEAN countries which could enable Chinese products to enter their huge market and attract their investments, to do so China chose to spank Vietnam to humiliate USSR by showing that USSR can't even defend its treaty allies.. In the two weeks war China achieved all the long term hidden goals, US and Asean countries opened their market and investment started to pour in China. China successfully isolated Vietnam in its neighborhood and wreak havoc to North Vietnam and completely paralysed its economy, USSR just stood by and didn't do anything. Deng's short and bloody war enabled China to embark 3 decades long break neck growth development and directly resulted in today's prosperity and Vietnam suffered decades long economic stagnation and political isolation.

Can you provide graphs and more quantitative data on materials and losses of the PLA during the 对越自卫反击战.

Thas was a totally wrong war in long term. In 1979, war was not the only choice for China. Vietnam had occupied Cambodia and Laos, at that time, regardless what the USA would react, but China should try to push UN to deal with the Vietnam invasion.

However the objective of the war failed miserably, didn't it? I mean Vietnam continued to occupy Cambodia till 1991.

Cambodian–Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thas was a totally wrong war in long term. In 1979, war was not the only choice for China. Vietnam had occupied Cambodia and Laos, at that time, regardless what the USA would react, but China should try to push UN to deal with the Vietnam invasion.

Laos , to this day, remains a part of the Vietnamese umbrella, however.

 

[beijingwalker]

Can you provide graphs and more quantitative data on materials and losses of the PLA during the 对越自卫反击战.

All listed on Wikipedia

Anyway it was a war happened almost half a century ago. it doesn't prove anything in today's scenario, back then China just came out of the Cultural Revolution, Chinese economy was a mess and was even smaller than India's and PLA soldiers still used WWII weapons which often wouldn't fire due to lack of maintainence, they were not much more powerful than a hand stick a lot of times.. Today's PLA is much more modernized and gained tremendous fire power, should a war break out, China doesn't even need to send troops into Vietnam, with the world's biggest industrial base, China now gains the ability to churn out all kinds of weapons in thousands everyday if necessary,just by carpet bombing and ruining their economy China can easily bring Vietnam to its knees. no ground troops needed, China only needs to make sure to annihlate Vietnamese navy and air force. that's a easy job.

 

[Place Of Space]

Can you provide graphs and more quantitative data on materials and losses of the PLA during the 对越自卫反击战.



However the objective of the war failed miserably, didn't it? I mean Vietnam continued to occupy Cambodia till 1991.

Cambodian–Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Laos , to this day, remains a part of the Vietnamese umbrella, however.

No, in the first place, China entering into the war didn't target at Vietnam, but the USSR. Vietnam actually had occupied Cambodia for months before 1979. What made Dengxiaoping decided to enter? The USSR-Vietnam ally agreement.
If Vietnam and USSR didn't sign ally agreement, it's meaningless China attack Vietnam, because USSR didn't have to take any responsiblity for Vietnam. But with the agreement, Vietnam could be a burden to USSR. The result also show it. USSR was very hesitate, it didn't start a war against China because of Vietnam. USSR's influence in Southeast reduced to lowest.
Conclusion, China-Vietnam war was not for land, for resources, it's big geopolitics of cold war.

No, in the first place, China entering into the war didn't target at Vietnam, but the USSR. Vietnam actually had occupied Cambodia for months before 1979. What made Dengxiaoping decided to enter? The USSR-Vietnam ally agreement.
If Vietnam and USSR didn't sign ally agreement, it's meaningless China attack Vietnam, because USSR didn't have to take any responsiblity for Vietnam. But with the agreement, Vietnam could be a burden to USSR. The result also show it. USSR was very hesitate, it didn't start a war against China because of Vietnam. USSR's influence in Southeast reduced to lowest.
Conclusion, China-Vietnam war was not for land, for resources, it's big geopolitics of cold war.

Why I said it's a totally wrong war? Because cold war is USA and USSR's thing, China should have stand by, and kept caution. It's USA who need to solve the USSR-Vietnam ally, not China who was to deal with it. China attacked Vietnam, meant China attack itself.

 

[Rechoice]

No, in the first place, China entering into the war didn't target at Vietnam, but the USSR. Vietnam actually had occupied Cambodia for months before 1979. What made Dengxiaoping decided to enter? The USSR-Vietnam ally agreement.
If Vietnam and USSR didn't sign ally agreement, it's meaningless China attack Vietnam, because USSR didn't have to take any responsiblity for Vietnam. But with the agreement, Vietnam could be a burden to USSR. The result also show it. USSR was very hesitate, it didn't start a war against China because of Vietnam. USSR's influence in Southeast reduced to lowest.
Conclusion, China-Vietnam war was not for land, for resources, it's big geopolitics of cold war.

If China didn't provided Khmer Rouge weapon and military advisers and Khmer Rouge didn't invaded into our soil and killed brutally our people. Vietnam no needed to occoupation Cambodia in 1978.

Problem here is that China would like to take position of USA in South East Asia after USA withdraval from Vietnam 1973. There is true intention of China.

 

[Place Of Space]

If China didn't provided Khmer Rouge weapon and military advisers and Khmer Rouge didn't invaded into our soil and killed brutally our people. Vietnam no needed to occoupation Cambodia in 1978.

Problem here is that China would like to take position of USA in South East Asia after USA withdraval from Vietnam 1973. There is true intention of China.

Because Vietnam failed to annex Cambodia, so you stated the reason ( of invasion Cambodia ) this way. But the truth is not what you state.
Cambodia was part of Vietnam in some historical period, at least a closed ally or vassal kingdom. I can understand why Vietnam wanted to annex Cambodia. The problem was, when coming into 1970's, the era had changed, Vietnam already hadn't the ability to control or divide the area, politics by itself. Regardless of western international law, Vietnam and Cambodia were two parallel parts of France, in this case, Vietnam lacked the law supports to annex Cambodia. That's the reason.

 

[William Hung]

to do so China chose to spank Vietnam to humiliate USSR by showing that USSR can't even defend its treaty allies.. In the two weeks war China achieved all the long term hidden goals, US and Asean countries opened their market and investment started to pour in China. China successfully isolated Vietnam in its neighborhood and wreak havoc to North Vietnam and completely paralysed its economy, USSR just stood by and didn't do anything.

You humiliated the USSR by showing that it can’t defend its ally?

Why would the USSR need to intervene when thousands of the PLA soldiers got slaughtered within weeks, after which the whole PLA decided to withdraw its entire force from Vietnam? If Vietnam was occupied for 10 years, then yes, I would have ridiculed the USSR. But that was not the case, your PLA had already decided to withdraw only after a few weeks.

In fact, it was China that wasn’t able to defend its Cambodian ally, when it just “stood by” and watch its ally Cambodia being occupied for the next 10 years after your “spiritual victory”, while the PLA only lasted a few weeks in VN. Now you are using your Ah Q power to spin it around and claim that its the USSR that got “humiliated” for not being able to defend its Viet ally. lol

And here is another funny fact: after the PLA withdrew back to China, it decided to mine its own border (which now threaten your own civilians). That says it all.

PLA to clear mines along China-Vietnam border - Global Times

 

[beijingwalker]

You humiliated the USSR by showing that it can’t defend its ally?

Why would the USSR need to intervene when thousands of the PLA soldiers got slaughtered within weeks, after which the whole PLA decided to withdraw its entire force from Vietnam?

It was China that wasn’t able to defend its Cambodian ally, when it just “stood by” and watch its ally Cambodia being occupied for the next 10 years after your “spiritual victory”, while the PLA only lasted a few weeks in VN. Now you are using your Ah Q power to spin it around and claim that its the USSR that got “humiliated” for not being able to defend its Viet ally. lol

And here is another funny fact: after the PLA withdrew back to China, it decided to mine its own border (which now threaten your own civilians). That says it all.

PLA to clear mines along China-Vietnam border - Global Times

USSR and Vietnam were treaty bound and China and Cambodia were not, so we had no treaty responsibility to intervene. and Vietnam suffered much more casualties than China, both military personnel and civilians, the short war entirely went on in Vietnam soil and the whole North Vietnam was destroyed in 2 weeks while Chinese side has no damage at all where people still lived a normal life. China achieved all her strategic goals and Vietnam lost everything.